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Author Topic:   Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 151 of 477 (549349)
03-06-2010 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Pauline
03-03-2010 3:11 PM


Re: Mental Gymnastics or Faith?
Dr Sing writes:
Bluejay writes:
Notice that 1 Samuel 2:2 was written a considerable time after the Fall of Adam, which means that Adam is no longer "perfect" by any standard at this time.
It doesn't matter when the ink was spilled on paper. God formed the Bible, so to speak, before the world was created.
Let’s go with this for a minute. In Leviticus, chapter 1, a description is given for the way to obtain forgiveness for one’s sins. Basically, you have to kill and dismember a sheep, a goat or a bird, sprinkle some blood around on the ground, and toss some specified animal parts in specific directions.
Do you perform this ordinance in order to have your sins forgiven?
No, of course not: it was done away with by the Atonement of Christ.
But, it’s in the Bible! Just like Hannah’s psalm is in the Bible! You said it doesn’t matter when the ink was spilled on the paper, because God formed the Bible before the world was created.
So, why does the psalm of Hannah apply across all the major turning points in Christian history (i.e. the Fall, the Flood, the Atonement, etc.), but these other scriptures do not?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Pauline, posted 03-03-2010 3:11 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Pauline, posted 03-06-2010 6:16 PM Blue Jay has replied

Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 152 of 477 (549385)
03-06-2010 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Pauline
03-05-2010 11:59 PM


Re: And 'round and 'round we go...
Thanks for the replies, Dr. Sing.
Well, suffice it to say that we disagree. I'm ok with that.
Let me offer you the invitation to stick around the forum. I, for one, think this place gets a little dull when there's no one to argue with. Sure, most of the regulars here are great with words and ideas, but unless there are others to bat those words back at us and make us think, it's like "preaching to the choir".
Thin skins need not apply, though. You've seen that replies can get a little rough, but c'mon, it's the internet and thus, anonymous. Stick to the forum rules and it won't matter what you believe, FSM, IPUs or crazy Calvinist dogma.
Have a good one, Dr. S.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Pauline, posted 03-05-2010 11:59 PM Pauline has not replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 153 of 477 (549394)
03-06-2010 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Blue Jay
03-06-2010 2:17 AM


Re: Mental Gymnastics or Faith?
Bluejay writes:
Let’s go with this for a minute. In Leviticus, chapter 1, a description is given for the way to obtain forgiveness for one’s sins. Basically, you have to kill and dismember a sheep, a goat or a bird, sprinkle some blood around on the ground, and toss some specified animal parts in specific directions.
Do you perform this ordinance in order to have your sins forgiven?
No, of course not: it was done away with by the Atonement of Christ.
But, it’s in the Bible! Just like Hannah’s psalm is in the Bible! You said it doesn’t matter when the ink was spilled on the paper, because God formed the Bible before the world was created.
So, why does the psalm of Hannah apply across all the major turning points in Christian history (i.e. the Fall, the Flood, the Atonement, etc.), but these other scriptures do not?
Are you really asking me this? Its funny, because you have your answer and yet you ask me.
Apothecus writes:
Thanks for the replies, Dr. Sing.
Well, suffice it to say that we disagree. I'm ok with that.
Hmmm, I didn't intend to sound like I'm not open to discussion. So, if you ever care to discuss the points of disagreement in a different thread, I'd be happy to be there
Let me offer you the invitation to stick around the forum. I, for one, think this place gets a little dull when there's no one to argue with. Sure, most of the regulars here are great with words and ideas, but unless there are others to bat those words back at us and make us think, it's like "preaching to the choir".
Why, thank you, Dr. Apothecus. Even if it occurs that I get bashed often, I like this forum. Its different from most others I;ve debated on. Its addictive. Good place, I like it.
Thin skins need not apply, though. You've seen that replies can get a little rough, but c'mon, it's the internet and thus, anonymous. Stick to the forum rules and it won't matter what you believe, FSM, IPUs or crazy Calvinist dogma.
I've actually had skin-thickening experiences on here and I'm sure they never run out, so don't worry. What's IPU? Heard of FSM, but never IPU......oh, and never heard of CRAZY Calvinist dogma....heard of Calvinism, though
Have a good one, Dr. S.
Farewell. May we meet in another thread and discuss another topic sometime in the future.
PS: I'm disappointed. I was expecting some feedback from you on my answer about prayer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Blue Jay, posted 03-06-2010 2:17 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Blue Jay, posted 03-07-2010 8:25 PM Pauline has replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 154 of 477 (549457)
03-07-2010 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Pauline
03-06-2010 6:16 PM


