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Author Topic:   Are mutations truly random or are they guided?
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4828 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 19 of 134 (548690)
03-01-2010 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by ZenMonkey
03-01-2010 12:31 AM


Re: Admitedly off-topic.
Already tried that experiment.
Have long since moved on to Helium, Viagra and microwave ovens myself.
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-01-2010 12:31 AM ZenMonkey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-01-2010 1:46 AM Meldinoor has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4828 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 21 of 134 (548693)
03-01-2010 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by herebedragons
02-28-2010 10:43 PM


herebedragons writes:
I do realize that there are mutations that are random, being caused by errors in replication. I noted the error rate that seems to be accepted - 1 error in 1 billion nucleotide replications. As you noted, most are not particularly useful. Then add into it that the mutation must happen in the germ cells and then be the lucky germ to be fertilized (or involved in fertilization) and the odds are beyond my liking.
And yet, statistically you should possess more than a hundred mutations (most which have little to no effect) that your parents didn't have. Add to that every other member of your generation and their mutations which also become part of the gene pool. I fail to see why the "odds" are not to your liking.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by herebedragons, posted 02-28-2010 10:43 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4828 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 93 of 134 (548980)
03-03-2010 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Bolder-dash
03-02-2010 9:26 PM


Re: unreal expectations based on false information
Bolder-dash writes:
I assumed you could tell, because you are the one that has the theory that they exist-the basis for all of life in fact. I was so naive to think that since they are the foundation of your theory, you knew what they looked like. Touche, Docteur A! Morsure extraordinaire!
Just because we know that many small mutations can lead to large scale changes, doesn't mean we can point to a single one that is responsible for the creation of a new organ. Because that's what you want, isn't it? You want us to identify ONE mutation responsible for producing, say, a new liver or a spleen where there was none earlier. You are assuming that there is ONE starting point, when in reality, many many mutations have been involved in bringing about the structures in modern humans.
In an earlier thread RAZD and I were explaining to you how the evolution of wings or gliding membranes would have occured. You completely refrained from rebutting my post and instead engaged in a pathetic ad hominem. But that's not the point.
The point is, the evolution of wings is a good example of how new structures evolve*, because of its initial simplicity. I'm no biologist, but webbed feet and hands occur commonly enough among humans that I suspect growing some webbing is as simple as a single mutation. To a human this is hardly beneficial, but to a tree dwelling animal like a squirrel, a bit of additional webbing may boost its chances of successfully leaping to a distant tree and escaping predators. If squirrels that can leap long distances are selected for, then additional mutations may be selected for, further improving the shape and span of the web (as well as any other adaptations that make gliding easier). By the time the squirrels are gliding through the trees, it may be impossible to say exactly which mutated allelle was the starting point. It may in fact have mutated again, in which case the "starting point" is lost.
It's like going to an old temple and asking, "which stone was laid first?" We know that the temple was built by people placing stones one at a time, and the fact that we can't point to the "starting point" does not alter this fact.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor
*More accurately, how old structures are modified
ABE:
A bit of advice. I notice how you have a persistent tendency to engage in ridicule, rather than actually discussing the points raised in the posts you respond to. I do my utmost to remain civil in my posts, and I suggest you do the same if you want people here to respect your opinion. Your posts are also a lot clearer if not phrased in a sarcastic manner. Remember, in a debate, losing one's cool is a sign of weakness
Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Bolder-dash, posted 03-02-2010 9:26 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4828 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 95 of 134 (548994)
03-03-2010 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Dr Adequate
03-03-2010 1:56 AM


Re: unreal expectations based on false information
Dr Adequate writes:
You might as well think that since I believe that some babies grow up to be brain surgeons, I should know what such a baby looks like. Well, in a sense, I do --- small, baldish, wrinkled, goes waaah! a lot. Just like all the others.
Hmm... that's odd. That's the exact analogy I thought of using before I settled for the temple analogy instead. Almost the exact wording I had intended too. A bit scary how that works out sometimes.
-Meldinoor
Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-03-2010 1:56 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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