Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity

He's not a passive God. If God knew that Israel would backslide, and your complaint is that there is no point in Him punishing them for it because he already knew it, that's essentially asking God to just sit back, relax, and watch the show on earth and be passive because He already knows whats going to happen anyway. (Take a chill pill?) Which doesn't make sense to me. Since I perceive God as being actively involved in His creation. I think God restrains His children from sinning sometimes. I think He allows sinners to sin. You see, He's right now "doing" stuff. (Stuff which He already knew He would do) But again, does omniscience obviate expression?involvement? This is interesting. Are you implying that God need not express anger? Frustration? just because He knows forthcoming events. I don't think omniscience obviates expression. The God of the Bible is an emotional God. To me, God's greatest business has to do with His creation, specifically mankind because man is the only creature with a soul. And God regard the soul as more important than physical body. I find this "passive God" idea of yours rather funny. Ahh, let me guess. If God already knows what you're going to ask Him for, and knows whether or not He will give it you, why do you need to pray? Is that it?(I say that because I get asked that question a lot) I'm under the impression, the quoted person thinks omniscience and freewill cannot exist together. Which I think results from a misunderstanding of either or both concepts. One Word. Salvation.Ultimately, I believe that God directs every occurrence to manifest Himself. And that manifestation can make Him look good, or bad, or powerful, or angry, or merciful, or anything else. I believe "its all about Him". The main reason I believe He creates this huge plan is to bring unsaved, spiritually dead people to Himself. (the doctrine of Redemption).To make them more like Himself and restore what Adam lost for them (the doctrine of Sanctification) And the second reason, I believe is to show unbelievers who He can be because of their unbelief. (Judgment) And I think the second reason is justifiable because General Revelation provides entire mankind with evidence for an all powerful, creative God.---I see it coming.... I imagine a post that says something to the effect of "are you kidding me!?, how can murders, rapes, earthquakes, killing, strife, hatred, etc possibly demonstrate God's goodness???, These things sound more like what a evil monarch rather an a all-loving God would do"All I want to say in response is, 1. The devil is still active today. 2. Sin keeps ever increasing (and therefore God's wrath) because of that 3. I know you atheist guys are going to want to completely bash me and trash me, and kick me out of this place for this, but I'm going to say it, "what bad we see is much less than what good God gives us" If God really was to show His wrath, I can't even imagine what that would look like. I don't want to. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Fixed quote box

Good night, Zenmonkey. Have a great day tomorrow. Silence is as deep as eternity; speech, shallow as time. ~Thomas CarlyleEdited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

