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Author Topic:   Is Jesus God?
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 136 of 492 (549432)
03-07-2010 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Dawn Bertot
03-07-2010 9:31 AM


Quick response
Ema,
Take your time. Hell, most of my responses are banged it within 5-10 minutes. Why? Bc I just do not have the minutes to sit down and take my time with work, four kids, wife and life in general. Days after I post, if I have time I'll reread my previous posts and wince at how at times I seem to be all over the place, simple spelling errors, grammatical goofs and uneven.
I would rather wait on a response from you that you could take your time on, with everything in order...then for you to rush and make a mistake or difficult to follow.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-07-2010 9:31 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 137 of 492 (549433)
03-07-2010 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Dawn Bertot
03-07-2010 9:31 AM


Use Messaging
EMA and hERICtic,
This is a debate board and not a chat page. No one expects immediate answers. Everyone has a life outside the board and people are in different time zones, etc.
If you feel the need to explain your absence or lack of response, please use the new personal messaging system.
This will keep off topic clutter off the board.
Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.
Thank you Purple

Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-07-2010 9:31 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 138 of 492 (549435)
03-07-2010 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Peg
03-06-2010 6:31 PM


God and Christ only perfect
of course he was good in every respect, he was perfect Hebrews 9:14. And i provided you the scriptural reason for his goodness
John 5:19 "Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner."
Hebrews 1:3 "He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being"
Lets be honest here, Jesus 'reflected' the glory of God including Gods goodness. But Jesus was not the source of that goodness... he simply reflected it by imitating his father. He saw the fathers goodness and he imitated it.
The obvious and clear problem to this explanation is clear. Jesus made an emphatic statement that was eith true or false. Only God is good. this can only mean sinless and perfect as you have ascribed to Christ
The title scenario nothwithstanding, a second principle is taught by jesus here. If others are good as God is good the statement makes no sense.
secondly we have confirmation by the Apostle that there are none righteous (good)no not one.
Now watch this Peg,if only God is good that would rule out anyone else, even angels, other wise the phrases is nonsense and contradictory. if however, Christ is sinless and perfect he can be none other than God, becuse we know angels are not good like god is good. We have no statements to the effect that angels are sinless
Jesus cannot JUST IMULATE THE FATHERS GLORY and be perfect and sinless. Holiness ans Perfection come from sinlesness and perfection.
Here is another point that we have not discussed yet. Did you ever notice that the scriptures NEVER represents Christ as worshipping God. its never said that he worshipped or wordhips God, only that he and the father are one, he can do nothing without the father, etc, NEVER WORSHIP
Angels worship, men worship God, Christ did not worship God
you didnt use many scriptures to prove your point on this topic. You didnt explain why Jesus objected to being called good in the instance of the young ruler who addressed him as such.
His statement was not an objection otherwise he could have simply said I am not God. He is putting it in the form of a question because he knows the person does not understand what he means by the word Good.
He is actually saying, do you realize what you are calling me when you call me good, you are calling me God
Yet the scriptures list many other people who are called good. So other created beings are called good by God. show me the scriptures that show that Satan sinned before he mislead Adam and Eve.
here it is in Gen chapter three. if his sin was not before Adam and Eve, what was he doing tooling around the earth, lying to the first humans. If he had not already sinned and been cast out, that means, his sin of pride and overthrow were after this sin of temptation of Adam and Eve, which would mean God forgivess some of thier sins, if before his expulsion, correct?
This is a clear indication he had already commited the sin of Pride and overthrown and expelled
Ok, so show me scriptures which state that God forgives sinning Angels and how they sin. There is plenty of discussion in the bible as to how humans sin...also how Satan and his demons sin. Show me from scirpture where God has forgiven sinning angels.
again a brick does not need to fall on one to know that satans sin of pride and overthrow did not happen over night. Are you prepared to suggest that he was faithful one evening and changed his mind the next.
Secondly, Jesus said only God is good. No others are, which means that even angels are not completely good. Since not all angels commited a crime that went to far, this passage reinforces the belief and idea that angels are not perfect. If they are not perfect, as is God, but not all fell, there is OF COURSE a principle of forgiveness on thier behalf. it could not be otherwise
I am prepared to listen to an explanation as to why my reasoning is not valid
So, we who are born into sin, without a choice, get thrown into the lake of fire, but Adam and Eve who were created perfect and without sin, became willful sinners were spared such a punishment. Hmmmm makes a lot of sense lol. Are they in heaven then? Were they rewarded for their bad behavior? Please show me scriptural evidence for your assertion.
We are not born into sin and what assertion are you refering to here?
2Peter 2:4 "Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into TartaErus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment"
Jude 6 "And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day"
1 Peter 3:19 "In this [state] also he (Jesus) went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noahs days"
Luke 8:30-31 "Jesus asked him: What is your name? He said: Legion, because many demons had entered into him. 31 And they kept entreating him not to order them to go away into the abyss"
Revelation 20:1 "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore
Matthew 25:41 Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels"
Revelation 20:10 "And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur...14 And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire"
I think we can be pretty confident that the scriptural evidence is that the sinning angels including Satan have been judged, tried and convicted without mercy and forgivness. They are seen to be in a spiritual prison since the days of Noah when they 'forsook their proper dwelling place', and soon will be thrown into the abyss... a place to which they fear. They will also experience the '2nd death' which is complete and utter destruction in the symbolic lake of fire.
All scriptual as you can see.
these passages only state that Satan and his followers were expelled and punished they do not demonstrate or indicate that before this point Satan who was faithful to God and served God, suddenly without any reason changed his mind and rebelled against God. that would be completely silly.
Again since only God is good and all angels did not fall, it IS MORE REASON TO ASSUME, that all angels which ARE NOT perfect, did not reach Satans degree of sin. Gods longsuffering and forgiveness is repleat in the scriptures, why would it be different in Heaven with freewill creatures?
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Peg, posted 03-06-2010 6:31 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Peg, posted 03-07-2010 6:50 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 139 of 492 (549451)
03-07-2010 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Dawn Bertot
03-07-2010 12:48 PM


