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Author Topic:   Did God say it, or did you say it?
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 46 of 127 (548625)
02-28-2010 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Peg
02-28-2010 5:45 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
Peg writes:
Genesis 1:5 'the light he called day' The 12 hour period is called a day
Genesis 2:4 'in the day that God created the heaven and earth' All the days are called 1 day.
Isaiah 1:1 'in the days of Uzziah, Jothan, Ahaz, Hezekiah' the lifetimes of 4 consecutive kings.
2Peter 3:7 'the day of judgement' which is a 1,000 year period
Gen 1:5 - he also named the night which would be the other 12 hours (but your point is proven with the word YOM in that context)
Gen 2:4 - not sure what version you are using that verse for but the NIV isn't even close to that translation
Isaiah 1:1 - clearly the Bible clarifies in this case what 'days' refers to. It's not left up for interpretation. Days refers to the kings lifetimes.
2 Peter - ditto, the Bible clarifies what is meant in this case
The last two verses prove what I tried saying a couple of posts ago. Unless it's actually clarified in Scripture, YOM is a day, nothing more, nothing less. The Bible does a tremendous job in clarifying when this doesn't apply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Peg, posted 02-28-2010 5:45 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Peg, posted 02-28-2010 6:25 PM Flyer75 has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 47 of 127 (548627)
02-28-2010 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Flyer75
02-28-2010 5:57 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
Flyer75 writes:
The last two verses prove what I tried saying a couple of posts ago. Unless it's actually clarified in Scripture, YOM is a day, nothing more, nothing less.
no, the hebrew word YOM stands for any length of time. Thats all.
In english, a day can also be a longer period of time more then 24 hours.
If an old person tells you a story that begins with "back in my day" , you understand that he is not speaking about a specific 24 hour day but rather the years of his life when he was a younger person.
I dont understand why no one gets this point about Yom. ????

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Flyer75, posted 02-28-2010 5:57 PM Flyer75 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by killinghurts, posted 02-28-2010 8:35 PM Peg has not replied
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killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 48 of 127 (548637)
02-28-2010 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by kbertsche
02-25-2010 8:55 AM


quote:
Not at all. Why does an "element of artistic license" disqualify it as a good basis for interpretation?
Because it may not be what God meant to say, if you "make it up" which is what an artistic license is then you don't know if it is really what God meant.
quote:
Surgery is also an art. Do you ask the surgeon to "verify" all of his methods?
Yes, wouldn't you check to see if a doctor is experienced and has been involved in many successful operations before going under the knife? - you see that is measurable - you can't just make that up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by kbertsche, posted 02-25-2010 8:55 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
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killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 49 of 127 (548641)
02-28-2010 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Peg
02-28-2010 6:25 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
quote:
I dont understand why no one gets this point about Yom. ????
I think the confusion arises around the fact that the interpretation, as you put it, is so broad it can mean literally any length of time. Thus *any* specific interpretation cannot ever be claimed as the absolute 'truth'... under that definition, 6 days could really mean six days (in the YEC example), or 4 billion years (in those religions that accept science, where they deem it fitting of course).
Given such a broad concept, how can one organization claim to even know the truth, let alone have an understanding of God's meaning?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Peg, posted 02-28-2010 6:25 PM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Flyer75, posted 02-28-2010 9:01 PM killinghurts has not replied