Disclaimer: This post contains a LOT of my personal opinion. Very little is argued or discussed. Just so you know what to expect. (and Admins, I apologize if this isn't allowed, but please note also that Apothecus has asked for my opinion at some points) Hi, Apothecus. I'm enjoying this conversation with you. I know I can't do justice to it because of my limitations, but I'll try to give you a personal, honest opinion on the questions asked. Alright. I am thinking about this, I promise."Including God's reaction..." Uhhmmm, I have a problem with that actually. And my problem is that you somehow ignored/did not grasp the other half of my paragraph. Let me re-quote the whole paragraph one more time and I request you to please bear with me: I get the impression that you perceive the God of the Bible as being a skilled story-writer. And that's okay with me to a certain degree. But when you focus on the latter part of the paragraph (which I bolded for you), my point there is that God is actually organizing, orchestrating, guiding, directing, coordinating, and conducting events. I know I said God is "doing stuff right now" and that's pathetically vague, but I hope I made myself clear now? God's foreknowledge does not eliminate His direct, active involvement in the actual occurrences of this world, no? And so when you stop with the story writer idea, you get these kind of questions...well, the screenplay's all set, why bother now? Just sit back, relax, and watch......right? Well, with no director to visualize the screenplay, no producer to create scenes and settings, and no cinematographer to arrange the set and lighting, what good is the screenplay? No good.
I say it gain, God is actively working right now. Just because He knows that people ar going to do in their lives, He isn't hindered to intervene and manipulate things. Consider this verse: Psalm 33:13-15 The Lord looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works.Also, God's feelings aren't predestined, I don't think. When making a movie, you aren't limited to shutting up and watching. You actually manipulate, direct, improve, and organize things for the better, right? God does change things, people, plans...but still He's omniscient in that He knows the final outcome of every twist and turn. In other words, why make the screenplay at all when it doesn't sound like a merry one with a happily-ever-after fairytale style ending?Well, I'm not going to be all sugary and fake and say that our world is actually a good place to live in. Someone once said that the earth is probably another planet's hell. When I first read that, I was like, you know, that's it!! that's the king of descriptions of all descriptions of this damn earth, you can't get more accurate than that..............until a few seconds after that, I realized how pathetically foolish I was. When you think of it, Apothecus, what the world has become is what WE have made it. We are the kings of this planet. We take everything from animals, to natural resources, to sunlight...everything under our control and use it to make our lives better. We abuse animals in unimaginably horrible ways, we destroy nature with our ignorance, we kill each other, we hate each other, we invent technologies, we make a name for ourselves, we have kids, we play, we cry, we love, we sing, we dance and then we die. That's all. All that we achieve, unfortunately, will not go to the grave with us. I find this so ironical! That we humans make our lives better at the cost of others' pain and nature's destruction and finally just die, is beyond me. Fine, we invent amazing technologies. We increase life-spans. We conquer epidemics. We invent too-good-to-be-true stuff like the internet. We do a lot. Does one thing, one thing, conquer death, pain, suffering, loss, crime, cruelty? Death, that's what brought things into perspective for me. Is death what I live for? No. There has got to be something more greater than I, that I should be living for. I was reminded of one thing. My salvation. God. The beauty of the screenplay is that God takes something that we have so deucedly messed up and turns it into a beautiful love-story. Of course, for you to believe that God is not at fault for this sad screenplay (and that we are) requires that you also believe He did not create sin. And to believe he did not create sin, you need to have faith in His character and words. Without faith, yes, He does look like a tyrant. With faith, He looks like the unselfish soldier who lays down his life for the sake of his friends'. Hmm, I beg to differ with that, please. Plus, I don't see how you can give prophecies without omniscience.Psalm 139: 1-61 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.5 You hem me inbehind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.I ripped a small chunk from Acts 27 for space's sake, but reading the entire chapter makes more sense, I think.Acts 27:21After the men had gone a long time without food, Paul stood up before them and said: "Men, you should have taken my advice not to sail from Crete; then you would have spared yourselves this damage and loss. 22But now I urge you to keep up your courage, because not one of you will be lost; only the ship will be destroyed. 23Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me 24and said, 'Do not be afraid, Paul. You must stand trial before Caesar; and God has graciously given you the lives of all who sail with you.' 25So keep up your courage, men, for I have faith in God that it will happen just as he told me. 26Nevertheless, we must run aground on some island."These are just two passages form the Bible that give sure proof for God's knowledge of future events. There are many more that deal with His knowledge of past and present events. But since you specifically called into question His ability to discern future events, I present to you these two Scripture passages for your perusal. And here we come, to THE question. BTW, was that really what was in your mind?Simple answer: I pray to foster a relationship with Him. The purpose of my prayer is not to beg Him for material benefits. I think the benefits (material or immaterial) will follow regardless of my asking Him or not asking Him. I know God will keep blessing me regardless of whether or not I ask Him as long as I maintain a healthy relationship with Him. This is not to imply that I do not ask Him for earthly things. Like right now I need a car (badly!). And I'm asking Him for one. And I can't predict whats going to happen. But as a general rule, I know that when I please Him, earthly blessings follow. However, my desire to please Him should not (and I hope does not) stem from a desire for material benefits.Remember the Lord's prayer?Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,the power and the glory,for ever and ever.AmenPlease know that bread here means the Word of God. How do I know? Answer: Matthew 4:4 (New International Version)4Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God."I am aware that most often Christians fail to follow this pattern of prayer. Instead we on and on about, "give me a job, give me a wife, give me new shoes, give me a slim body, give me intelligence, give me this, that, everything..." I am not saying that asking God for material benefits is inherently wrong, not at all (Jesus said, ask and it shall be given unto you), I'm saying that often we Christians pretend like that's what we're living for. When in reality, we really need to be living for the source of those gifts. And believe that those gifts will automatically follow. And even if they don't--- just keep going. I fail miserably at this. But I also know that with God's help, I'm overcoming my selfishness. And one day, I'll get there. There truly is war between spirit and flesh. So to answer your question very succinctly, "I pray in order to cultivate a relationship with God (much like friends talk to each other). My prayer is allowed to include petition for material benefit, however it isn't allowed be centered around material benefit. And the prime reason God's grants these petitions is to show, to respond, to reciprocate my faith in Him. Ultimately, the center of prayer is (or should be) God."Please understand that I'm not displaying a "holier than thou" type attitude. (and neither do I want to trash Christians, I just am sharing a very honest personal opinion about us) I admit freely that I'm a huge failure at praying the right way. Huge. But I'm learning, and one day, learning-mode will end. I think that day will be when I'm with Christ in Heaven. Good. I didn't doubt the capability of the Admins to handle a riot, I just thought that I'd get a boatload full of such replies and not know what to do next. Basically, you're asking me why I adhere to Calvinism, correct?I'm going to give you a very broad and simple answer. There's more to this, but time, and space limit me.Calvinism is attractive to me personally simply because it makes God look unimaginably sovereign. An implication of that is that men look small compared to Him. But when I first read Calvin's works, especially on predestination and limited atonement, I hated it with a passion. Really. But as I read Scripture, I began to see that God really is as sovereign as Calvin portrays Him (and even more). Then I turned to science. Science, specifically Astronomy, told me that the earth is some "pale blue dot" that you can hardly see. (ever heard of that?) Basically, everywhere I turned, I noticed that man's life is worthless, short, and almost meaningless. (bitter, but true, you can tell by the murders, rapes, killings, death, crime etc) And I came to the conclusion that if man's life has to be worth anything, it needs God to be in it. A sovereign God.Then I battled with the question of "well, how can predestination possibly be reconciled with an all-loving God"? Scripture gave me my answer. True God is all-loving. But He is also a just judge. While He saves some people from eternal damnation (as in predestines them), He assigns some people to hell. He cannot claim to be a just God and NOT send some people to hell. At the same time, He cannot claim to be love and NOT save some people. He's got to do both in equal proportion in order to maintain His integrity. He can' t lie.Have you noticed something? In my view, its all about Him. His character. His integrity. His love. His justice. Man is just a means to meet His desired end. And I don't think that should bother us. To me, all this made sense. I don't think it will to an unbeliever. It is VERY dangerous to read Calvin's works while being an unbeliever, specifically a skeptic who is searching for the truth. Honestly, that stuff is for people who already know who God is and believe in Him.
Coming back to the predestination problem...so, how does He pick which ones to send to hell, then? That's got to be subjective! Again, Scripture. General Revelation. He gives a chance to everyone. Some accept it, some reject. Predestination and freewill are admittedly two of the hardest things to reconcile. And I freely admit, I do not fully understand how God's mind works. Neither did Calvin. But Calvin surely understood much more than I do. And that's why I adhere to his teachings. If you read all of that, my heartfelt gratitude for your patience and kindness. I really have enjoyed this conversation a lot. Thank you so much for being very kind and considerate in your choice of words. I've admitted that I'm incapable of doing justice to your deep questions, and I apologize if my answers don't match up to your expectations. But I hope you will find the Truth one day and may it satisfy all your questions.G'night.edit:oh, one more... Right. I know, but I need a starting point. I don't want to lecture for 2 hours on the topic.(I doubt I can, haha). In my view, they both exist in harmony. Bluejay (or Hyrolgyphyx, I think it actually was, dunno) seemed to think that having omniscience eliminates the possibility of freewill. But I maintain that omniscience [God] just knows what freewill [man] is going to produce [decide or do about something], omniscience [God] does not interfere with or manipulate [man's] freewill's decision-making. Now, I believe that God can manipulate a person's freewill (not eradicate it, mind you), but that's more His omnipotence. Which is not the topic here.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : The bluejay thing...