Re: God and Christ only perfect
EMA writes:
Here is another point that we have not discussed yet. Did you ever notice that the scriptures NEVER represents Christ as worshipping God. its never said that he worshipped or wordhips God, only that he and the father are one, he can do nothing without the father, etc, NEVER WORSHIP
John 4:21 Jesus said to her: Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will YOU people worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; WE worship what we know.
Hebrews 5:7 In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.
John 20:17 ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’
1Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus UNDER COMMAND OF GOD our Savior and of Christ Jesus, our hope.
in all these verses, Jesus is seen to be in an inferior position to God. In the first he includes himself as those who worship 'what WE know'. In the 2nd he is said to have supplicated God. In the 3rd he confirms that God is his God. And in the 4th Paul says that Christ is under the command of God.
None of them show him to be equal to God or to BE God.
EMA writes:
We are not born into sin and what assertion are you refering to here?
Its no assertion....It what God tells us.
Ps 51:5 With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me.
1 Cor 15:22For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive
Romans 5:12 "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned"
EMA writes:
these passages only state that Satan and his followers were expelled and punished they do not demonstrate or indicate that before this point Satan who was faithful to God and served God
here is a prophet statement found at Ezekiel that applies to Satan.
Ezekiel 28:12 writes:
You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o‧lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready.
14You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about.
15You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.
Satan was just as perfect as every other angel that God had made. Satan was one of the highest stationed angels and he was faultless from the day of his creation UNTIL he became unrighteous.
EMA writes:
Again since only God is good and all angels did not fall, it IS MORE REASON TO ASSUME, that all angels which ARE NOT perfect
show me scriptural evidence that all the angels are NOT perfect. I have asked for scriptural evidence of your assertions and you've not provided any at all. The ezeikel verse i just posted shows that Satan was Perfect and faultless before he became unrighteous. So please show me scriptural proof to the contrary about all other angels.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-07-2010 12:48 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by hERICtic, posted 03-07-2010 7:18 PM Peg has replied
 Message 142 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-08-2010 1:19 AM Peg has replied
 Message 145 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-08-2010 9:22 AM Peg has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 140 of 492 (549453)
03-07-2010 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Peg
03-07-2010 6:50 PM


