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Author Topic:   Is Jesus God?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 91 of 492 (549077)
03-03-2010 8:59 PM


Has anyone noticed yet that none of the scriptures used by those who believe Jesus is God actually say that 'Jesus IS God
the scriptures presented so far do not directly say that he is God which is why there is a lot of explaination that goes along with them.
On the other hand, there are a multitude of scritpures that directly show Jesus is NOT God and they need no explaining.

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-03-2010 9:25 PM Peg has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 92 of 492 (549079)
03-03-2010 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Peg
03-03-2010 6:52 PM


Re: Perfect sacrifice
what is Gods form?
Im sure you would agree that his form is in 'spirit'. So Jesus was also in Gods form, a spirit, before he came to earth. The angels also exist in Gods form...they are also spirits. This does not mean he was God himself, only that he existed in the same 'form' as God....just as you exist in the same 'form' as every other human.
the Greek word translated in my bible as 'seizure' is harEpagEmon
and the The Expositors Greek Testament says:
We cannot find any passage where [harEpazo] or any of its derivatives [including harEpagEmon] has the sense of holding in possession, retaining. It seems invariably to mean seize, snatch violently.
So, No. Jesus did not 'possess' the form of God in the sense that you are thinking. This word carries a negative connotation to it...it means to take something illegally. Paul is saying that Jesus did not try to make himself 'equal' to God. Jesus did not even consider that he was equal to God. And this is in harmony with his own words found at John 14:28 where he said The Father is greater than I.
A masterful attempt I must admit, but my debate instructors would be disapointed if I had missed such an obvious evasion. They taught that if something is clearly in violation of the truth it will pop out at you, read it and read it again.
Here it is.
You discussed form and seizure but you missed the only thing in the passage that makes sense to the passage, the word equal. The word usedhere in this passage I understand is that of that of a triangle, EQUAL IN ALL ITS PARTS, that its meaning in the original correct.
So form and seizure are trumped by the word equal. So his form and the fact that he was equal in all his parts to God, make it obvious that he could not violently seize what was already his. He also considered it a thing not to be violently siezed, but he cannot empty of somting he doesnotpossess
Now watch, for the passage to make sense, he EMPTIED himself of that EQUALITY, to take on the form of a servant.
So perhaps you could translate the word EQUAL for us.
even your' own translation does not say that he is God in this passage.
All it says is that Jesus did not consider himself equal to God.
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped
If Jesus was God then he was also equal to God, yet Paul is saying that Jesus did not consider himself equal to God. Thats a terrible contradiction to make if Jesus was infact equal to God.
peg I dont know anybody that would read the above verse and come to your conclusion.
For your interpretation to make sense we would have to assume Paul or Christ might have believed Christ was equal to God in the first place. if Christ is the humble individual he was said to be, why would Paul need to assume that anybody thought that in the first place.
IOW why use terminology that states that Jesus is not God and not equal to God to demonstrate Christ was humble. A bit far fetched dont you think?
No disresect Peg but it does demonstrate how a simple statment and verse can be mutilated beyond reason
MEA writes:
If God is the only good entity, how is it that Christ was not good? Hmmm?
this verse was mentioned earlier, but it doesnt imply that Jesus is God himself. It implies that Jesus view is that God alone is the standard for goodness. Jesus did not view himself as the one who set that standard, If Jesus was God, then his comment of reproof would make no sense at all.
Mark 10:17 Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life? Jesus said to him: Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God.
Jesus never objected to being identified as the leader or the master or teacher, but he did object when someone addressed him with titles. He really showed his view of the matter by indicating that only God was deserving of such title....this puts a damper on the trinity teaching because if only God should be called good, what about the holy spirit and the son who are supposed to all be one and the same???
they are Peg
My point exacally . Good form and courtesy would requie that I not point out that you avoided the question. If God is the only good entity, then how was Christ not good. Was there a aspect of his nature that was not complete or good
Only God can carry the title of Good because he sets the standard for goodness, no one else sets that standard.
Was there anyway in which Christ didnot do this, was there any aspect of him that could be considered not good
BTW, when we are finished here would like to discuss more of you or my beliefs?
EAM
Edited by MEA, : No reason given.
Edited by MEA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Peg, posted 03-03-2010 6:52 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Peg, posted 03-03-2010 11:44 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 93 of 492 (549080)
03-03-2010 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Peg
03-03-2010 8:59 PM