Are you really asking me this? Its funny, because you have your answer and yet you ask me. Hmmm, I didn't intend to sound like I'm not open to discussion. So, if you ever care to discuss the points of disagreement in a different thread, I'd be happy to be there Why, thank you, Dr. Apothecus. Even if it occurs that I get bashed often, I like this forum. Its different from most others I;ve debated on. Its addictive. Good place, I like it. I've actually had skin-thickening experiences on here and I'm sure they never run out, so don't worry. What's IPU? Heard of FSM, but never IPU......oh, and never heard of CRAZY Calvinist dogma....heard of Calvinism, though Farewell. May we meet in another thread and discuss another topic sometime in the future.PS: I'm disappointed. I was expecting some feedback from you on my answer about prayer.

I English know not, Bluejay. Mercy me have on, please. I reply try to message yours.....okay? I never said that portions of the Bible can be disregarded. As years go by, prophecies get fulfilled and we no longer practice former customs and traditions. Hannah's homage is not a prophecy that is yet to fulfilled, unlike Mosaic Law, which was embodied, personified, and fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ.Obviously, God knew that we humans cannot ever follow every single law given through Moses. Therefore, God sends Jesus (who is perfect and holy) who agrees to buy back lost people from sin. Once bought by Jesus, I need no longer follow Mosaic Law. That's why I don't sacrifice rams, and doves anymore. Jesus' righteousness is my righteousness.But Hannah's homage......I really don't see why you compare it to the law and Christ's fulfillment of it. There is no comparison. One thing that could be causing ambiguity perhaps is the thought that the Bible is a product of human imagination. And so if you look at it that way, yes, it doesn't make sense to compare God's perfectness with anyone else's when the world is full of imperfect people. But when you believe that the Word was formed, so to speak, even before the writers were born, then yes, it makes sense for God to compare His perfectness with men's (because one man had human perfection, Adam) and tell us that His is unique to Him only. Are you suggesting that there is only one definition of perfect and both God and Adam were that? And are you deriving this conclusion from the Bible? If so, could you give me some references from the Bible to support your claim? Please don't tell me, that that stands to reason and that I'm dumb. I'd like some Bible verses. Edited by Dr. Sing, : refining..

I inferred as much from reading some of your posts. But your beliefs do intrigue me, if I may be allowed to say that... Please. Just show me only verse in the Bible that claims Adam to be equal to God the Father/Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit in substance. Thats all, one verse. That was just one Scripture passage to supprt my claim, actually. I also gave you Romans 5. And I'll now present another passage that supports my belief:I Cor 15: 35 But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heavenPaul's main thrust here is, resurrection from the spiritual death caused by Adam (to all mankind) made available by spiritual life through Christ alone. Basically, Paul is dealing with the Corinthian believers' belief that there is no resurrection. He goes to the root of why we even need to make a distinction between the natural and spiritual bodies. And He clearly claims that the "spiritual" (Christ) came after the "natural" (Adam): verse 46. Why the distinction if both are of the same substance, IOW, if both ,as you say were perfect in the same sense? Why the use of the word "natural" for Adam? And notice this amazing verse: 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. I take this verse to clearly be talking about the substances of Adam and God. Adam was created a living being-- that's it, nothing divine about him. (Please do not take this to imply that he was imperfect, no, he did posses certain qualities that rendered him a righteous man, sancticfying grace for example). And I think this next verse is the grand summation of the argument: 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. ---Meaning, the first man while possessing righteousness was still a "man" i.e dust. You see, it is possible to have a perfect man who is NOT God. If Adam was of the same substance as God, then sheesh, why did he not "resurrect" and pay for his own sins? Furthermore, Bluejay, how can God sin? If He does, is He God? Wait, wait ,wait, wait. I lost you. "Things before the atonement are not necessarily equivalent to things after the Atonement." Do you mean they are not as important? Are they outdated? Why? Not because the things before Atonement were somehow "less quality". Christ is the fulfillment of Mosaic Law. That doesn't render Mosaic law as outdated/not worthy to be followed anymore. You see, there's a reason why I don't apply Mosaic law to my life today: fulfillment of it by Christ on Dr.sing's behalf. Which gives me the right not to apply Mosaic Law to my life. Yes. Because Hannah wasn't sitting in her garden one day entertaining blissful, poetic thoughts, penning epic homages all of her own imagination. Samuel included those words on God's command, who is omniscient, who is not bound by time, who is not limited to writing stuff within limitations posed by the succession of events during history's course, and the limit you seem to be placing in His way is the Fall, a purely historical event--which He is not limited by time and history. You and I are. Instead, He is using the fall to make His point. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by Dr. Sing, : spelling