Re: God and Christ only perfect
Peg, I agree with nearly everything you are saying, but I wish to address the fact that Ezekial is not refering to Satan-but the King of Tyre. The problem is that I'm unsure if I should get into it, since most likely it would be off topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Peg, posted 03-07-2010 6:50 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Peg, posted 03-07-2010 7:51 PM hERICtic has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 141 of 492 (549454)
03-07-2010 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by hERICtic
03-07-2010 7:18 PM


Re: God and Christ only perfect
hERICtic writes:
Peg, I agree with nearly everything you are saying, but I wish to address the fact that Ezekial is not refering to Satan-but the King of Tyre.
was the king of Tyre in the garden of Eden?
and would God descibe a wicked earthly king as someone who was faultless...especially considering the king of Tyre was soon to be punished by God and his kingdom destroyed?
This passage of scripture is 'prophetic'. Yes it is initially refering to the king of Tyre and the destruction of his kingdom, however it also prophetically refers to Satan....the Cherub. The king of tyre was never one of Gods cherubs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by hERICtic, posted 03-07-2010 7:18 PM hERICtic has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 142 of 492 (549463)
03-08-2010 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Peg
03-07-2010 6:50 PM


Re: God and Christ only perfect
This passage of scripture is 'prophetic'. Yes it is initially refering to the king of Tyre and the destruction of his kingdom, however it also prophetically refers to Satan....the Cherub. The king of tyre was never one of Gods cherubs.
yes with one modification, it refers to a statement made to satan long before Tyre, but God applies it to the king because he fit the bill
Ezekiel 28:12 writes:
You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 In Eden, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrysoElite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready.
14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about.
15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.
Satan was just as perfect as every other angel that God had made. Satan was one of the highest stationed angels and he was faultless from the day of his creation UNTIL he became unrighteous.
Sure satan was perfect, just like everyother creature God created until they sinned, even man
It almost ironic that you have nearly demonstrated my point about every other creature besides God and Christ being sinless, by quoting and providing this verse. it demonstrates once again that only God (Christ) can be completely good forever and always, as the scripture says, "only God is Good"
Again since only God is good and all angels did not fall, it IS MORE REASONABLE TO ASSUME, that all angels which ARE NOT perfect, HAVE SIN, because none are good, no not one and ONLY GOD IS GOOD
show me scriptural evidence that all the angels are NOT perfect. I have asked for scriptural evidence of your assertions and you've not provided any at all. The ezeikel verse i just posted shows that Satan was Perfect and faultless before he became unrighteous. So please show me scriptural proof to the contrary about all other angels.
I have and you just keep ignoring it. as I predicted you would not attempt to touch the force of the argument I have made several times now. All you keep doing is providing verses where it is said Jesus was this or that to God.
I have explained that a single verse designating a CHARACTERISTIC of God (God is Only completely good one, sinless, perfect) trumps other verses where it appears he is needy to God. they cant contradict eachother, so one has to have presedence.
Now you have provided me with a verse that says angels sin, thank you. But if your implication is that the others dont, your still confronted with the passage that ONLY ALLOWS GOD TO BE PERFECTLY good and sinless, which means that they LOGICALLY CANNOT BE THESE THINGS TO THE ABSOLUTE, like God is
if only one verse is all it takes to demonstrate that angels, all angels are not perfect, then its the only verse I need, correct?
Lastly on the passage in Ezekiel you have damaged your positon by not quoting all it has to say. What you have left out God provides about Satans character, his overall character and how the events transpired. Lets read the entire passage together
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Look at verse 17 then eighteen. You dont corrupt your wisdom over night. Then he says "the multitude of thine iniquities" Im going to bet this went on for a long long time, due to gods mercy
this is a passage about a single angel, its passage about the contiuance of his problems.
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Peg, posted 03-07-2010 6:50 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 4:00 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 143 of 492 (549464)
03-08-2010 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Dawn Bertot
03-08-2010 1:19 AM