Re: Mental Gymnastics or Faith?
Dr. Sing.
Dr. Sing writes:
Are you really asking me this? Its funny, because you have your answer and yet you ask me.
I realize that English is not your first language, but, given the fluency you display in writing, it still shouldn't be this hard for you to understand what's being said to you.
You happily accepted that the method of atonement for sins changed between eras of biblical history, such that an entire portion of the Bible can be disregarded.
But then, when faced with the possibility of another thing changing across different eras in biblical history, you categorically deny it with no supporting evidence.
In fact, the Bible directly contradicts your viewpoint by stating that Adam was perfect, and you have instead chosen to interpret "perfect" as meaning two different things, rather than accept the possibility that this particular situation may have changed.
There is no consistency in your interpretation of scripture!

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Pauline, posted 03-06-2010 6:16 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Pauline, posted 03-07-2010 9:18 PM Blue Jay has replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 155 of 477 (549459)
03-07-2010 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Blue Jay
03-07-2010 8:25 PM


Re: Mental Gymnastics or Faith?
BJ writes:
I realize that English is not your first language, but, given the fluency you display in writing, it still shouldn't be this hard for you to understand what's being said to you.
I English know not, Bluejay. Mercy me have on, please. I reply try to message yours.....okay?
You happily accepted that the method of atonement for sins changed between eras of biblical history, such that an entire portion of the Bible can be disregarded.
But then, when faced with the possibility of another thing changing across different eras in biblical history, you categorically deny it with no supporting evidence.
I never said that portions of the Bible can be disregarded. As years go by, prophecies get fulfilled and we no longer practice former customs and traditions. Hannah's homage is not a prophecy that is yet to fulfilled, unlike Mosaic Law, which was embodied, personified, and fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ.
Obviously, God knew that we humans cannot ever follow every single law given through Moses. Therefore, God sends Jesus (who is perfect and holy) who agrees to buy back lost people from sin. Once bought by Jesus, I need no longer follow Mosaic Law. That's why I don't sacrifice rams, and doves anymore. Jesus' righteousness is my righteousness.
But Hannah's homage......I really don't see why you compare it to the law and Christ's fulfillment of it. There is no comparison. One thing that could be causing ambiguity perhaps is the thought that the Bible is a product of human imagination. And so if you look at it that way, yes, it doesn't make sense to compare God's perfectness with anyone else's when the world is full of imperfect people. But when you believe that the Word was formed, so to speak, even before the writers were born, then yes, it makes sense for God to compare His perfectness with men's (because one man had human perfection, Adam) and tell us that His is unique to Him only. Are you suggesting that there is only one definition of perfect and both God and Adam were that? And are you deriving this conclusion from the Bible? If so, could you give me some references from the Bible to support your claim? Please don't tell me, that that stands to reason and that I'm dumb. I'd like some Bible verses.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : refining..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Blue Jay, posted 03-07-2010 8:25 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Blue Jay, posted 03-08-2010 9:28 AM Pauline has replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 156 of 477 (549489)
03-08-2010 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Pauline
03-07-2010 9:18 PM


Re: Mental Gymnastics or Faith?
Dr. Sing.
Dr. Sing writes:
I English know not, Bluejay. Mercy me have on, please. I reply try to message yours.....okay?
Good stuff.
-----
Dr. Sing writes:
One thing that could be causing ambiguity perhaps is the thought that the Bible is a product of human imagination.
Some of it certainly is. However, I'm not an atheist, despite appearances: I'm a Christian myself.
Full disclosure: I don't know or care if Adam was a different "perfect" than God. I have only noticed that there is an inconsistency in how you're reading the Bible, and I want to expose that inconsistency.
-----
Dr. Sing writes:
Are you suggesting that there is only one definition of perfect and both God and Adam were that? And are you deriving this conclusion from the Bible? If so, could you give me some references from the Bible to support your claim?
What? Now I have to prove that a word means the same thing when it is used in two different places?
Your support for the notion that Adam was a different kind of "perfect" comes from a 1 Samuel.
I pointed out to you that, between the time when Adam was "perfect" and 1 Samuel, one major, world-changing event occurred: the Fall.
Things before the Fall are not necessarily equivalent to things after the Fall.
Likewise, things before the Atonement are not necessarily equivalent to things after the Atonement.
You believe that what was written before the Atonement does not apply to people after the Atonement, and that what was written after the Atonement does not apply to people before the Atonement.
But, you believe that what was written after the Fall does apply to people before the Fall.
This is not logical. Do you believe that the Fall brought about changes?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Pauline, posted 03-07-2010 9:18 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Pauline, posted 03-08-2010 4:46 PM Blue Jay has replied

Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


(1)
Message 157 of 477 (549504)
03-08-2010 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Pauline
03-05-2010 11:59 PM


Re: And 'round and 'round we go...
Hey there, Dr. Sing.
Sorry if it seemed like I cut the conversation short, but your (very lengthy) post seemed to be a sort of summation of sorts. Thanks for your thoughtful reply, and I'll keep it going if you'd like...
But when you focus on the latter part of the paragraph (which I bolded for you), my point there is that God is actually organizing, orchestrating, guiding, directing, coordinating, and conducting events.
Even when I was a full-fledged believer and accepted the omniscience of god, I still couldn't reconcile this in my mind. I believed God knows all and has known all since before time, but at the same time I couldn't understand how, if indeed this is true, all this "organizing, guiding, etc..." isn't all just contrived.
Christians say god created humans in part, for "his pleasure", correct? What sort of pleasure do you suppose god experiences when, from the beginning of time: 1. He knows what every human will ever think, do, accomplish, say etc... 2. He knows what his thoughts, feelings, reactions will be to all this? It's (somewhat) akin to a skilled engineer and programmer developing a sophisticated artificially intelligent robot. No matter what that robot does or says, the designer, having constructed and written all the computer program code for the machine, cannot be but underwhelmed at the anticipated responses and actions of said robot. I understand that, in a way, this is a bit of a weak analogy since even the most jaded individual couldn't help but feel satisfaction about his creation. But remember: said individual does not exhibit omniscience, and thus cannot know or predict his own varied reactions, unlike god. Alas, the weakness of the analogy. But you do get my drift, no?
Well, with no director to visualize the screenplay, no producer to create scenes and settings, and no cinematographer to arrange the set and lighting, what good is the screenplay? No good.
Ah, at least I'm not the only one with weak analogies. Again, that's all well and good. But again, how is this "active role" not contrived? At frame X in the film reel from 2008, god decides to create an ice dam in the shingles of my home, creating water leakage into my attic. But this flim reel is from before time, god knew what he (and I and my insurance company and the roofing company, and the city, etc, etc...) would do from before time, so what sort of "active role" do you think god really has, at present? I say again, if everything is predestined, what kind of active role do you see happening today? At most, it seems from a predestination standpoint, god is the ancient scriptwriter of scriptwriters, and that, after setting it all down on paper (or film, to continue the analogy), has no choice but to let it all play out. As he predestined everything to be in the first place.
See where I'm coming from? God is powerful on the one hand in having the ability to put forth the story in the first place, but in relegating himself to watching as his perfect (perfect from before time, as god is perfect himself) storyline plays out (albeit with himself occupying a BIG role), becomes the weakest sort of god, unable to alter the storyline once written.
And that's aside from the fact that it's still just a storyline, even if you think god can be "active" and change the plan he predestined from before time. If it was perfect from the get-go, why would he need to mess with it after the fact?
Also, God's feelings aren't predestined, I don't think.
Do you have any basis for this, other than your own opinion? It seems to me that this is a contradiction to the idea of predestination. So only some things are predestined? If god is perfect from before time, how could he have anything but the feelings he knew he would have from before time? Nasty vicious circle we're locked up in here, Dr. Sing...
These are just two passages form the Bible that give sure proof for God's knowledge of future events
Thanks for those verses. I understand we're in the faith and belief section of the forum, and I also understand I "asked for it" in baiting you in that way, but forgive me if I see this as "proving the bible with the bible." What you showed me were two verses (and I know there are more) which purport to demonstrate precognition in the bible, but I'd stop short of claiming "proof". And, of course, in order to concede the point of "proof", we'd both need to assume total biblical "god breathed" inspiration, and unfortunately, one of us does not. Oh, and as an aside, I believe the world has seen enough failed "prophecies" to at least seriously question omniscience and a totally god-inspired bible. But we're not exactly debating scripture here, so back to the topic...
I pray to foster a relationship with Him.
Great answer! That's what I was looking for, Dr. Sing! But then:
Like right now I need a car (badly!). And I'm asking Him for one.
So close, yet so far away. I can accept the "personal relationship" as a facet in your "walk with god", but then - enter the material prayer request. And, yes, I understand (and read) your thoughts on the fact that your "worldly works" and desire to please god should have no bearing on how often you think you should receive material items in response to prayer.
But of course my opinion on prayer shouldn't surprise you, Dr. Sing, especially in light of my views of predestinatory thought. Setting aside the "fostering a relationship" aspect to prayer - everything's been set down in the script long ago: what difference does it make whether we pray or not? Praying for god to "change her mind" is a bit of a pipe dream, no? God is perfect, thus what will be due to god's will, will be. According to predestination, any "mind-changing" re: god will have been written before creation, so how, exactly, can anything change?
For example, your friend is diagnosed ("god" forbid ) with cancer - a predestined occurrence, of course. It may as well be written in stone that your friend will come through chemo, radiation and gene therapy like a champ, and enjoy the rest of her long life in remission. So did your prayer, all the group prayer, and all the prayer requests in church do anything to change what, in effect, was preordained to happen from time aeternal? A perfect god cannot "hear" (there's that anthropomorphistic gremlin again) prayer and "change her mind" from "Dead From Cancer" to "Healthy Post-Cancer Patient In Remission Against All Odds" no matter how much your prayer group wishes it were so. You see, you would then no longer have your "perfect god".
Same goes for your car. You'll either get one, or not.
He cannot claim to be a just God and NOT send some people to hell.
Well, of course there isn't enough room in heaven for everyone. (Don't be offended, Dr. Sing. I'm making light, but I appreciate your heartfelt description of your faith)
He can' t lie.
Otherwise, she can't be perfect, correct? What about changing her mind?
Heard of FSM, but never IPU......oh, and never heard of CRAZY Calvinist dogma....heard of Calvinism, though
Just thought I'd yank your chain with the CRAZY part. You seem pretty "together" to me... Oh, and IPU = Immaterial Pink Unicorn.
I apologize if my answers don't match up to your expectations.
Nah, no apologies necessary, because there were no real expectations to begin with. I appreciate the dialogue.
But I hope you will find the Truth one day and may it satisfy all your questions.
I believe I've found my version of "truth", although most of us forget at one time or another that we need to keep in mind that belief will never be the same as knowledge, yes? We'll all either gain this knowledge at "some" point, or ... we won't.
Have a good one.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Pauline, posted 03-05-2010 11:59 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Pauline, posted 03-08-2010 5:22 PM Apothecus has replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


