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Author Topic:   WooHoo! More idiots running the gub'ment.
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 106 of 245 (548917)
03-02-2010 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 1:07 PM


Re: Establishment Of Athiesm
establishment of athiestic values.

As an Atheist, I'd love to hear what these "atheistic values" are.

Can you name them? Perhaps even one?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 1:07 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by AZPaul3, posted 03-02-2010 1:45 PM Rahvin has not yet responded
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 6:02 PM Rahvin has responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 609 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 107 of 245 (548918)
03-02-2010 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 1:07 PM


Re: Establishment Of Athiesm
Buzsaw writes:

...athiestic values...


Like Rahvin, I'd be thrilled to know what my own values are from your mouth. Enlighten us, and save us from the horrors that are to come!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 1:07 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1415 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 108 of 245 (548919)
03-02-2010 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 8:56 AM


Re: A secular system...
You're still not getting it, DC. Christians and creationists don't have the same rights as the secular humanists. Their ideology is exclusively taught in the classrooms.

Science is taught in the classroom (or at least it should be ). It has nothing to do with ideology. Creationism is not substantiated by emperical evidence nor peer-reviewed. If creationism had any ounce of emperical evidence then it would be presented in the classroom. The classroom is NOT the forum for vetting unsubstantiated pseudoscientific ideas otherwise we should be teaching our kids astrology and how to use healing crystals.

Again (again and again) in our republic the elected reps make the determination.

And these elected representatives have chosen to keep real science like biological and cosmic evolution in the schools. Case in point, Dover. You can't have it both ways.

But the gub'ment's position in schools is not neutral. It is exclusively secular humanist as per the determinations of the republic majority of elected reps. The American republic is working nicely for you secular humanist sheeple and you're still whining, as per this thread, when a bone is thrown to someone elses ideology some place in the nation.

Pot calling the kettle, much Buzz? I see more pity parties and martyr attitudes from fundamentalists than from any other group out there.


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
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Species8472
Junior Member (Idle past 3195 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 01-13-2010


Message 109 of 245 (548920)
03-02-2010 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 1:07 PM


Re: Establishment Of Athiesm
Buzsaw writes:
quote:
Stalin espoused Marxism and Lenninism, both of which sought to abolish religion.

I'd have to agree with the other posters here. Having both grown up catholic and in a communist country, I have always noticed the resemblance between the two theologies. What I know about the actual communist states that came into existence have little to resemble what Carl Marx had in mind.

Just because Stalin claimed to be a follower of Marxism doesn't mean he actually followed it. I am reminded of the KKK in this case. They all claim to be Christians, yet their actions and words are anything but Christ-like. Hitler is another example. He claimed to be a Christian. In Mein Campf, he repeatedly said that he was going to do God's work on Earth. He even claimed that he was commanded by God to do what he was going to do. And I don't think it's fair to say what the Nazis did was Christian ideology, wouldn't you say?


This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4731
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 110 of 245 (548922)
03-02-2010 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Rahvin
03-02-2010 1:24 PM


Re: Establishment Of Athiesm
As I understand it these are six values from the creed of the Mother Cult of Atheism.

Atheists value the freedom to steal, rape, murder, lie and run amuck without guilt.
Atheists value the freedom to rape, murder, lie, run amuck and steal without guilt.
Atheists value the freedom to murder, lie, run amuck, steal and rape without guilt.
Atheists value the freedom to lie, run amuck, steal, rape and murder without guilt.
Atheists value the freedom to run amuck, steal, rape, murder and lie without guilt.
Atheists value the freedom to sleep in on Sunday morning without guilt.

And we haven't even yet mentioned drugs, sodomy or Rock-n-Roll.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : Added thought


This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6800
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 111 of 245 (548930)
03-02-2010 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Hyroglyphx
03-02-2010 10:34 AM


Re: WTF?
BTW, I sure hope you were trying to include Hitler in you list.

Absolutely Hitler is included.

Typo on my part. I meant I sure hope you were not including Hitler. He was not an atheist and it has been shown conclusively on this forum and elsewhere that he had strong religious motivations.

You assume that must have been what I meant when all I stated was that anti-religious factions have persecuted religion in the same manner that religion has persecuted anyone outside of its sphere of influence.

The problem is your equating anti-religious with atheism. they are not equivocal. They has been a lot of anti-religious actions that have been religiously motivated. For example, as has been shown numerous times here that Stalin, Mao and Kim Il Sung were setting up state religions. This does not make the atheists. Just because a religion is not christian or moslem or hindu or any of the well known religions does not make it atheism.

Atheism has no belief set. Setting yourself up to be worshiped is not the sign of an atheist.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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DC85
Member (Idle past 78 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 112 of 245 (548933)
03-02-2010 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 1:12 AM


Re: What Use To Be
Re: What Use To Be
One thing this thread has demonstrated is how America has changed in the last 60 years. There was a day when the Buz statements here would be understood and accepted by the majority

This forum does not represent the majority. Most of us are in. the Minority. AGAIN the majority does not matter in such topics.