Re: God and Christ only perfect
EMA writes:
Again since only God is good and all angels did not fall, it IS MORE REASONABLE TO ASSUME, that all angels which ARE NOT perfect, HAVE SIN, because none are good, no not one and ONLY GOD IS GOOD
you keep saying this, but you have yet to show a scripture that shows that all angels sin and recieve forgiveness.
As the point you are making is not biblical, I do not accept it as truth. Gods word is truth and if what you were saying is true, then the evidence should be there. As it is not, i can only assume it is a man-made doctrine like many other man made doctrines that have no basis in scripture.
EMA writes:
I have explained that a single verse designating a CHARACTERISTIC of God (God is Only completely good one, sinless, perfect) trumps other verses where it appears he is needy to God. they cant contradict eachother, so one has to have presedence.
the problem here is that you have one idea in mind and any scripture that contradicts it is disregarded....or 'trumped' as you put it.
God does not contradict himself so nor should his word. Its time for you to marry up these verses so they do not contradict one another. You need to find a new explanation....one that does not contradict Jesus own words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-08-2010 1:19 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by hERICtic, posted 03-08-2010 5:21 AM Peg has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 144 of 492 (549469)
03-08-2010 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Peg
03-08-2010 4:00 AM


Re: God and Christ only perfect
hERICtic writes:
Peg, I agree with nearly everything you are saying, but I wish to address the fact that Ezekial is not refering to Satan-but the King of Tyre.
Peg writes:
was the king of Tyre in the garden of Eden?
and would God descibe a wicked earthly king as someone who was faultless...especially considering the king of Tyre was soon to be punished by God and his kingdom destroyed?
This passage of scripture is 'prophetic'. Yes it is initially refering to the king of Tyre and the destruction of his kingdom, however it also prophetically refers to Satan....the Cherub. The king of tyre was never one of Gods cherubs.
Peg, there isnt a single instance in all of scripture for a "dual meaning". None. This was invented to solve certain theological problems. In other words, the Bible can mean anything one wants by just stating there is a hidden meaning.
That being said, its poetry. Three points:
1) It clearly states its about the King of Tyre.
Ezekiel 28:1,2
The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, {2} "Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because your heart is lifted up, And you say, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,' Yet you are a man, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god
2) Yes, The King WAS in Eden.
The chapter before:
Ezekiel 27:22,23
"The merchants of Sheba and Raamah were your merchants. They traded for your wares the choicest spices, all kinds of precious stones, and gold. {23} "Haran, Canneh, Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Assyria, and Chilmad were your merchants.
2 Kings 19:11,12
'Look! You have heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands by utterly destroying them; and shall you be delivered? {12} 'Have the gods of the nations delivered those whom my fathers have destroyed, Gozan and Haran and Rezeph, and the people of Eden who were in Telassar?
Eden was a trading route.
3) A cherub is NOT an angel. Nowhere in scripture is it even stated.
Here is an example of an angel and a cherub:
Ezekiel 10:1 And I looked, and there in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubim, there appeared something like a sapphire stone, having the appearance of the likeness of a throne. 2 Then He spoke to the man clothed with linen, and said, "Go in among the wheels, under the cherub, fill your hands with coals of fire from among the cherubim, and scatter them over the city." And he went in as I watched. 3 Now the cherubim were standing on the south side of the temple when the man went in, and the cloud filled the inner court. 4 Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and paused over the threshold of the temple; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD'S glory. 5 And the sound of the wings of the cherubim was heard even in the outer court, like the voice of Almighty God when He speaks. 6 Then it happened, when He commanded the man clothed in linen, saying, "Take fire from among the wheels, from among the cherubim," that he went in and stood beside the wheels. 7 And the cherub stretched out his hand from among the cherubim to the fire that was among the cherubim, and took some of it and put it into the hands of the man clothed with linen, who took it and went out. 8 The cherubim appeared to have the form of a man's hand under their wings. 9 And when I looked, there were four wheels by the cherubim, one wheel by one cherub and another wheel by each other cherub; the wheels appeared to have the color of a beryl stone.
Chebubs are winged creatures, with vastly different descriptions.
The King of Tyre was the successor of Nimrod, who was symblolized by wings.
Here is an example in scripture of a ruler, the King of Assyria with "wings":
Isaiah 8:7 Behold, therefore the Lord also brings on them the channels of the River, mighty and many: the king of Assyria and all his glory. And he shall come up over all its channels, and go over all its banks. 8 And he shall pass through Judah. He shall overflow and go over. He shall reach to the neck; and his wings will be stretching out, filling the breadth of your land, O Immanuel.
Ezekial 28 is poetry about the ego and the fall of the King of Tyre.
No mention of Satan. It does not have a dual meaning towards Satan. It exaggerated poetry to convey how great the King WAS.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 4:00 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 5:51 PM hERICtic has replied
 Message 153 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 8:33 PM hERICtic has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 145 of 492 (549488)
03-08-2010 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Peg
03-07-2010 6:50 PM