(1)
Message 158 of 477 (549541)
03-08-2010 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Blue Jay
03-08-2010 9:28 AM


Re: Mental Gymnastics or Faith?
'm a Christian myself.
I inferred as much from reading some of your posts. But your beliefs do intrigue me, if I may be allowed to say that...
What? Now I have to prove that a word means the same thing when it is used in two different places?
Please. Just show me only verse in the Bible that claims Adam to be equal to God the Father/Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit in substance. Thats all, one verse.
Your support for the notion that Adam was a different kind of "perfect" comes from a 1 Samuel.
That was just one Scripture passage to supprt my claim, actually. I also gave you Romans 5. And I'll now present another passage that supports my belief:
I Cor 15: 35 But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven
Paul's main thrust here is, resurrection from the spiritual death caused by Adam (to all mankind) made available by spiritual life through Christ alone. Basically, Paul is dealing with the Corinthian believers' belief that there is no resurrection. He goes to the root of why we even need to make a distinction between the natural and spiritual bodies. And He clearly claims that the "spiritual" (Christ) came after the "natural" (Adam): verse 46. Why the distinction if both are of the same substance, IOW, if both ,as you say were perfect in the same sense? Why the use of the word "natural" for Adam? And notice this amazing verse: 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. I take this verse to clearly be talking about the substances of Adam and God. Adam was created a living being-- that's it, nothing divine about him. (Please do not take this to imply that he was imperfect, no, he did posses certain qualities that rendered him a righteous man, sancticfying grace for example). And I think this next verse is the grand summation of the argument: 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. ---Meaning, the first man while possessing righteousness was still a "man" i.e dust. You see, it is possible to have a perfect man who is NOT God. If Adam was of the same substance as God, then sheesh, why did he not "resurrect" and pay for his own sins? Furthermore, Bluejay, how can God sin? If He does, is He God?
I pointed out to you that, between the time when Adam was "perfect" and 1 Samuel, one major, world-changing event occurred: the Fall.
Things before the Fall are not necessarily equivalent to things after the Fall.
Likewise, things before the Atonement are not necessarily equivalent to things after the Atonement.
Wait, wait ,wait, wait. I lost you. "Things before the atonement are not necessarily equivalent to things after the Atonement." Do you mean they are not as important? Are they outdated?
You believe that what was written before the Atonement does not apply to people after the Atonement, and that what was written after the Atonement does not apply to people before the Atonement.
Why? Not because the things before Atonement were somehow "less quality". Christ is the fulfillment of Mosaic Law. That doesn't render Mosaic law as outdated/not worthy to be followed anymore. You see, there's a reason why I don't apply Mosaic law to my life today: fulfillment of it by Christ on Dr.sing's behalf. Which gives me the right not to apply Mosaic Law to my life.
But, you believe that what was written after the Fall does apply to people before the Fall.
Yes. Because Hannah wasn't sitting in her garden one day entertaining blissful, poetic thoughts, penning epic homages all of her own imagination. Samuel included those words on God's command, who is omniscient, who is not bound by time, who is not limited to writing stuff within limitations posed by the succession of events during history's course, and the limit you seem to be placing in His way is the Fall, a purely historical event--which He is not limited by time and history. You and I are. Instead, He is using the fall to make His point.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Blue Jay, posted 03-08-2010 9:28 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Blue Jay, posted 03-08-2010 9:43 PM Pauline has replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 159 of 477 (549546)
03-08-2010 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Apothecus
03-08-2010 12:34 PM