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 50 of 127 (548645)
02-28-2010 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by killinghurts
02-28-2010 8:35 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
killinghurts writes:
Given such a broad concept, how can one organization claim to even know the truth, let alone have an understanding of God's meaning?
killinghurts and peg.....
Peg, I understand what you are saying about the word YOM, I really do. But I am just of the understanding that it's a stretch to think that in the historical writings of Genesis, it means anything other then the literal day. Again, any other time in the Bible, it clarifies if it means something else. The New Testament writers understood this. You gave two examples where it was clarified what YOM meant. I understand this.
Please show me an example where YOM is used to mean a million years in the Bible......
Killinghurts, one, I won't claim someone is not a Christian if they don't believe in the 6 day creation or if they are not a YEC. Two, Genesis was read literally throughout history as a literal 6 day creation up until about the Age of Enlightenment. I'm sure there were some abstract theories before the AoE but really nothing took hold until that period came along. You surely can't find one New Testament writer that mentions that the creation was thousands or millions of years and they could have chosen to use a word in Greek that indicated such but they didn't. So, again, for me, its the totality of the circumstances. I just see a complete LACK of Biblical evidence that these days were anything other then well....a day. If the only evidence we have is what Peg is proposing, that the word YOM, can mean more then a literal day, and that means that the creation days were millions of years old, well, it won't convince me. Just my opinion.
Edited by Flyer75, : No reason given.
Edited by Flyer75, : No reason given.
Edited by Flyer75, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by killinghurts, posted 02-28-2010 8:35 PM killinghurts has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Peg, posted 02-28-2010 9:59 PM Flyer75 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 51 of 127 (548653)
02-28-2010 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Peg
02-28-2010 5:45 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
Hi Peg,
Peg writes:
YOM does not stand for a specific length of time. It is a word to describe time in general....nothing specific.
Peg would you please explain to me why your definition of day is better than the one God gave in Genesis 1:5?
Peg writes:
you know i love a challenge :wink:
Genesis 1:5 'the light he called day' The 12 hour period is called a day
Genesis 2:4 'in the day that God created the heaven and earth' All the days are called 1 day.
Isaiah 1:1 'in the days of Uzziah, Jothan, Ahaz, Hezekiah' the lifetimes of 4 consecutive kings.
2Peter 3:7 'the day of judgement' which is a 1,000 year period
Number 1
Moses writes:
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
God called the light portion day.
God called the darkness night.
God called the one light portion and one dark portion day.
God was very specifc.
Nmber 2
Moses writes:
Gen 2:4 These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
The heavens and the earth was created in Genesis 1:1. Which was a completed action that was declared to have taken place.
Therefore "in the day" spoken of has nothing to do with all the days in Genesis 1:8 through Genesis 2:3.
Number 3
What does the days of Uzziah have to do with the length of a day?
What does the days of Jothan, have to do with the length of a day?
What does the days of Ahaz have to do with the length of a day?
What does the days of Hezekiah have to do with the length of a day?
Number 4
Peter writes:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Where does that say that the day of judgment is 1000 years long.
Oh I know what you use.
Peter writes:
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Where does that verse say a day is the same as a thousand years?
Where does that verse say a thousand years is the same as a day?
It does say that as far as God is concerned they are the same but God is not a creature of time He does not experience time.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Peg, posted 02-28-2010 5:45 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Peg, posted 02-28-2010 10:04 PM ICANT has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 52 of 127 (548655)
02-28-2010 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Flyer75
02-28-2010 9:01 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
Flyer75 writes:
You surely can't find one New Testament writer that mentions that the creation was thousands or millions of years and they could have chosen to use a word in Greek that indicated such but they didn't.
I did mention earlier that the Apostle Paul indicated that the 7th day of creation, called the sabbath, was still in progress in his day. He encouraged christians to 'enter into Gods rest'
Now if he didnt believe that the 7th day was still in progress, why would he say that it was still occuring and christians had an opportunity to enter into it???
Read Hebrews 3 very carefully and you'll see that Paul was telling christians not to become like the faithless isrealites, but rather keep faith in God and enter into his sacred rest day.
Hebrews 3:14 writes:
For we actually become partakers of the Christ only if we make fast our hold on the confidence we had at the beginning firm to the end, 15while it is being said: Today if YOU people listen to his own voice, do not harden YOUR hearts as on the occasion of causing bitter anger.
16For who were they that heard and yet provoked to bitter anger? Did not, in fact, all do so who went out of Egypt under Moses? 17Moreover, with whom did [God] become disgusted for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? 18But to whom did he swear that they should not enter into his rest except to those who acted disobediently? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of lack of faith.
4 Therefore, since a promise is left of entering into his rest, let us fear that sometime someone of YOU may seem to have fallen short of it. ...
6Since, therefore, it remains for some to enter into it, and those to whom the good news was first declared did not enter in because of disobedience, 7he again marks off a certain day by saying after so long a time in David’s [psalm] Today; just as it has been said above: Today if YOU people listen to his own voice, do not harden YOUR hearts. 8For if Joshua had led them into a place of rest, [God] would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9So there remains a sabbath resting for the people of God.
10For the man that has entered into [God’s] rest has also himself rested from his own works, just as God did from his own.

