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Author Topic:   Why I am creationist
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 166 of 210 (549412)
03-06-2010 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by IchiBan
03-06-2010 9:12 PM


The old "evolution is a religion" nonsense again
There is no need to be a creationist to see of the flaws in evolutionary beliefs and reject them for what they are, a belief. Ultimately evolution is a religion masquerading as a science discipline
Some definitions which may help:
Science: a method of learning about the world by applying the principles of the scientific method, which includes making empirical observations, proposing hypotheses to explain those observations, and testing those hypotheses in valid and reliable ways; also refers to the organized body of knowledge that results from scientific study.
Religion: Theistic: 1. the belief in a superhuman controlling power, esp. in a personal God or gods entitled to obedience and worship. 2. the expression of this in worship. 3. a particular system of faith and worship.
Religion: Non-Theistic: The word religion has many definitions, all of which can embrace sacred lore and wisdom and knowledge of God or gods, souls and spirits. Religion deals with the spirit in relation to itself, the universe and other life. Essentially, religion is belief in spiritual beings. As it relates to the world, religion is a system of beliefs and practices by means of which a group of people struggles with the ultimate problems of human life.
Isn't it odd that the only folks who claim science is a religion are fundamentalist Christians?
The rest of the world, including a billion or more non-fundamentalist Christians recognize science for what it is--a method for learning about the natural world.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by IchiBan, posted 03-06-2010 9:12 PM IchiBan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Taq, posted 03-09-2010 11:03 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 170 by IchiBan, posted 03-09-2010 8:26 PM Coyote has replied
 Message 176 by IchiBan, posted 03-09-2010 10:12 PM Coyote has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 167 of 210 (549627)
03-09-2010 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Coyote
03-06-2010 11:02 PM


Re: The old "evolution is a religion" nonsense again
Isn't it odd that the only folks who claim science is a religion are fundamentalist Christians?
Even more, what are they really trying to say with that argument? That religion is something trivial that should be ignored? That religion is dangerous? That religious based beliefs are wrong? For the creationist, religious faith is all they have. Supposedly, it is the most important thing in their life. So why are they so willing to trivialize and defame the most important thing in their life?
When creationists use the "evolution is a religion" canard it really is a Kamikaze type argument. They blow up themselves in the process, but they really don't seem to mind as long as the "enemy" is killed in the process. It's as if they see the creationist ship sinking so they want to take as many with them as they can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Coyote, posted 03-06-2010 11:02 PM Coyote has not replied

  
IchiBan
Member (Idle past 4938 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 168 of 210 (549677)
03-09-2010 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by anglagard
03-06-2010 10:34 PM


Re: Some Evidently Still Refuse to Get It
My understanding of science and religion is quite grounded, thank you.
I dont know about the some people you refer to. But there are many well known evolutionists and ex-evolutionists who's observations that evolution is a religion which masquerades as a science discipline parallels my own.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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IchiBan
Member (Idle past 4938 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 169 of 210 (549678)
03-09-2010 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by lyx2no
03-06-2010 10:36 PM


True enough, any of a dozen brands of self-delusional personality will suffice.
Without seeing your post history I'm gong to make a guess thats about as strong as your rebuttals get, or not very.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by lyx2no, posted 03-06-2010 10:36 PM lyx2no has not replied

  
IchiBan
Member (Idle past 4938 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 170 of 210 (549681)
03-09-2010 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Coyote
03-06-2010 11:02 PM


Re: The old "evolution is a religion" nonsense again
Isn't it odd that the only folks who claim science is a religion are fundamentalist Christians?
Why dont you try responding to what I actually said rather than tearing down your strawman. Oh thats right, maybe you cant.
There is no need to be a creationist (or a fundamental Christian) to see of the flaws in evolutionary beliefs and reject them for what they are, a belief. Ultimately evolution is a religion that masquerades as a science discipline .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Coyote, posted 03-06-2010 11:02 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Taq, posted 03-09-2010 8:28 PM IchiBan has not replied
 Message 173 by Coyote, posted 03-09-2010 8:54 PM IchiBan has replied
 Message 174 by bluescat48, posted 03-09-2010 8:58 PM IchiBan has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 171 of 210 (549682)
03-09-2010 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by IchiBan
03-09-2010 8:11 PM


Re: Some Evidently Still Refuse to Get It
My understanding of science and religion is quite grounded, thank you.
I dont know about the some people you refer to. But there are many well known evolutionists and ex-evolutionists who's observations that evolution is a religion which masquerades as a science discipline parallels my own.
Whether or not that is true, I am still interested in where you are going with this. What do you hope to do by calling evolution a religion? Do you consider "religion" to be a term of derision? Do you think that calling something a religion makes it trivial at best, and something evil at worst? What are you hoping to accomplish by calling evolution a religion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by IchiBan, posted 03-09-2010 8:11 PM IchiBan has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 172 of 210 (549683)
03-09-2010 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by IchiBan
03-09-2010 8:26 PM


Re: The old "evolution is a religion" nonsense again
Why dont you try responding to what I actually said rather than tearing down your strawman. Oh thats right, maybe you cant.
Why do we have to address claims backed by zero evidence? Do we have to disprove that the sky is falling just because some nut on the corner is holding a sign that says the sky is falling? When you marshal some evidence to back your claims then we will address those claims.