Re: And 'round and 'round we go...
Hey Apothecus,
Even when I was a full-fledged believer and accepted the omniscience of god, I still couldn't reconcile this in my mind. I believed God knows all and has known all since before time, but at the same time I couldn't understand how, if indeed this is true, all this "organizing, guiding, etc..." isn't all just contrived.
Christians say god created humans in part, for "his pleasure", correct? What sort of pleasure do you suppose god experiences when, from the beginning of time: 1. He knows what every human will ever think, do, accomplish, say etc... 2. He knows what his thoughts, feelings, reactions will be to all this? It's (somewhat) akin to a skilled engineer and programmer developing a sophisticated artificially intelligent robot. No matter what that robot does or says, the designer, having constructed and written all the computer program code for the machine, cannot be but underwhelmed at the anticipated responses and actions of said robot. you do get my drift, no?
Nice analogy. Except robots don't have freewill. Which implies you can predict their actions. Not so with human. Tell me, Apothecus, if God is sitting up there in Heaven waiting for a certain believer to pray for something because He cant wait to give it to Him, does such a situation not invoke feelings of anticipation? excitement? In both God and the believer. God is sitting there hoping that the believer will pray, speaking to him, bringing people, circumstances, etc etc to guide him, just so he can receive God's gift. Imagine. Is such a situation as "contrived" as you imagine it to be? And when the believer does pray and receive the gift, is his faith not strengthened? And does that not make both God and him content? Has the believer not grown spiritually? Is all of this just "contrived"? I don't think so. People surely can and often do change God's plans through their behavior, be it to a positive or a negative end.
There is pleasure is God's fellowshipping with man. The pleasure of seeing His children interact with Him. The pleasure of His being able to honor their faith. The pleasure of bestowing benefits in their lives. The pleasure of forgivening them when they repent. The pleasure of cheering them on, giving them grace during their temptations. The ultimate pleasure of saying "well done, good and faithful servant" at the end. The pleasure of being one in spirit with His children.
That's my take on it.
But again, how is this "active role" not contrived? At frame X in the film reel from 2008, god decides to create an ice dam in the shingles of my home, creating water leakage into my attic. But this flim reel is from before time, god knew what he (and I and my insurance company and the roofing company, and the city, etc, etc...) would do from before time, so what sort of "active role" do you think god really has, at present?
Lets introduce a twist into the story, shall we? Lets put me in place of you. So, said incident happens to Dr. Sing. (Dr. Sing is a believer). Good so far?
Lets also suppose I'm a poor person. (which I am actually. Heh) And I have absolutely no money to pay for all the work that needs to go into the repair. What if I prayed then? And what if God sent money through some anonymous person? My problem is solved. But that isn't my point. My point is, that God used that indicent to strengthen ny faith. To make me realize He cares for me, thinks about me. This is precisely that kind of pleasure that I think God created us for. To just experience each other. God and we.
God is powerful on the one hand in having the ability to put forth the story in the first place, but in relegating himself to watching as his perfect (perfect from before time, as god is perfect himself) storyline plays out (albeit with himself occupying a BIG role), becomes the weakest sort of god, unable to alter the storyline once written.
Ah. No, I,...wait. Here, look at this verse,
I Cor 15: 27For he "has put everything under his feet." now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself.
So, is predestination above God, or is God above predestination? The Bible indicates that predestination was ordained by God, which obviates predestination of His feelings/actions unless its self-imposed. While God is omniscient, He doesn't predestine human feelings and actions. Freewill was given for a purpose, no? The one thing that the Bible seems to clearly indicate is the predestination of the eternal fate of people. I need to study more of the Bible and Calvin before I can justify non-predestination of human feelings and actions. Someday....
Do you have any basis for this, other than your own opinion? It seems to me that this is a contradiction to the idea of predestination. So only some things are predestined? If god is perfect from before time, how could he have anything but the feelings he knew he would have from before time? Nasty vicious circle we're locked up in here, Dr. Sing...
I just gave you the verse. And we have the ability to get ourselves out of it too, if only we give God the authority He deserves.
And, of course, in order to concede the point of "proof", we'd both need to assume total biblical "god breathed" inspiration, and unfortunately, one of us does not.
Ahh, yes. Why did I forget that? Excuse my use of the word "proof". However, I believe that there is nothing wrong in proving the Bible from the Bible.
Same goes for your car. You'll either get one, or not.
Well, the real question is whether or not what happens in reality is reflective of whether or not I pray for a car. There's a spiritual lesson to be learnt in every situation, I believe. Who knows what lesson God is trying to teach me? I'll find out.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : refining
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Apothecus, posted 03-08-2010 12:34 PM Apothecus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Apothecus, posted 03-09-2010 6:09 PM Pauline has replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