This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 53 of 127 (548657)
02-28-2010 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ICANT
02-28-2010 9:41 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
ICANT writes:
Peg would you please explain to me why your definition of day is better than the one God gave in Genesis 1:5?
its not MY definition
Strongs hebrew dictionary defines it as 'age'
Original Word: יוֹם
Transliteration: yom
Phonetic Spelling: (yome)
Short Definition: age
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
day
NASB Word Usage
afternoon* (1), age (8), age* (1), all (1), always* (14), amount* (2), battle (1), birthday* (1), Chronicles* (38), completely* (1), continually* (14), course* (1), daily (22), daily the days (1), day (1115), day of the days (1), day that the period (1), day's (6), day's every day (1), daylight* (1), days (635), days on the day (1), days to day (1), days you shall daily (1), days ago (1), days' (11), each (1), each day (4), entire (2), eternity (1), evening* (1), ever in your life* (1), every day (2), fate (1), first (5), forever* (11), forevermore* (1), full (5), full year (1), future* (1), holiday* (3), later* (2), length (1), life (12), life* (1), lifetime (2), lifetime* (1), live (1), long (2), long as i live (1), long* (11), midday* (1), now (5), older* (1), once (2), period (3), perpetually* (2), present (1), recently (1), reigns (1), ripe* (1), short-lived* (1), so long* (1), some time (1), survived* (2), time (45), time* (1), times* (2), today (172), today* (1), usual (1), very old* (1), when (10), when the days (1), whenever (1), while (3), whole (2), year (10), yearly (5), years (13), yesterday* (1).
NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries
Please understand that the hebrew language has its own definitions for Yom. As you can see above, it can mean any length of time in hebrew. We cannot honestly say that Moses meant 24hours when he used the word Yom to describe the creation of the earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ICANT, posted 02-28-2010 9:41 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ICANT, posted 02-28-2010 10:39 PM Peg has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 54 of 127 (548666)
02-28-2010 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Peg
02-28-2010 10:04 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
Hi Peg,
Peg writes:
We cannot honestly say that Moses meant 24hours when he used the word Yom to describe the creation of the earth.
Moses did not have to mean anything he just wrote what God told him to write.
A 24 hour day is a concept of man that he came up with to say how long the light portion and darkness portion of a day was.
God plainly said a light period and a darkness period was a day.
Do you agree or disagree with what God told Moses to write?
Why should I accept what some man said over what God said?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Peg, posted 02-28-2010 10:04 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Peg, posted 03-01-2010 12:27 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 59 by greyseal, posted 03-02-2010 4:36 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 55 of 127 (548683)
03-01-2010 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by ICANT
02-28-2010 10:39 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
ICANT writes:
God plainly said a light period and a darkness period was a day.
Do you agree or disagree with what God told Moses to write?
Why should I accept what some man said over what God said?
Yes, he did say that the 'light' was the 'day'
But some people think that this also means that the 'day' was 24hours....why should I believe that???
What do you think? Is 'day' only the 12 hours of light, or is 'day' the full 24 hours? And why is the same hebrew word used in so many different ways?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ICANT, posted 02-28-2010 10:39 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 127 (548700)
03-01-2010 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Peg
02-28-2010 6:25 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
no, the hebrew word YOM stands for any length of time. Thats all.
In english, a day can also be a longer period of time more then 24 hours.
If an old person tells you a story that begins with "back in my day" , you understand that he is not speaking about a specific 24 hour day but rather the years of his life when he was a younger person.
I dont understand why no one gets this point about Yom. ????
I know what you are saying, and to a degree you are right. Occasionally, Yom is an unspecified amount of time, but more generally it is meant as a literal day, i.e. Yom Kippur.
That the author of Genesis goes out of his way to use wording like, It was day, it was night, the first day. It was day, it was night, the 2nd day, etc, etc, only lends credence to the position that he was illustrating literal days here.
From a literary standpoint, I think that is what the message is trying to convey. From scientific standpoint, I highly doubt it!

