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Author Topic:   Wingnuts Praying for Obama's Death
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6037
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 91 of 124 (549296)
03-05-2010 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by dronestar
03-05-2010 3:43 PM


Roosevelt quote
I ahve seen the quote you are referencing. I am not sure if it is an actual quote. I will try to some more research. I am going on vacation for a week so might not get to it before I go.

I have a suspicion it is a paraphrasing of this quote.

It is the duty of all citizens, irrespective of party, to denounce, and, so far as may be, to punish crimes against the public on the part of politicians or officials.

Theodore Roosevelt, speech at Buffalo, New York, "The Duties of American Citizenship" (January 26, 1883)


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6037
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 92 of 124 (549303)
03-05-2010 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by dronestar
03-05-2010 3:43 PM


Roosevelt quote 2
Found it.
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

Full quote with context.

The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.

"Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star", 149
May 7, 1918

I couldn't remember it exactly so took me a bit to find actual quote..


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by dronestar, posted 03-05-2010 3:43 PM dronestar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-05-2010 9:57 PM Theodoric has not yet responded
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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 93 of 124 (549323)
03-05-2010 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by dronestar
03-05-2010 9:15 AM


Re: Yeah, truly sad
I can sure see why you in particular would want to hang out with this guy.

Where did I say I wanted to hang out with him?

Like I said, your hate clouds your judgement. I actually said I didn't have an opinion on him as a man. I could give 2 shits about him on a personal level (which you would have noticed if you didn't feel the need to pick a fight with everyone who doesn't see things EXACTLY as you do).


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersófor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinóconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"On a personal note I think he's the greatest wrestler ever. He's better than Lou Thesz, Gorgeous George -- you name it."-The Hulkster on Nature Boy Ric Flair


This message is a reply to:
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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 94 of 124 (549324)
03-05-2010 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by dronestar
03-05-2010 3:43 PM


Re: Yeah, truly sad
WTF? How mentally-slow, ass-backwards is that?

Is that the best you got? I am mentally slow because I don't see things precisely as you do? Because I don't conflate every fucking subject with how much our government sucks?


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersófor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinóconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"On a personal note I think he's the greatest wrestler ever. He's better than Lou Thesz, Gorgeous George -- you name it."-The Hulkster on Nature Boy Ric Flair


This message is a reply to:
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ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2618 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 95 of 124 (549334)
03-05-2010 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Theodoric
03-05-2010 5:21 PM


Re: Roosevelt quote 2
Man, if you were public official saying that during Shrub's reign it would have gotten you labeled as a surrender monkey, forced to retract or apologize, and then voted out of office and sent back to selling used cars or condoms. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that congress-critters were wearing redwhitenblue ribbons the size of pie plates just so everyone would know that they were playing for the right team.

I always thought that both Bush Sr and Bush Jr were vastly under-qualified for the job. Without the name and money, Sr would likely have ended a supermarket manager, but at least he would have done okay. Bet the employees would have all hated him, though. Jr would have maybe been fit to coach highschool football and teach drivers ed, as long as he laid off the sauce. (At my highschool, you had to be a teacher if you were also going to be a coach. Those who had a little on the ball got to teach math or economics. The other guys taught drivers ed.)

But that's just personal dislike. My real anger is towards what he and his gang did to this country over the eight years of their misrule. This is a guy who is not only a war criminal, but also - whether by ignorance, malice, avarice or ineptitude - utterly wrecked a prosperous economy, exploded the national debt out past Saturn, destroyed America's reputation around the world, and did as much as humanly possible to ruin the environment for generations to come. If that's not the worst president in modern US history, then you try to come up with a record worse than that one. It's also true that he'll never be held accountable for any of this. Damn, it's still treasonous even to suggest that someone investigate the crimes that he and the republithugs committed while he was sitting in the big chair. What's it say about the mentality of a big part of the American public that this war criminal goes free, while all Clinton did was lie about getting his dick sucked by a chubby intern and he got himself impeached and nearly thrown out of office? This country is filled with yahoos and teabaggers who call Obama a Nazi for trying to get people affordable healthcare. No doubt they'd love to see Sarah Palin, possibly the only candidate for national office even less qualified than Jr, get in there in 2012 and do an even better job of wrecking what's left. I spit on all of them.

There. Now that's what a real Bush-hating rant sounds like.


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Theodoric, posted 03-05-2010 5:21 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 1058 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 96 of 124 (549366)
03-06-2010 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Straggler
03-04-2010 6:14 PM


Re: What Do We Mean By Nation X Did Y...?
Sorry for the late reply Straggler,

Say the same sort of thing to most Europeans and they kinda shrug and go "Yeah my fucking government sucks shit. I know". Say this sort of thing to a Yank and they are much more likely to take it as a personal insult or an indication of more general anti-Americanism of some sort.