Re: God and Christ only perfect
John 4:21 Jesus said to her: Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will YOU people worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; WE worship what we know.
Hebrews 5:7 In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.
John 20:17 ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’
1Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus UNDER COMMAND OF GOD our Savior and of Christ Jesus, our hope.
in all these verses, Jesus is seen to be in an inferior position to God. In the first he includes himself as those who worship 'what WE know'. In the 2nd he is said to have supplicated God. In the 3rd he confirms that God is his God. And in the 4th Paul says that Christ is under the command of God.
None of them show him to be equal to God or to BE God.
Ill keep beating this point home and I will accept your unwillingness to deal with it as an aquiesence on this issue.
When we have a scripture or scriptures that make a character quality of Jesus superior to another those other passages have to BE UNDERSTOOD IN A CONTEXT THAT MAKES SENSE to those superior passages
Here it is in illustration one more time for those that are paying attention. if we have two expressions, Son of God and Son of man and one of those passages demonstrates that jesus' birth was Unique (only begotten), then it is easy to see his Son of God status is superior to his existence as a human, although he was completely human as well.
Jesus worshipped God from a Servant standpoint because he EMPTIED himself of his EQUALITY with God
jesus did many things in accordance with the Law to FULFILL ALL RIGHTTOUSNESS. His baptism was an example of this action. While he had no sin and that was the reson for Johns baptism, he did it as an example of obedience.
At other times he demonstrated his deity by making this statement, "the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath" While he observed the sabbath as a matter of respect to God, he is saying he is the one that instituted the sabbath in the first place
Your quotes above should be understood in this connection
unknown author
Most importantly, Jesus taught that he is the Lord of the Sabbath. Look at verse 28. So the Son of Man is Lord, even of the Sabbath. What does it mean that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath? It means that Jesus made the Sabbath. It means that Jesus is the object of our worship. It means that Jesus gives us true rest. Let’s think about them one by one. First, It is Jesus who made the Sabbath. In Genesis 2, after creating all things for six days, God added one more day, called the Sabbath. Jesus is the very God who set the seventh day apart. That’s why he says, The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man. This is a messianic title rooted in Daniel 7:13-14, which say, In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. The Son of Man whom Daniel saw is God. Jesus says that he is the Son of Man. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. He made the Sabbath for us. Author unknown
Peg writes:
you keep saying this, but you have yet to show a scripture that shows that all angels sin and recieve forgiveness.
As the point you are making is not biblical, I do not accept it as truth. Gods word is truth and if what you were saying is true, then the evidence should be there. As it is not, i can only assume it is a man-made doctrine like many other man made doctrines that have no basis in scripture.
I understand Peg it is not a easy thing to grasp if you have always be taught a certain thing in this connection. It is absolutely true that ONLY GOD IS GOOD, that doesnt leave anybody else.
Fortunately my position is seated in the best possible exclamation of scripture, that only God is good and that there are none that are righteouss, no not ONE. These two scriptures drive home a point that is inexcapable
God does not contradict himself so nor should his word. Its time for you to marry up these verses so they do not contradict one another. You need to find a new explanation....one that does not contradict Jesus own words.
Seeing that you have not addressed the argument with a single reason to the contrary, it follows that mine is not a contradiction.
he is Lord of the sabbath, because he institued the sabbath
We dont have to agree on this point, to be in fellowship, ITHINK. However, if a brother of sister reading this sees why i am in error on this concept of fellowship, I would encourage them to step forward and express thier opinion about fellowship in this matter. i wish Jaywill were still to get his opinion
If it is ok with you I would like now to discuss the selected group of people that guide your church, that you believe have direct inspiration from God. I hope I did not misrepresent that issue
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Peg, posted 03-07-2010 6:50 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 6:38 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 146 of 492 (549497)
03-08-2010 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by hERICtic
03-06-2010 7:45 PM