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Peg, posted 02-28-2010 6:25 PM Peg has not replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3861 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 57 of 127 (548863)
03-02-2010 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by ICANT
02-26-2010 9:37 AM


Re: Re:Literal
Help me to understand how:
The earth
was without form and void
If it did not exist.
Yesterday with my kids, I built a house out of lego. After I built the house my kids pulled it apart and built a racecar.
Where's the house?
when you understand this, you'll understand what I meant earlier.
cheers,
Greyseal.
Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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greyseal
Member (Idle past 3861 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 58 of 127 (548864)
03-02-2010 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by kbertsche
02-26-2010 9:41 AM


Re: Re:Literal
"Without form and void" can also be translated "empty and desolate"
This is different from non-existence.
without form and void is a bit more powerful a phrase than "empty and desolate". I think if they'd meant merely "empty and desolate" they should have said so...
...but now you have a problem. You want to believe in a literal bible when the original manuscripts are non existent, the authors unknown and even the translation is open to interpretation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by kbertsche, posted 02-26-2010 9:41 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by kbertsche, posted 03-02-2010 3:26 PM greyseal has replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3861 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


(1)
Message 59 of 127 (548865)
03-02-2010 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by ICANT
02-28-2010 10:39 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
Hi Peg and ICANT,
Peg writes:
We cannot honestly say that Moses meant 24hours when he used the word Yom to describe the creation of the earth.
Moses did not have to mean anything he just wrote what God told him to write.
A 24 hour day is a concept of man that he came up with to say how long the light portion and darkness portion of a day was.
God plainly said a light period and a darkness period was a day.
Do you agree or disagree with what God told Moses to write?
Why should I accept what some man said over what God said?
You know what I find funny?
* God said it
* Moses wrote it down
* Moses "says" God said "this"
* Peg (a human) says "God meant that"
* ICANT (a human) says "God meant the other" AND
* ICANT (a human) says he "doesn't want to take what a {human} said over the word of God"
There's only the words of humans in here! Since none of you have God's cellphone number, all any of you have is a man's words.
ICANT, you're a human, why should Peg take what you said over what God said? What do you have to show that your interpretation of God's words (as written by Moses) is any more correct than Peg's interpretation of God's words?
And Peg, what makes you think YOUR interpretation is correct over ICANT's?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ICANT, posted 02-28-2010 10:39 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Flyer75, posted 03-02-2010 9:28 AM greyseal has replied
 Message 64 by Peg, posted 03-03-2010 12:52 AM greyseal has replied

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 60 of 127 (548885)
03-02-2010 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by greyseal
03-02-2010 4:36 AM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
greyseal writes:
There's only the words of humans in here! Since none of you have God's cellphone number, all any of you have is a man's words
Christians don't believe this though greyseal. We believe that the Bible was written by men, inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what God wanted them to write.
2 Peter 1:21 says:
For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men (Moses in this case) spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
You are correct that no original manuscripts have been found. Probably never will be. Would it change your mind if they were found? Probably not. But, the Jewish transcribers were meticulous in their translations. I'm not going to go into all the detail here.
Also, you do know that many of our ancient classic books that have been found have never had an original found with them either yet college professors consider them completely historically accurate. In fact, the Bible has the MOST manuscripts that have been found backing it up. More then anything from Homer for example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by greyseal, posted 03-02-2010 4:36 AM greyseal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Theodoric, posted 03-02-2010 12:00 PM Flyer75 has not replied
 Message 65 by greyseal, posted 03-03-2010 3:32 PM Flyer75 has not replied
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