(1)
Message 160 of 477 (549566)
03-08-2010 7:56 PM


Oh, and as an aside, I believe the world has seen enough failed "prophecies" to at least seriously question omniscience and a totally god-inspired bible. But we're not exactly debating scripture here, so back to the topic...
Such as?
But of course my opinion on prayer shouldn't surprise you, Dr. Sing, especially in light of my views of predestinatory thought. Setting aside the "fostering a relationship" aspect to prayer - everything's been set down in the script long ago: what difference does it make whether we pray or not? Praying for god to "change her mind" is a bit of a pipe dream, no? God is perfect, thus what will be due to god's will, will be. According to predestination, any "mind-changing" re: god will have been written before creation, so how, exactly, can anything change?
For example, your friend is diagnosed ("god" forbid ) with cancer - a predestined occurrence, of course. It may as well be written in stone that your friend will come through chemo, radiation and gene therapy like a champ, and enjoy the rest of her long life in remission. So did your prayer, all the group prayer, and all the prayer requests in church do anything to change what, in effect, was preordained to happen from time aeternal? A perfect god cannot "hear" (there's that anthropomorphistic gremlin again) prayer and "change her mind" from "Dead From Cancer" to "Healthy Post-Cancer Patient In Remission Against All Odds" no matter how much your prayer group wishes it were so. You see, you would then no longer have your "perfect god".
Same goes for your car. You'll either get one, or not.
Nice. I'm glad you brought this up. I knew mentioning about my car need would open up the discussion to this line of thought.
I perfectly understand your point. And I can see from a logical perspective how predestination "seemingly" interferes with the concept of an active, responsive God. However, a close inspection of the Word of God eliminates the amibguity. Let me give you an example of what I'm about to say even before I say it.
Joshua 10
1Now it came about when Adoni-zedek king of Jerusalem heard that Joshua had captured Ai, and had utterly destroyed it (just (A)as he had done to Jericho and its king, so he had done to Ai and its king), and that the inhabitants of Gibeon had (B)made peace with Israel and were within their land,
2that he (C)feared greatly, because Gibeon was a great city, like one of the royal cities, and because it was greater than Ai, and all its men were mighty.
3Therefore Adoni-zedek king of Jerusalem sent word (D)to Hoham king of Hebron and to Piram king of Jarmuth and to Japhia king of Lachish and to Debir king of Eglon, saying,
4"Come up to me and help me, and let us attack Gibeon, for it has (E)made peace with Joshua and with the sons of Israel."
5So the five kings of (F)the Amorites, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon, gathered together and went up, they with all their armies, and camped by Gibeon and fought against it.
6Then the men of Gibeon sent word to Joshua to the camp at Gilgal, saying, "Do not abandon your servants; come up to us quickly and save us and help us, for all the kings of the Amorites that live in the hill country have assembled against us."
7So Joshua went up from Gilgal, he and (G)all the people of war with him and all the valiant warriors.
8The LORD said to Joshua, "(H)Do not fear them, for I have given them into your hands; not one of them shall stand before you."
9So Joshua came upon them suddenly by marching all night from Gilgal.
10(I)And the LORD confounded them before Israel, and He slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and pursued them by the way of the ascent of Beth-horon and struck them as far as Azekah and Makkedah.
11As they fled from before Israel, while they were at the descent of Beth-horon, (J)the LORD threw large stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died from the hailstones than those whom the sons of Israel killed with the sword.
12Then Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel,
"O (K)sun, stand still at Gibeon,
And O moon in the valley of Aijalon."
13(L)So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped,
Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies
Is it not written in (M)the book of Jashar? And (N)the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.