Re: scriptures have priorities
EMA wrote:
You seem to be under the mistaken conclusion that this is the only passage in scripture that equates God with Christ. If the verse says He or God, it is corroborated by Phil 2. Oh yeah thats right your still using that translation that is unrelieable and untrustworth,, changing and adding words to change whole ideas.
eric wrote:
Wow. You just completely ignored the entire context. The way it is written (as per your translators) SCREAMS Jesus is god. Using your translation, its obvious Jesus is god, why wasnt it shown BEFORE the fourth century?
Obvious answer: "God" is not written there. "He" is.
If "he" refers back to Jesus, it changes the meaning completely.
Sorry for the lateness on your responses
Well I think you missed the point I was making. were this the only passage you may have a point, it is not and it does not matter whether you translate it He or God, both are correct, thats the point
happily also we have the early Chruch father to refute the point that This was a fourth century invention. From the earliest of times they viewed Jesus as God and worshipped him as God.
JESUS CHRIST'S DIVINITY: Invented by Constantine?
Evidence for the Divinity of Jesus Christ
in the Early Church Fathers
complied by Marcellino D’Ambrosio, Ph.D.
The DaVinci Code repeats the old claim, by the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Others, that no one believed in the Divinity of Jesus Christ in the early Church, but that this idea was invented and promulgated by the emperor Constantine who gained control of the Roman Empire in 312 AD. This historical claim in absolute nonsense. The following texts from Christian writers who lived between New Testament times and the reign of Constantine make abundantly clear that belief in Christ's divinity and equality with God the Father is an indisputable part of the Christian tradition from the beginning. These quotes demonstrating belief in Jesus' divine as well as human nature are by no means exhaustive — they are just a very limited selection. Most or all of the direct quotes below come from the collection edited by Cyril Richardson entitled Early Christian Fathers (NY: Macmillan, 1970), abbreviated here as ECF.
I. Selected Ante-Nicene Patristic witnesses to Christ's Divinity
A. Ignatius of Antioch, on the Divinity of Christ, calls Jesus God 16x in 7 letters (ca. 110 AD)
1. Jesus Christ our God Eph inscr, Eph 15:3, Eph 18:2, Tral 7, Ro inscr 2x, Ro 3:3, Smyr 10:1.
2. He speaks of Christ’s blood as God's blood Eph 1:1
3. He calls Jesus God incarnate Eph 7:2
4. In Jesus God was revealing himself as a man Eph 19:3
B. Epistle to Diognetus (ca. 125 AD) speaking of God the Father, he says:
1. Diognetus 7:2 "he sent the Designer and Maker of the universe himself, by whom he created the heavens and confined the sea within its own bounds" (ca. 125 AD)
2. Diognetus 7:4 He sent him as God; he sent him as man to men."
C. Melito of Sardis on Christ's Divnity (d. ca. 190) On the Pasch (Peri Pascha).
1. Translation in Lucien Deiss, ed., Springtime of the Liturgy (Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 1979), 97-110.
2. Peri Pascha was only discovered in 1940 and published in 1960.
3. he says Christ "rises from the dead as God, being by nature both God and man" (p. 100 in Deiss, physei Theos n kai anthropos).
4. he also has an anti-Gnostic insistence on Christ's true humanity.
D. Justin Martyr on the Divinity of Christ (c. 155 AD)
1. says that Christians adore and worship the Son as well as the Father. 1st Apology 6.
2. says Christ, the Word incarnate, is divine 1 Apol 10 & 63
E. Irenaeus on Christ's Divinity (ca. 185) in his work Adversus Haereses (Against Heresies)
1. Of Jesus he says "He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men; --all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him." AH III.19.2 (Ante Nicene Fathers 1: 449).
2. "He, therefore who was known, was not a different being from Him who declared, 'No man knoweth the Father,' but one and the same, the Father making all things subject to Him; while He received testimony from all that He was very [true] man, and that He was very [true] God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons, from the enemy, and last of all, from death itself." AH, IV, 6,7 (ANF, 469).