Hey Apothecus, Nice analogy. Except robots don't have freewill. Which implies you can predict their actions. Not so with human. Tell me, Apothecus, if God is sitting up there in Heaven waiting for a certain believer to pray for something because He cant wait to give it to Him, does such a situation not invoke feelings of anticipation? excitement? In both God and the believer. God is sitting there hoping that the believer will pray, speaking to him, bringing people, circumstances, etc etc to guide him, just so he can receive God's gift. Imagine. Is such a situation as "contrived" as you imagine it to be? And when the believer does pray and receive the gift, is his faith not strengthened? And does that not make both God and him content? Has the believer not grown spiritually? Is all of this just "contrived"? I don't think so. People surely can and often do change God's plans through their behavior, be it to a positive or a negative end.There is pleasure is God's fellowshipping with man. The pleasure of seeing His children interact with Him. The pleasure of His being able to honor their faith. The pleasure of bestowing benefits in their lives. The pleasure of forgivening them when they repent. The pleasure of cheering them on, giving them grace during their temptations. The ultimate pleasure of saying "well done, good and faithful servant" at the end. The pleasure of being one in spirit with His children.That's my take on it. Lets introduce a twist into the story, shall we? Lets put me in place of you. So, said incident happens to Dr. Sing. (Dr. Sing is a believer). Good so far?Lets also suppose I'm a poor person. (which I am actually. Heh) And I have absolutely no money to pay for all the work that needs to go into the repair. What if I prayed then? And what if God sent money through some anonymous person? My problem is solved. But that isn't my point. My point is, that God used that indicent to strengthen ny faith. To make me realize He cares for me, thinks about me. This is precisely that kind of pleasure that I think God created us for. To just experience each other. God and we. Ah. No, I,...wait. Here, look at this verse,
I Cor 15: 27For he "has put everything under his feet." now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself.So, is predestination above God, or is God above predestination? The Bible indicates that predestination was ordained by God, which obviates predestination of His feelings/actions unless its self-imposed. While God is omniscient, He doesn't predestine human feelings and actions. Freewill was given for a purpose, no? The one thing that the Bible seems to clearly indicate is the predestination of the eternal fate of people. I need to study more of the Bible and Calvin before I can justify non-predestination of human feelings and actions. Someday.... I just gave you the verse. And we have the ability to get ourselves out of it too, if only we give God the authority He deserves. Ahh, yes. Why did I forget that? Excuse my use of the word "proof". However, I believe that there is nothing wrong in proving the Bible from the Bible. Well, the real question is whether or not what happens in reality is reflective of whether or not I pray for a car. There's a spiritual lesson to be learnt in every situation, I believe. Who knows what lesson God is trying to teach me? I'll find out. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by Dr. Sing, : refiningEdited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