Has anyone noticed yet that none of the scriptures used by those who believe Jesus is God actually say that 'Jesus IS God
the scriptures presented so far do not directly say that he is God which is why there is a lot of explaination that goes along with them.
On the other hand, there are a multitude of scritpures that directly show Jesus is NOT God and they need no explaining.
I cant force Phil 2 down your throat Peg but anythingking person can see what it is saying. EXPLANATION is only required when simple readings and simple meanings are circumvented
You know Christ is completely good and that makes him God, if only God is good, perhaps you could explain in what area he is missing the mark of not being good .
Further Peg, and I know you believe in the totality of scripture and how some scriptures take priority over others. In this connection I have demonstrated over and over, that Son of God is superior to Son of Man and I demnstratd that passages hat directly or indirectly imply his deity and God head even superceed that of the Son of God.
the passagesyou used should be understood in connection with the idea of humility and becoming a servant.
the bottom line there would be NO VALID REASON TO SAY JESUS IS EQUAL TO GOD, if he was not. Again, there would be no valid reason to say he WAS NOT GOD, if he indeed was not. It only makes since to point out that he is equal to God, to demonstrate what he did AND WHAT HE GAVE UP.
Only God is sinless and he is therfore both the JUST andthe Justifier
Col states that ALL things were made by and through, there is NOTHING THAT IS MADE, that was not made by him. He did notcreate himself
EAM
Edited by MEA, : No reason given.
Edited by MEA, : No reason given.
Edited by MEA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Peg, posted 03-03-2010 8:59 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Peg, posted 03-03-2010 11:49 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 94 of 492 (549089)
03-03-2010 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Peg
03-03-2010 7:19 PM


Re: Alpha and Omega
hERICtic writes:
I have read that in the oldest translations, Alpha and Omega are not even in the texts. It should read:
Revelation 1:11 11 saying, "Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Per'gamum and to Thyati'ra and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to La-odice'a." (RSV)
Have you ever heard of this?
Rev 1:8 has "the Alpha and the Omega," even in the oldest manuscripts. Some later manuscripts also add "the beginning and the end," but this is probably a later addition. Neither phrase occurs in Rev 1:11.
quote:
Because this expression is applied to God Almighty several times in its unlimited sense, it would be illogical to apply it to Jesus just because the text in revelation does not specifically indicated that it is refering to God Amighty.
This only seems illogical to one who has an a priori rejection of the Trinity. (Circular reasoning again!)
quote:
This is what Trinitarians are doing with the verses in Revelation. They try to show it is used indiscriminately for either God or Christ, and in this way show God and Christ are the same.
There is nothing "indiscriminate" about the language of the Word of God. Other than this, you have accurately summarized the argument.

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 Message 89 by Peg, posted 03-03-2010 7:19 PM Peg has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 95 of 492 (549091)
03-03-2010 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
02-24-2010 6:53 PM


Jesus accepted worship
quote:
If anyone has more scriptures, please put them on the table and im pretty sure they can be shown to not mean what they are purported to mean.
The Old Testament taught that no one is to be worshiped except for God alone. Jesus believed and reiterated this:
NET Bible writes:
Luke 4:8 Jesus answered him, It is written, ‘You are to worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’
So how did Jesus respond when Thomas addressed Him as God?
NET Bible writes:
John 20:28 Thomas replied to him, My Lord and my God!
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed.
Rather than rebuking Thomas or reminding him that only God is to be worshiped, Jesus accepted his worship and praised Thomas for his faith. In accepting the worship due to God alone, Jesus was implicitly claiming to be God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 02-24-2010 6:53 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Peg, posted 03-04-2010 12:00 AM kbertsche has replied
 Message 106 by hERICtic, posted 03-04-2010 5:23 AM kbertsche has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 96 of 492 (549092)
03-03-2010 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
02-24-2010 6:53 PM