F. Tertullian on the Divinity of Christ (ca. 200)
1. the first use of the Latin word trinitas with reference to God is in Adversus Praxean and De pudicitia. The first to use the term persona in a Trinitarian & christological context asserting in Adv. Praxean 12 that the Logos is distinct from the Father as person and that the HS is the "third person" in the Trinity."
2. Adv. Praxean 27 states that there are two natures, one human and one divine, which are joined in the one person Jesus Christ.
3. In his Apology 21, speaking of the Word, he says, we have been taught that he proceeds forth from God, and in that procession He is generated; so that He is the Son of God, and is called God from unity of substance with God. . . . Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled. . . . That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is make a second in manner of existence--in position, not in nature. . . .in His birth God and man united.
4. In On the Flesh of Christ 5, he asks, Was not God really crucified?
G. Clement of Alexandria on Christ's Divinity (ca. 210 AD)
1. Exhortation to the Heathen, 1: This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) ad of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man--that Author of all blessings to us. . . . This is the New Song, the manifestation of the Word that was in the beginning, and before the beginning.
II. A few selected Trinitarian Texts from Ante-Nicene Fathers
A. Didache (ca. 125 AD) "then baptize in running water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Early Christian Fathers, p. 7)
B. Ignatius of Antioch (ca. 115 AD) exhorts the Christians at Magnesia to stand firm "in faith and love, in Son, Father, and Spirit." (Mag 13)
C. Pope Dionysius to Dionysius of Alexandria, 262 AD. Uses the term Trinity and describes the unity of the three persons to prove that they are not three gods. Neunier-Dupuis, The Christian Faith, #301-303.
D. Origen (ca 230 AD), On First Principles 1.6.2 For in the Trinity alone, which is the author of all things, does goodness exist in virtue of essential being; while others possess it as an accidental and perishable quality, and only then enjoy blessedness, when they participate in holiness and wisdom, and in divinity itself.
Whats the conclusion, they must have been reading the same scriptures we are today. your contention that it is an invention of the fourth century is unfounded
I did not agree with you. I simply pointed out that you base everything upon "translations". You dismiss anything which does not back up your point. You cannot provide ANY evidence "true god" refers back to Jesus. Nothing. Yet using other verses, I have shown "true god' each time refers back to god.
As you can see i do not base everything on translations, on the contrary, translations are based on the original, the TOTALITY of scripture and a SOUND HISTORY OF WHAT THE CHURCH BELIEVED
No it does not. It states NOT equal. So when Paul states four times Jesus is basically just in the image of god...these verses do not count bc you hinge upon one verse which states "form". Which has the same meaning. So we ignore the other four?
Then I can only believe you have some ofrm of dyslexia. He was in form, God as a human, as he was in form a SERVANT, as a human. God is not USUALLY a servant, but he took on the form of one.
He did not think being on an EQUALITY a thing to be GRASPED, Eric, not grasped at, as your translation suggest. The early church supports this translation oand understanding
"I have NOT COME TO BE SERVED, but to serve"
And while yes, this article is written by a Catholic, he is not quoting Catholics, but the earliest of Christians
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by hERICtic, posted 03-06-2010 7:45 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by hERICtic, posted 03-08-2010 7:16 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 147 of 492 (549550)
03-08-2010 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by hERICtic
03-08-2010 5:21 AM