Such as? Nice. I'm glad you brought this up. I knew mentioning about my car need would open up the discussion to this line of thought.I perfectly understand your point. And I can see from a logical perspective how predestination "seemingly" interferes with the concept of an active, responsive God. However, a close inspection of the Word of God eliminates the amibguity. Let me give you an example of what I'm about to say even before I say it.Joshua 101Now it came about when Adoni-zedek king of Jerusalem heard that Joshua had captured Ai, and had utterly destroyed it (just (A)as he had done to Jericho and its king, so he had done to Ai and its king), and that the inhabitants of Gibeon had (B)made peace with Israel and were within their land,2that he (C)feared greatly, because Gibeon was a great city, like one of the royal cities, and because it was greater than Ai, and all its men were mighty.3Therefore Adoni-zedek king of Jerusalem sent word (D)to Hoham king of Hebron and to Piram king of Jarmuth and to Japhia king of Lachish and to Debir king of Eglon, saying,4"Come up to me and help me, and let us attack Gibeon, for it has (E)made peace with Joshua and with the sons of Israel."5So the five kings of (F)the Amorites, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon, gathered together and went up, they with all their armies, and camped by Gibeon and fought against it.6Then the men of Gibeon sent word to Joshua to the camp at Gilgal, saying, "Do not abandon your servants; come up to us quickly and save us and help us, for all the kings of the Amorites that live in the hill country have assembled against us."7So Joshua went up from Gilgal, he and (G)all the people of war with him and all the valiant warriors.8The LORD said to Joshua, "(H)Do not fear them, for I have given them into your hands; not one of them shall stand before you."9So Joshua came upon them suddenly by marching all night from Gilgal.10(I)And the LORD confounded them before Israel, and He slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and pursued them by the way of the ascent of Beth-horon and struck them as far as Azekah and Makkedah.11As they fled from before Israel, while they were at the descent of Beth-horon, (J)the LORD threw large stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died from the hailstones than those whom the sons of Israel killed with the sword.12Then Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel,
"O (K)sun, stand still at Gibeon,
And O moon in the valley of Aijalon."
13(L)So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped,
Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies
Is it not written in (M)the book of Jashar? And (N)the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.In God's eyes, there's two ways to driving a nail into a wall. One, just command the nail to drive itself in to the wall. Two, have a man with a hammer do the job for Him. Prayer is the second way. I think God could have stopped the sun anyway by just commanding it to stop. But Joshua prayed and God's answering his prayer therefore becomes a great example of what one man's faith and prayer can do. And how God, Himself works with a man to bring about good. (something that can't happen apart from prayer) It can save an entire nation. My point is not so much Israel's benefit from Joshua's faith even though that certainly is noteworthy, as is Joshua's own personal faith experience that strengthened his "walk with God", so to speak. His relationship with the one he trusted, if you will. There are copious many examples of how one person's prayer changed things dramatically for the good of not only that one believer's faith but also those around him. Moses? How many times did Moses plead God not to destroy the Israelites in His wrath for their apostasy? And how many times did God not accept his petition? Moses humbled himself to the point of being willing to "exchange" his own salvation for the sparing of the Israelites by God. There's only two people in the entire Bible that desired God's glory even more than their salvation. Moses and Paul. Phenomenal. But our focus really shouldn't be on what material good comes off of prayer as much as what spiritual lessons prayer teaches. Paul and Moses were given extraordinary titles partly because of their prayerlife.I think you're applying more meaning to predestination than it really entails. I already pointed out one mistake, that God's feelings aren't automatically subject to something that He Himself ordained. Another one perhaps is the whole "God's will" concept. Suppose it was God's will for my friend to die from cancer and the church prayed for her to live, and God answers that petition, He is changing His mind, is He not? Now, now, this is where it can get a little difficult. So.....which result was truly His will, her dying or her not dying? Did we somehow stop Him from accomplishing His will? That's a valid question, no? It is my personal opinion, a believer's prayer is the ONLY key to unlocking God's lock of His will. And so, if I fail to pray about something, I'm essentially being a hindrance to His will. Same applies for the opposite case. When I do pray, I'm facilitating His will in my life..........And so, you see this whole knowledge of predestination really does not interfere with my thinking, as a believer. And I do believe that things happen to people that are not His will. For example, in an unbeliever's life, not every event and occurrence is in accordance to God's will. I'm basically trying to eradicate the idea of "no matter what you do, His will is perfect in His eyes, and cannot be changed" from your mind. I think that when we say that "His will is perfect" (in a believer's life, that is) we are humbling ourselves and submitting our will to His knowing that its outcome will be beneficial. Not that His will is predestined, perfect, and immutable and I can't do anything to change it. Do I make sense?Prayer does really make God work. It dictates/controls the way He reacts to us. Now, are there instances where God says no to prayer? Sure. THATS when I need to think, oh, you know God must know better than I. His will is perfect for me. But its not before I decide to pray that I should think "well, His will is perfect, pre-planned and will happen irrespective of my prayer". Who knows? If I don't pray, it is most probable that His perfect will may NOT happen. The God of the Bible, Most Holy YHWH responds to prayer. Yes. Ah yes, and pulled my leg too. Pink unicorn. Classic. I though FSM was innovative. Heh. I agree. But there's danger is equating belief with Truth and Truth with knowledge. Not all knowledge is truth but all truth is perfect knowledge. So, knowing the Truth will give knowledge. Edited by Dr. Sing, : few words added for clarity, spelling and such....Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by Dr. Sing, : for the bazillionth time, spelling errors. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

Ah. And where do you get this number from?