. I pray for you all.
and I'll cast a magical spell on you.

due to global apostacy in general. The end times are upon the planet
You wingnuts have said this for centuries every time bad things happen i n series. The funny part of this is it's normally your religion that causes the problems.

Call me a liar now
I call you insane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 1:12 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2824 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 113 of 245 (548934)
03-02-2010 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 8:36 AM


Re: What Use To Be
Buzsaw writes:

LOL, Coyote. The school kiddies, in America's past, were exposed to a whole lot more Bible for a long time than what they are today, embracing Biblical beliefs. Those were the days of America's incline. These are the days of America's decline.

You're making up made up things.

I'm late jumping on this one, but by what standard do you judge that America is in some state of decline? Life expectencancy? Percentage of the population living in poverty? Crime? Access to technology? Literacy? Or is this just some made up shit that Christian fundies like to make up?

And if atheism leads to lawless, sinful behavior, then I suppose that means that the National Academy of Sciences must be a frantic monkeyhouse of depravity, crime and wickedness, since 93% of its members are non-believers. Where are the pictures of the orgies and baby sacrifices at their annual meetings?

It appears from many of your posts, Buz, that you buy into the fundie belief that somehow or other a society that isn't explicity dominated by Christians somehow equates to a society in which Christians are being persecuted. Thanks. This makes me laugh. Please try to understand the notion that equal rights for all doesn't mean that your rights are being infringed.

Edited by ZenMonkey, : Added rhetorical flourish.


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon

This message is a reply to:
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DC85
Member (Idle past 78 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 114 of 245 (548935)
03-02-2010 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 8:56 AM


Re: A secular system...
ou're still not getting it, DC. Christians and creationists don't have the same rights as the secular humanists. Their ideology is exclusively taught in the classrooms.
When you present scientific evidence for your position maybe you'll be taken seriously. Until then Proven sciences will be taught. These are not beliefs they are scientific theories that have facts and laws to back them up.

gain (again and again) in our republic the elected reps make the determination.
AGAIN, AGAIN, and AGAIN no they don't. I'm going to take a page out of your playbook and say YOU'RE ANTI-AMERICAN!

But the gub'ment's position in schools is not neutral. It is exclusively secular humanist
You mean sciences please correct yourself.

as per the determinations of the republic majority of elected reps.
NO they don't as we keep having to knock you wingnuts down with the courts.

The American republic is working nicely for you secular humanist sheeple and you're still whining , when a bone is thrown to someone elses ideology some place in the nation. ,
Because you idiots are trying to derail the basics of American rights.

Yours are beliefs get that through your head. There is a difference. No one teaches there is not a god in schools as that would be a violation. It's not our fault your beliefs don't stand up to the scientific method


This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 115 of 245 (548946)
03-02-2010 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 8:56 AM


Re: A secular system...
quote:
DA85 writes:

Why? Why is it hard for you as a Christian to have the same rights as everyone else?


You're still not getting it, DC. Christians and creationists don't have the same rights as the secular humanists. Their ideology is exclusively taught in the classrooms.

This is completely and 100% false. As is often the case with you and this topic, Buz.

"Secular humanism" is not taught at all in public schools.

"Atheism" is not taught at all in schools.

What is taught is science. Current scientific theories date the Earth at a few billion years old, and explain the diversity of life we observe today through the Theory of Evolution. This is not secular humanism. It is methodological naturalism...in other words, science. It is not a religion; it is a means of investigating the world around us in verifiable, testable ways through the use of our physical senses, with am emphasis on discarding anything shown by evidence to be inaccurate in favor of ever more accurate models.

Creationists and Christians are not restricted in tehir rights. At all. Children of any religion are welcome to pray in schools - they simply will not be led in prayer by the faculty on the public dime, because we all (including you, Buz) need to respect the rights of the parents and children who do not have the same religious views; the state cannot be used to endorese, even with the basic suggestion that there is or is not a deity, any religious belief so that all faiths are protected from the tyranny of the state.

At no point is Christianity challenged in public schools. Nobody tells kids that Jesus didn;t exist, or that mankind wasn;t made by God. Likewise, teachers are not permitted to say that those things are the case, to respect the rights of the Muslims and Hindus and Jews and atheists and Native Americans and Buddhists and everyone else.

The one place where some religious dogma comes into conflict is in science class. Religion is not science. There is no scientific controversy on these subjects. At all. And while religion is not taught because it would be inappropriate and illegal, nonreligion is not supported either. Again, at no point does the teacher say "...and all of this happened without God."

Children are simply taught what current scientific theories state. The only alternative is to compeltely scrap science class (as including state-sponsored religious education is bared by the very same Constitutional amendment that ensures that the kinds are allowed to individually pray). This, of course, would be a gross disservice to the kids and to the nation's future, and so it's not really an option at all.

Note that not all religions have a problem with modern scientific models dealing with human origins and the age of the Earth. MNost Christians don't even have a problem with it,noting as a specific example that the Catholic Church endorses the Theory of Evolution as being scientifically accurate and having no conflict with Genesis. A very small minority believes that the scinetific models for the age of teh Earth and diversity of life are inaccurate...and their beliefs on the matter are not scientific in nature, but rather are based solely on faith and religion.