Jesus gives life
quote:
If anyone has more scriptures, please put them on the table and im pretty sure they can be shown to not mean what they are purported to mean.
According to the Old Testament, only God has power to give life. Man does not have this power:
NET Bible writes:
1Sam. 2:6 The LORD both kills and gives life;
he brings down to the grave and raises up.
Psa. 104:29 When you ignore them, they panic.
When you take away their life’s breath, they die
and return to dust.
Psa. 104:30 When you send your life-giving breath, they are created,
and you replenish the surface of the ground.
Psa. 119:116 Sustain me as you promised, so that I will live.
Do not disappoint me!
But Jesus claimed and demonstrated the power to give life:
NET Bible writes:
John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live even if he dies,
John 11:26 and the one who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?
John 11:43 When he had said this, he shouted in a loud voice, Lazarus, come out!
John 11:44 The one who had died came out, his feet and hands tied up with strips of cloth, and a cloth wrapped around his face. Jesus said to them, Unwrap him and let him go.
In claiming and demonstrating the ability to give life, a power belonging to God alone, Jesus was claiming and demonstrating that He was God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 02-24-2010 6:53 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Peg, posted 03-04-2010 12:06 AM kbertsche has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 97 of 492 (549094)
03-03-2010 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by hERICtic
03-03-2010 7:31 AM


Re: Hebrews 1:8
quote:
Hello again. Before I go over each verse, just a simple question. The Jews believed the messiah was to be a man. You're claiming the Hebrews stated the messiah will be god. This would be utter blasphemy to the Jews. Why would this book be included? Wouldnt there be an uproar amongst the Jews? Ok, its more than one question, but you get the idea
A number of OT prophecies of the Messiah suggest that He will be more than a man, and will in fact be God in the flesh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by hERICtic, posted 03-03-2010 7:31 AM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Peg, posted 03-04-2010 12:07 AM kbertsche has replied
 Message 105 by hERICtic, posted 03-04-2010 5:11 AM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 98 of 492 (549096)
03-03-2010 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dawn Bertot
03-03-2010 9:22 PM


Re: Perfect sacrifice
MEA writes:
IOW why use terminology that states that Jesus is not God and not equal to God to demonstrate Christ was humble. A bit far fetched dont you think?
Paul wasnt doing that.
He was encouraging christians to be humble like Christ. His words taught them that no one should think they are equal to God...even Christ 'gave no consideration' to such a notion, that he might or should be equal to God.
Christians had to be like Jesus, their Lord, and also remain humble before their God.
MEA writes:
Good form and courtesy would requie that I not point out that you avoided the question. If God is the only good entity, then how was Christ not good. Was there a aspect of his nature that was not complete or good
I didnt avoid the question, i provided numerous scriptures where other imperfect people are called 'good'
because of that, you cant say that if jesus said only God is good, that everyone else is not. The fact is that, as i mentioned, the ruler was addressing Jesus with the title 'Good Teacher'
jesus did not appreciate being called by such title for he beleived that such titles only belong to God....because God is the originator of the very quality of goodness, so the title of Good rightly belongs to him alone.
MEA writes:
Was there anyway in which Christ didnot do this, was there any aspect of him that could be considered not good
Christ did do this by becoming an imitator of God. He represented God perfectly. Hebrews 1:3 says that he is the reflection of [God’s] glory, but of course, God is the source that relection.
MEA writes:
BTW, when we are finished here would like to discuss more of you or my beliefs?
Absolutely.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-03-2010 9:22 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-04-2010 9:47 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 99 of 492 (549097)
03-03-2010 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Dawn Bertot
03-03-2010 9:25 PM


MEA writes:
Only God is sinless and he is therfore both the JUST andthe Justifier
are the Angels of God who surround his throne sinners?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-03-2010 9:25 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-04-2010 12:45 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 100 of 492 (549098)
03-04-2010 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by kbertsche
03-03-2010 11:01 PM


Re: Jesus accepted worship
kbertsche writes:
Rather than rebuking Thomas or reminding him that only God is to be worshiped, Jesus accepted his worship and praised Thomas for his faith. In accepting the worship due to God alone, Jesus was implicitly claiming to be God.
the context of that passage does not show Thomas to be worshiping jesus.
what it does show is that 'doubting' Thomas was not convinced that Jesus had risen from the dead and had been seen by the other diciples. When Jesus, in his resurrected body, proceeded to show him the wound marks, Thomas was struck with awe and came to accept that it was Jesus. His remark
"My Lord and my God" is not out of harmony with who the Messiah was.
Isaiah 9:6 There has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
the word god is simply a title, it is not a name of the Almighty. Perhaps you'd have a case if Thomas called Jesus 'Jehovah' but he didnt. He simply acknowledged that Jesus was a mighty god.
Why would Jesus rebuke Thomas considering the Messiah was called a 'Mighty God' by Isaiah. This title is in perfect harmony with scripture and it in no way implies that Jesus is God Almighty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by kbertsche, posted 03-03-2010 11:01 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by kbertsche, posted 03-04-2010 3:05 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 101 of 492 (549099)
03-04-2010 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by kbertsche
03-03-2010 11:28 PM