In God's eyes, there's two ways to driving a nail into a wall. One, just command the nail to drive itself in to the wall. Two, have a man with a hammer do the job for Him. Prayer is the second way. I think God could have stopped the sun anyway by just commanding it to stop. But Joshua prayed and God's answering his prayer therefore becomes a great example of what one man's faith and prayer can do. And how God, Himself works with a man to bring about good. (something that can't happen apart from prayer) It can save an entire nation. My point is not so much Israel's benefit from Joshua's faith even though that certainly is noteworthy, as is Joshua's own personal faith experience that strengthened his "walk with God", so to speak. His relationship with the one he trusted, if you will. There are copious many examples of how one person's prayer changed things dramatically for the good of not only that one believer's faith but also those around him. Moses? How many times did Moses plead God not to destroy the Israelites in His wrath for their apostasy? And how many times did God not accept his petition? Moses humbled himself to the point of being willing to "exchange" his own salvation for the sparing of the Israelites by God. There's only two people in the entire Bible that desired God's glory even more than their salvation. Moses and Paul. Phenomenal. But our focus really shouldn't be on what material good comes off of prayer as much as what spiritual lessons prayer teaches. Paul and Moses were given extraordinary titles partly because of their prayerlife.
I think you're applying more meaning to predestination than it really entails. I already pointed out one mistake, that God's feelings aren't automatically subject to something that He Himself ordained. Another one perhaps is the whole "God's will" concept. Suppose it was God's will for my friend to die from cancer and the church prayed for her to live, and God answers that petition, He is changing His mind, is He not? Now, now, this is where it can get a little difficult. So.....which result was truly His will, her dying or her not dying? Did we somehow stop Him from accomplishing His will? That's a valid question, no? It is my personal opinion, a believer's prayer is the ONLY key to unlocking God's lock of His will. And so, if I fail to pray about something, I'm essentially being a hindrance to His will. Same applies for the opposite case. When I do pray, I'm facilitating His will in my life..........And so, you see this whole knowledge of predestination really does not interfere with my thinking, as a believer. And I do believe that things happen to people that are not His will. For example, in an unbeliever's life, not every event and occurrence is in accordance to God's will. I'm basically trying to eradicate the idea of "no matter what you do, His will is perfect in His eyes, and cannot be changed" from your mind. I think that when we say that "His will is perfect" (in a believer's life, that is) we are humbling ourselves and submitting our will to His knowing that its outcome will be beneficial. Not that His will is predestined, perfect, and immutable and I can't do anything to change it. Do I make sense?
Prayer does really make God work. It dictates/controls the way He reacts to us. Now, are there instances where God says no to prayer? Sure. THATS when I need to think, oh, you know God must know better than I. His will is perfect for me. But its not before I decide to pray that I should think "well, His will is perfect, pre-planned and will happen irrespective of my prayer". Who knows? If I don't pray, it is most probable that His perfect will may NOT happen.
What about changing her mind?
The God of the Bible, Most Holy YHWH responds to prayer. Yes.
Just thought I'd yank your chain with the CRAZY part. You seem pretty "together" to me... Oh, and IPU = Immaterial Pink Unicorn.
Ah yes, and pulled my leg too.
Pink unicorn. Classic. I though FSM was innovative. Heh.
belief will never be the same as knowledge, yes? We'll all either gain this knowledge at "some" point, or ... we won't.
I agree. But there's danger is equating belief with Truth and Truth with knowledge. Not all knowledge is truth but all truth is perfect knowledge. So, knowing the Truth will give knowledge.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : few words added for clarity, spelling and such....
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : for the bazillionth time, spelling errors.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Coragyps, posted 03-08-2010 8:27 PM Pauline has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 161 of 477 (549570)
03-08-2010 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Pauline
03-08-2010 7:56 PM