Re: God and Christ only perfect
hERICtic writes:
No mention of Satan. It does not have a dual meaning towards Satan. It exaggerated poetry to convey how great the King WAS.
if you want to believe that God called one of his enemies a cherub by his throne, then you can believe that.
And if you dont believe the bible uses prophetic and symbolic structures, including double fulfillments... then read revelation and tell me its all literal with no symbolic or prophetic meanings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by hERICtic, posted 03-08-2010 5:21 AM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by hERICtic, posted 03-08-2010 6:58 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 148 of 492 (549554)
03-08-2010 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Dawn Bertot
03-08-2010 9:22 AM


Re: God and Christ only perfect
EMA writes:
I understand Peg it is not a easy thing to grasp if you have always be taught a certain thing in this connection. It is absolutely true that ONLY GOD IS GOOD, that doesnt leave anybody else.
Fortunately my position is seated in the best possible exclamation of scripture, that only God is good and that there are none that are righteouss, no not ONE. These two scriptures drive home a point that is inexcapable
I've been taught from the bible and therefore if you want to teach me something, you have to show me from the bible. If it doesnt contradict any other scriptures and if the meaning of the original words are in harmony with it, then i'll accept it. But if you cannot show from the bible, I will not accept it as a true doctrine of the bible, and why should i?
You are using this one scripture where Jesus rebuked the man for giving him the title of Good, and you are claiming that this means Jesus is God. If Jesus was God, why rebuke the man and say 'none is Good except God'? This would make his comment a lie or at very least, deliberately misleading.
its the complete opposite of what you are claiming but you cant see that because you are trying to make the verse fit in with your man made doctrine.
What you should do is accept the word of God...where ever it may lead.
EMA writes:
Seeing that you have not addressed the argument with a single reason to the contrary, it follows that mine is not a contradiction.
I've aleady posted many scriptures that show how it contradicts, but here are some more: Jesus himself confirms that he came to do Gods will, not his own. He is also seen to pray to God...something one does in faith. How could Jesus have faith if he is God? God does not need to have faith for faith is what we do when relying on someone else, as God is the one who makes all things happen, then he does not need to rely on anyone else.
Also why would Jesus be called a high Priest? A priest is a mediary between God and man...if Jesus was God and was dealing directly with man, then there is no need for a mediary.
and finally, why would he identify himself as the Messiah, which means 'annointed one'? To be annointed one must be chosen, no one chose God for it is God who does the choosing. So he cannot be the Messiah and God at the same time.
John 3:38because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me
Luke 6:12In the progress of these days he went out into the mountain to pray, and he continued the whole night in prayer to God
John 11:41Therefore they took the stone away. Now Jesus raised his eyes heavenward and said: Father, I thank you that you have heard me
Hebrews 3:1-2 Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confessJesus. 2He was faithful to the One that made him such
1John 5:5Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?
John 4:25-26 The woman said to him: I know that Mes‧si′ah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one arrives, he will declare all things to us openly. 26Jesus said to her: I who am speaking to you am he.
EMA writes:
he is Lord of the sabbath, because he institued the sabbath
being Lord of the Sabbath does not mean he instituted it. We know that the scriptures say God YHWH instituted the sabbath...Jesus was no where mentioned. If Jesus was God, he would have been mentioned in the OT however nowhere is God described as a triune God such as the gods of Egypt. God was always singular.
EMA writes:
If it is ok with you I would like now to discuss the selected group of people that guide your church, that you believe have direct inspiration from God.
that would be offtopic in this thread but i'm happy to disc with you in pm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-08-2010 9:22 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 149 of 492 (549557)
03-08-2010 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Peg
03-08-2010 5:51 PM


Re: God and Christ only perfect
Peg writes:
if you want to believe that God called one of his enemies a cherub by his throne, then you can believe that.
So basically you ignored my entire post. The fact that it states its about Tyre. You challenged me that the King was NOt in Eden, I gave you the scripture. You called a cherub an angle, while I showed not once in the entire Bible is an angel called a cherub and ALSO showed that its another creature. But of course, this would contradict your belief...so regardless of what scripture actually states........
Peg writes:
And if you dont believe the bible uses prophetic and symbolic structures, including double fulfillments... then read revelation and tell me its all literal with no symbolic or prophetic meanings.
Of course there is allegory, metaphors and symbolism. But not once does that Bible state there are dual meanings with prophecies. Not once does scripture mention dual fulfillments. This was invented to explain away the obvious midrash in the gospels.
Ezekial clearly has metaphors within. But its stated what the poem is about-the King of Tyre. It exaggerates his greatness and ego.
But we are both off topic. Perhaps some other time on a thread dealing with Satan we could discuss this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 5:51 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 7:04 PM hERICtic has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 150 of 492 (549558)
03-08-2010 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by hERICtic
03-08-2010 6:58 PM


Re: God and Christ only perfect
[qs=hERICtic]So basically you ignored my entire post.[/q]s
no i didnt ignore your entire post.
I gave reasons why some of the passage is a reference to satan. I said that there is no way the king of tyre was ever in the garden of Eden, i said that an enemy of God would never be called one of his cherubs... a very high angelic position beside Gods throne.
How can it seriously be applied to a physical king on earth. Its more then just an exagerated poem about an earthly king. Its a classic example of how the inspiried writers can jump backwards and forwards between characters within the same passage. Daniel does it too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by hERICtic, posted 03-08-2010 6:58 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by hERICtic, posted 03-08-2010 7:37 PM Peg has not replied

  
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