Re: Jesus gives life
kbertsche writes:
In claiming and demonstrating the ability to give life, a power belonging to God alone, Jesus was claiming and demonstrating that He was God.
Like Jesus, Elijah the prophet performed many miracles including resurrecting a boy to life. Does this mean that Elijah was also God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by kbertsche, posted 03-03-2010 11:28 PM kbertsche has replied

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 102 of 492 (549100)
03-04-2010 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by kbertsche
03-03-2010 11:30 PM


Re: Hebrews 1:8
kbertsche writes:
A number of OT prophecies of the Messiah suggest that He will be more than a man, and will in fact be God in the flesh.
which verses would those be?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by kbertsche, posted 03-03-2010 11:30 PM kbertsche has replied

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 Message 115 by kbertsche, posted 03-04-2010 3:14 PM Peg has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 103 of 492 (549101)
03-04-2010 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
02-24-2010 6:53 PM


Rom 10: Jesus is LORD (YHWH)
quote:
If anyone has more scriptures, please put them on the table and im pretty sure they can be shown to not mean what they are purported to mean.
Jesus is commonly referred to as "Lord" in the New Testament. Rom 10 is interesting:
NET Bible writes:
Rom. 10:9 because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Paul rephrases this claim about Jesus a few verses later:
NET Bible writes:
Rom. 10:13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
The word "Lord" in these verses is the Greek kurios. But Rom 10:13 is a quote from the Old Testament:
NET Bible writes:
Joel 2:32 It will so happen that
everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered.
The word LORD here is the Hebrew YHWH (God). Thus in Rom 10, Paul is equating Jesus with YHWH.
NET Bible has a note on the phrase "Jesus is Lord" in Rom 10:9:
NET Bible translator's note writes:
Or the Lord. The Greek construction, along with the quotation from Joel 2:32 in v. 13 (in which the same Lord seems to be in view) suggests that kurion is to be taken as the Lord, that is, Yahweh. Cf. D. B. Wallace, The Semantics and Exegetical Significance of the Object-Complement Construction in the New Testament, GTJ 6 (1985): 91-112.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 02-24-2010 6:53 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Peg, posted 03-04-2010 5:26 AM kbertsche has replied
 Message 108 by hERICtic, posted 03-04-2010 5:35 AM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 104 of 492 (549102)
03-04-2010 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Peg
03-03-2010 11:49 PM


are the Angels of God who surround his throne sinners?
Not sinners Peg, but those that have commited acts or thoughts contrary toGods will. Sinners carries the idea with it that it is continuous action.
"For if we sin wilfully after we have recieved the knowledge of truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sin." herews
if there are none Good but God, then it would follow that even angels sin (as did satan and the demonsthat followed him), they however persisted in thier sin, others actions are simple mistakes as those that closely follow God now
It is my guess that the blood of Christ applies even in heaven, as all authority is his there as well
it would be unreasonable to assume that if angels have free will that they do not sin.
it is generally assumed that when angels sin they are immediatley expelled. This however, is easily refuted in the respect that Satan DID NOT COME TO HIS FOLLY AND PRIDE OVER NIGHT.
Much forgiveness was probably involved in his actions until like Sodom it was determined that enough was enough.
So yes there is every indication fromboth reason and scripture that they do have sin, but are not SINNERS
EAM
Edited by MEA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Peg, posted 03-03-2010 11:49 PM Peg has replied

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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 105 of 492 (549114)
03-04-2010 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by kbertsche
03-03-2010 11:30 PM


Re: Hebrews 1:8
KB writes:
A number of OT prophecies of the Messiah suggest that He will be more than a man, and will in fact be God in the flesh.
Which ones?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by kbertsche, posted 03-03-2010 11:30 PM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

  
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