And how God, Himself works with a man to being about good.
That's what counts as "good" in Calvinland? Hmm.
Someday, on another thread, Doc, explain to me why Joshua needed ths sun over Gibeon, and the moon at Aijalon, when they're ten miles apart.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Pauline, posted 03-08-2010 7:56 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Pauline, posted 03-08-2010 9:29 PM Coragyps has replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 162 of 477 (549581)
03-08-2010 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Coragyps
03-08-2010 8:27 PM


Ah. And where do you get this number from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Coragyps, posted 03-08-2010 8:27 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Coragyps, posted 03-08-2010 11:00 PM Pauline has not replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 163 of 477 (549583)
03-08-2010 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Pauline
03-08-2010 4:46 PM


Re: Mental Gymnastics or Faith?
Hi, Dr. Sing.
Dr. Sing writes:
You see, there's a reason why I don't apply Mosaic law to my life today: fulfillment of it by Christ on Dr.sing's behalf. Which gives me the right not to apply Mosaic Law to my life.
Atonement of sins for you, is different from atonement of sins for Hannah. Hannah did not have the right to not apply Mosaic Law, because things were different then. A different Law was in effect, governing people's lives.
So, things that were written after the Atonement do not apply to people who lived before the Atonement.
Likewise, things that were written after the Fall do not apply to people who lived before the Fall.
"When ink was spilled on paper" does matter.
-----
Dr. Sing writes:
And I'll now present another passage that supports my belief:
I Cor 15: 35
Corinthians!? Really!?
I don't doubt that men were not perfect in AD 50, either!
I only question your conclusion that man was not perfect before the Fall. Scriptures after the Fall cannot be used to support this.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Pauline, posted 03-08-2010 4:46 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Pauline, posted 03-08-2010 9:53 PM Blue Jay has replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 164 of 477 (549586)
03-08-2010 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Blue Jay
03-08-2010 9:43 PM


Re: Mental Gymnastics or Faith?
Okay, we're going to be essentially running around in circles hereafter...(cause' I'm going to say the same thing again: history/time does not impede inspiration and the entire Word (including songs and poems) was inspired)
So why don't we take the reverse appraoch? How about you support your claim and I shut up and listen (which I really prefer to do at this point)
Dr.sing writes:
Please. Just show me only verse in the Bible that claims Adam to be equal to God the Father/Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit in substance. Thats all, one verse.
Bluejay writes:
What? Now I have to prove that a word means the same thing when it is used in two different places?
Fine, if you can't find me a verse (I'm 99.9% sure you can't), atleast answer me this: If Adam was in very way like God, including his perfection, how could he sin? Why did he sin? Do you believe God sins?
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Blue Jay, posted 03-08-2010 9:43 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Blue Jay, posted 03-09-2010 10:22 AM Pauline has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 165 of 477 (549594)
03-08-2010 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Pauline
03-08-2010 9:29 PM


Ah. And where do you get this number from?
I estimated it from Atlas of the Bible, by L. H. Grollenberg, Nelson (1956). I could easily be off by a mile or two.
What phase was the moon that day? Big enough to be visible in daylight?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Pauline, posted 03-08-2010 9:29 PM Pauline has not replied

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