Okay, we're going to be essentially running around in circles hereafter...(cause' I'm going to say the same thing again: history/time does not impede inspiration and the entire Word (including songs and poems) was inspired)So why don't we take the reverse appraoch? How about you support your claim and I shut up and listen (which I really prefer to do at this point) Fine, if you can't find me a verse (I'm 99.9% sure you can't), atleast answer me this: If Adam was in very way like God, including his perfection, how could he sin? Why did he sin? Do you believe God sins?Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

I never denied this in the first place, to the best of my knowledge. And I gave you a valid reason (actually you gave me) for my not applying mosaic law to my context. All OT is as true and meaningful as much as NT outside its context. Only, some parts are not applicable anymore. I think that's highly understating it. The theme of God's holiness (which in our conversation, I use the word perfection) runs throughout the Bible. There's no dearth of verses that describe it. Understood. So where ICANT and I differ is our definition of perfection and substance. While ICANT perhaps understands perfection (as in sanctity/holiness) to be a single attribute of God (which was passed on to Adam), I understand it to be the the sum of who God is. Hence my use of I Sam 2:2, The word there is holy. The word for holy in Hebrew is quadash, which is derived from the root word qud which means to cut/separate. So when I that say God is holy, that means He is holy/separate/unique in every single attribute of His. IOW, His holiness permeates His attributes making them unique to Him and only Him. And so if God's purity/sanctity/sacredness is holy, (and there is none like Him Hannah says), then clearly Adam was given righteousness/sanctifying grace and not God's holiness itself. Therefore, Adam was not holy/perfect (perfection in sanctity) in the same sense as God is. Do you see the point? It eliminates ambiguity when answering questions as to why why God is impeccable and Adam is peccable. Yep. Again, clash of definitions.But I'm okay with that. I think its more of a interpretation difference than anything else. Well, different people interpret the same thing different ways. I don't think that's wrong so long as the Bible agrees with our conclusions. I've read a good number of ICANT's posts and I agree with him on many things so...Edited by Dr. Sing, : spellingEdited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

You're welcome, Dr. Apothecus So do you still believe some things you did in the past as a believer? My dear Apothecus, I believe He does know exactly what the believers are going to pray for, when, and what outfit they're gonna wear, what kind of cereal they ate for breakfast. A-->Z All I was trying to convey to you was the idea that their prayer is the key to unlocking His will, which otherwise might or might not occur. But, you're right, this is a difficult concept to both explain and grasp. As much as I would like to (and am trying to) make it simple, it just won't become more simpler. I have to admit, I'm not great at explaining things either. So, as long as you're good, I'm good. And I still maintain that He does know. Only, He doesn't invariably do whatever He wants. My prayer influences what He does. Its happened to my family many times and in my own life too. Once, I had $0 to pay for the final installment of tuition....received $ 2000+ in the mail just before finals.....was able to take finals and finish the semester. No matter how hard I try to know the identity of the giver, I can't. Atleast I haven't so far.But you know, I do understand you point. Faith is not an easy thing. And questions aren't bad things. Only, doubt is a dangerous thing.And if love is a lie, then there is no truth....G'night. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

After me explaining so much, you still want to come back to square one? How many times need I tell you that things that are fulfilled need to be treated differently than the rest? God's communicable attributes aren't His defining attributes. And perfection is certainly a defining attribute of God.

Good grief.Fine. God's defining attributes are unique to Him. I just assumed you would think about the nature of His attributes..communicable-incommunicable, moral-nonmoral, independant/incontigent etc and understand what was implied.

Sorry, next time I'll make sure to hand-walk and spoon-feed you. You're doing me a great favor by saving my time. Thank you.