Yeah this is true. Even I on occasion have found myself being personally insulted when (for example) a Cuban family member who just got to this country starts insulting it's ways. I don't know why, but it bothers me. It's like, I'm from here, so I can insult it, but you're not so fuck off with your opinion and thank every god in the sky that you're in this country instead of Cuba - or where ever else.

It's like the "N" word. If you're black, have at it, use it any way you want (good or bad). But if you're not black, not "one of us," then refrain from using it.

But I have no clue why this is.

This may be because of America's status in the world and thus the prevalence of genuine anti-Americanism of sorts breeding a degree of justifiable paranoia. It may be because you guys are generally more patriotic in ways that seem slightly alien to modern rather cynical Europeans.

For as much as I point out it's faults, I fucking LOVE being American. I personally take great shame in having allowed the Bush family tha many terms in office and thus hurting the image of the US around the world. When I defend America, I do so because I KNOW for fact that it is a much better country than the media represents it as, and, a much better country than the Bush's made it seem to be.

We have plenty of gun happy idiots, racists, bigots, gay-bashers, anti-evolutionist, etc... But that is the minority, and a very, very small minority at that. The media presents it differently because lunacy sells. And that too is what hurts this country very much - coporate media outlets.

But, having served in the military, and, having immigrant parents who were able to come here and have what they would never have had under Castro, I will defend this country against anyone who misrepresents it, or physically taking up arms, if the situation called for it - that includes fighting those within the country who intend to destroy it politically.

My parents and I owe a lot to this country, I guess that's where my "patriotism" comes from.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2010 6:14 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 97 of 124 (549439)
03-07-2010 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by onifre
03-04-2010 6:03 PM


Re: What Do We Mean By Nation X Did Y...?
You would think that people would know what it means, but as you can see in this thread both hooah and Hyro suspect Drone of being anti-America, when that is NOT even close to the truth.

I don't think he's anti-American (kind of a useless term, if you ask me because it's so open to varying interpretations), I just think he's too busy listening to one side of the debate.

He seems like the kind of guy that would reject any rebuttal or refutation if it meant it would positively change his views on Bush.

It's like that with people such as Rrhain. What ever would he do without people to loathe and belittle? Hating others apparently gives his life purpose and meaning.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston
This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 98 of 124 (549440)
03-07-2010 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by dronestar
03-05-2010 10:59 AM


Re: Soapbox
quote:
I think you have lost some objectivity on the subject because of your virulent hatred for Bush & Co.

The reality of the situation is that truth concerning the matter usually lies somewhere in between your position and a diehard Bush fanatic.


Mindless Middle.

Only on a forum like this would objectivity be scorned and ridiculed as if it were a negative trait.

Perhaps the only way someone like yourself would be satisfied is I partake in your scathing hatred. Sounds fascist to me.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by dronestar, posted 03-05-2010 10:59 AM dronestar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Rahvin, posted 03-07-2010 5:27 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1295 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 99 of 124 (549446)
03-07-2010 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Hyroglyphx
03-07-2010 4:04 PM


Re: Soapbox
The reality of the situation is that truth concerning the matter usually lies somewhere in between your position and a diehard Bush fanatic.

Only on a forum like this would objectivity be scorned and ridiculed as if it were a negative trait.

But this is another example of the Mindless Middle, Hyro. You're claiming that "truth" lies somewhere in between the two statements, without actually defining the extremes or providing an analysis of the accuracies and inaccuracies inherent in each.

That's not objectivity. That's intellectual laziness.

Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-07-2010 4:04 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-07-2010 6:37 PM Rahvin has responded

Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


(2)
Message 100 of 124 (549450)
03-07-2010 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Rahvin
03-07-2010 5:27 PM


Re: Soapbox
But this is another example of the Mindless Middle, Hyro. You're claiming that "truth" lies somewhere in between the two statements, without actually defining the extremes or providing an analysis of the accuracies and inaccuracies inherent in each.

That's not objectivity. That's intellectual laziness.

No, you're unfairly grouping me with people who avoid controversy and take a de facto position by sitting on the fence.

If I'm intellectually lazy, does that make you intemperate, emotive, and easily led? Or is that presumptuous? Because for you to assume that I don't automatically take sides with an issue because I'm just intellectually lazy is presumptuous.

I have opinions on what I feel I have a fair, impartial, and balanced understanding of rather than doing what most people do which is side with their party lines. So if choosing to be an owl instead of a sheep is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : corrected typo


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston
This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Rahvin, posted 03-07-2010 5:27 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Rahvin, posted 03-08-2010 11:51 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 101 of 124 (549470)
03-08-2010 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by onifre
03-06-2010 11:53 AM


Stars and Swipes
My parents and I owe a lot to this country, I guess that's where my "patriotism" comes from.