Buz, school ignores religion. The appropriate response to any religious question in a public school is "go home and ask your parents, or ask your religious leader. Religion is a topic best left to you and your families, not to schools, because not all of us are going to beleive the same things." This treats all religions, as well as atheism and agnosticism, failtly and equitably. The way religion is treated in schools today protects the freedom of religion and the ability of parents and their children tobelieve or notbelieve according to the dictates of their own conscience without interference from teh state.

Only a twisted mind can pretend otherwise if you even take a cursory glance at the facts.

Buz, next time you claim that the rights of CHristians and fundamentalists are being violated by the curriculum of public schools, I demand that you post in detail the violation, including what aspect of the curriculum is in legal error, what legal basis you are using to make such an assessment, and what course of action would legally remedy the situation.

If you cannot do those things, then you are making a statement you know you cannot support, and are in effect lying.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 8:56 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 245 (548949)
03-02-2010 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Rahvin
03-02-2010 1:24 PM


Re: Establishment Of Athiesm
Rahvin writes:

As an Atheist, I'd love to hear what these "atheistic values" are.

Can you name them? Perhaps even one?

You, the athiest are asking me? You are the one who ascribes to their alleged values. That is, athiesm must have values which entice you. I would suppose one of them would be that athiesm makes you think that you' re not answerable to a higher power and no matter what you do, good or bad, will have no eternal consequenses.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 119 by Rahvin, posted 03-02-2010 6:17 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 120 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-02-2010 7:06 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 609 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 117 of 245 (548951)
03-02-2010 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 6:02 PM


Re: Establishment Of Athiesm
The reason we're asking you, Buz, is because we know that atheism lacks any values whatsoever. Since you seem to think that it does have values, we'd like to know what they are ,so we can correct you. Again...

Buzsaw writes:

I would suppose one of them would be that athiesm makes you think that you' re not answerable to a higher power and no matter what you do, good or bad, will have no eternal consequenses.


That's right. I however, do feel responsible to my fellow humans. You know, the ones that actually have to live with the consequences of my decisions? Something god certainly doesn't have to.

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6800
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 118 of 245 (548952)
03-02-2010 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 6:02 PM


Re: Establishment Of Athiesm
You, the athiest are asking me? You are the one who ascribes to their alleged values. That is, athiesm must have values which entice you.

Buz you are the one claiming there are some core Atheist values. The atheists are saying there are not. You are making the claim. Back it up or shut up.

I would suppose one of them would be that athiesm makes you think that you' re not answerable to a higher power and no matter what you do, good or bad, will have no eternal consequenses.

Do you even know what values are?

How is this for a good working definition.

the ideals, customs, institutions, etc., of a society toward which the people of the group have an affective regard. These values may be positive, as cleanliness, freedom, or education, or negative, as cruelty, crime, or blasphemy.

How is what you stated a value?

I didn't realize us atheists had customs and institutions. Could you fill me on what those are?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 6:02 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 119 of 245 (548953)
03-02-2010 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 6:02 PM


Re: Establishment Of Athiesm
You, the athiest are asking me?

Well, you were the one who claimes atheism had any values. It was reasonable to conclude that you knew what values you thought atheism carries.

You are the one who ascribes to their alleged values. That is, athiesm must have values which entice you.

I presume that you don't believe in Santa Claus. Does "Aclausism" have values that entice you?

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in deities. Nothing mroe or less. There is no philosophy or set of life guidelines, no traditions or dogma.

It jsut means I'm not convinced that deities exist. There are no values, benefits, or anythign else. I don't "cling" to atheism to shirk some sort of "responsibility" to a deity - how could I, if I don't think that the deity even exists?

I would suppose one of them would be that athiesm makes you think that you' re not answerable to a higher power and no matter what you do, good or bad, will have no eternal consequenses.

I'm answerable to plenty of "powers," however you want to interpret that. I have plenty of restrictions on my behavior - you'll note that I'm not, in fact, a raving homicidal maniac.

In fact, the only difference between me and any Christian you are likely to name is that I don't go to church on Sundays. I don't steal, I don't kill, I try not to lie, I don't cheat on my partners, and I don't kick kittens for fun.

I'm a member of society, you see. Society has placed restrictions on my behavior (some enforced, some optional) that carry consequences that range from losing social acceptance and being ostracized to actual imprisonment or even execution.

And from my perspective, execution is a rather eternal consequence.

Atheism is not hedonism, after all Buz. Atheism is separate from any and all ethical philosophies.


This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 120 of 245 (548959)
03-02-2010 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 6:02 PM


Re: Establishment Of Athiesm
You, the athiest are asking me?

We merely know what real atheists think --- but only you know what the imaginary atheists in your head think.

That is, athiesm must have values which entice you.

No, it's merely true. Does the proposition that 2 + 2 = 4 "have values that entice me"? Apart from being true, no.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 6:02 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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