Fair enough. It's not like we don't have patriotism in Europe too. But nationalism of any sort often doesn't sit well with the colonial past of so many of the major European countries. It gets kinda conflated with nationalistic extremism of one sort or another. So (I think) the patriotism here gets kinda watered down and the whole thing is much more cynical. Americans seem to be much more overt and unembarressed about the whole thing (except in the context of sport where we all go bit mental).

A friend of mine recently moved from London to Washington. He was telling us about the flag holder he has for his desk. We were absolutely pissing ourselves at the idea of such a concept existing here. It would end up being a contest as to who could create the stupidest flag or something.


This message is a reply to:
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dronestar
Member (Idle past 448 days)
Posts: 1379
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 102 of 124 (549484)
03-08-2010 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Theodoric
03-05-2010 5:21 PM


Re: Roosevelt quote 2
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

"Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star", 149
May 7, 1918

Thanks Theodoric. I think that's twice you found a quoted item for me. I owe ya!

I see Hyro and hooah didn't comment about this specific quote about what's truly "anti-American". Big surprise eh?

Edited by dronester, : spelling


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-08-2010 9:42 AM dronestar has not yet responded

dronestar
Member (Idle past 448 days)
Posts: 1379
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 103 of 124 (549485)
03-08-2010 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by ZenMonkey
03-05-2010 9:57 PM


Re: Roosevelt quote 2
Hi ZenMonkey,

Ohhh, trying to one-up-manship me ehhhh?

Seriously, thanks for a reply that shows REAL "pro-Americanism". We could have sorely used a few more million of you during the 2000 and 2004 elections.

d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-05-2010 9:57 PM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 104 of 124 (549490)
03-08-2010 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by dronestar
03-08-2010 9:02 AM


Re: Roosevelt quote 2
I see Hyro and hooah didn't comment about this specific quote about what's truly "anti-American". Big surprise eh?

Fond of character assassination, are we? I didn't even see it until I saw your post.

Much to your dismay, I'm sure, I agree with it.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston
This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by dronestar, posted 03-08-2010 9:02 AM dronestar has not yet responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1295 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 105 of 124 (549499)
03-08-2010 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Hyroglyphx
03-07-2010 6:37 PM


Re: Soapbox
No, you're unfairly grouping me with people who avoid controversy and take a de facto position by sitting on the fence.

I'm not grouping you with anyone, Hyro. I'm talking about you and only you right now, regarding this instance and no other. You said:

quote:
The reality of the situation is that truth concerning the matter usually lies somewhere in between your position and a diehard Bush fanatic.

This is a perfect example of a Mindless Middle comment. You are explicitly claiming that "the truth lies somewhere in between," but you are not at all providing any reason why this is so. You aren;t analyzing any of the various sides of the argument. You aren't showing which parts of which side are accurate or inaccurate.

You're simply making a completely unsupported judgment that the most accurate position is a compromise of the two perceived sides.

That's what the Mindless Middle is, Hyro. Each and every time anyone says that "both sides are wrong, the truth is in the middle somewhere," without specifically demonstrating where each side is accurate and inaccurate, they are making a Mindless Middle argument.

It's not objectivity.

If I were to speak regarding the age of the Earth in a debate between a 10,000-year-old YEC "model" and the modern geological estimate, and say "the truth is somewhere in the middle," I would be making a Mindless Middle argument. It's Midnless because I'm not actually doing any thinking - I'm just making the unsupported assertion that neither side is wholly accurate, but that the "truth" is somewhere in the "middle." Never mind that, in that particular case, one side is vastly more accurate than the other, to the point that we can say that one is factually wrong in every way, while the other is demosntrably very accurate given current data.

If I'm intellectually lazy, does that make you intemperate, emotive, and easily led? Or is that presumptuous? Because for you to assume that I don't automatically take sides with an issue because I'm just intellectually lazy is presumptuous.

Stop with the tu quoque nonsense and ad hominems. If you don't believe that you're making a Mindless Middle argument, prove it. Show that you did not, in fact, make an unsupported assertion that the most accurate position was a compromise between sides in an argument.

Of course, since I've quoted you doing exactly that, good luck.

I have opinions on what I feel I have a fair, impartial, and balanced understanding of rather than doing what most people do which is side with their party lines.

Opinions, of course, by definition are not objective. You play-act at objectivity, Hyro, but instead you make assertions without supporting evidence or even a basic attempt to analyze the logical consistency of an argument - you just say "the truth is a compromise between both sides."

Again, that's not objectivity. Objectivity is impartial, yes, but it is based on fact, not finding common ground or compromise between opposing views.

So if choosing to be an owl instead of a sheep is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

Your indignation is as irrelevant as your Mindless Middle debate tactics.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-07-2010 6:37 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-08-2010 4:00 PM Rahvin has responded

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