This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 173 of 210 (549685)
03-09-2010 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by IchiBan
03-09-2010 8:26 PM


Re: The old "evolution is a religion" nonsense again
There is no need to be a creationist (or a fundamental Christian) to see of the flaws in evolutionary beliefs and reject them for what they are, a belief. Ultimately evolution is a religion that masquerades as a science discipline
You make my point; the only folks who claim that science is a religion are fundamentalists.
And I don't need you or any other fundamentalists to tell me what evolution is. I studied it at the graduate level, with an emphasis on fossil man, right up to my Ph.D. exams.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by IchiBan, posted 03-09-2010 8:26 PM IchiBan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by IchiBan, posted 03-09-2010 10:00 PM Coyote has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 174 of 210 (549686)
03-09-2010 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by IchiBan
03-09-2010 8:26 PM


Re: The old "evolution is a religion" nonsense again
There is no need to be a creationist (or a fundamental Christian) to see of the flaws in evolutionary beliefs and reject them for what they are, a belief. Ultimately evolution is a religion that masquerades as a science discipline .
What flaws?
Evolution is based on evidence not on belief. Evidence as fossils, varves, radioactive dating, tree rings etc. By using these ve arious techniques plus the genomes of living organisms with the physical evidence ie bacterial mutations etc. There is no belief in evolution but acceptance of the evidence. Belief is religion, there is no mythology in evolution that there is is in religion and no deities either.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by IchiBan, posted 03-09-2010 8:26 PM IchiBan has not replied

  
IchiBan
Member (Idle past 4938 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 175 of 210 (549690)
03-09-2010 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Coyote
03-09-2010 8:54 PM


You make my point; the only folks who claim that science is a religion are fundamentalists.
Yeh, keep making that claim. You have yet to back it up with anything, and given your pattern that aint never going to happen.
Now I dont know about you and your claimed credentials because those are never backed up with any bonafides either. So in lew of that I will go to just a few quotes of well known & established evolutionists on the issue of evolutionism being an ideology, a world view, and yes a religion.
Darwinian atheist Michael Ruse has even acknowledged that evolution is their religion!
Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religiona full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. . . . Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.
Sir Arthur Keith, a famous British evolutionary anthropologist and anatomist.
"Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable." In fact, it seems that the Theory of Evolution is contrary to established science.
George Wald, prominent Evolutionist (a Harvard University biochemist and Nobel Laureate)
"When it comes to the Origin of Life there are only two possibilities: creation or spontaneous generation. There is no third way. Spontaneous generation was disproved one hundred years ago, but that leads us to only one other conclusion, that of supernatural creation. We cannot accept that on philosophical grounds; therefore, we choose to believe the impossible: that life arose spontaneously by chance!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Coyote, posted 03-09-2010 8:54 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
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IchiBan
Member (Idle past 4938 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 176 of 210 (549691)
03-09-2010 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Coyote
03-06-2010 11:02 PM


Re: The old "evolution is a religion" nonsense again
Isn't it odd that the only folks who claim science is a religion are fundamentalist Christians
Actually what I find odd is that so many evolutionists are on a zealous crusade against any notion of a creator (except the ones made in their own image) .And for this cause they hijack science for their own ideological ends. In fact, you will fit this description quite aptly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Coyote, posted 03-06-2010 11:02 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Coyote, posted 03-09-2010 10:22 PM IchiBan has replied
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 177 of 210 (549692)
03-09-2010 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by IchiBan
03-09-2010 10:00 PM


Proof? You want proof?
You want proof that evolution isn't a religion?
In six years of graduate school, and many classes in those related fields:
--Not once was I asked to take something on faith;
--Not once was it suggested we worship or idolize Darwin, Leakey or any other previous figure in the field;
--Not once was a supernatural explanation offered for something not yet understood;
--Not once was the theory of evolution claimed to be a solution to the ultimate problems of human life; and
--Not once did anyone pass the collection plate.
Pretty much misses out on all the standard definitions of religion, now doesn't it?
My question to you: why do fundamentalists have to lie about science? Are they that afraid of finding out what happened in the real world that they have to lie and distort what science finds, and even worse--what science really is?
Sounds pretty insecure to me.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by IchiBan, posted 03-09-2010 10:00 PM IchiBan has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 178 of 210 (549693)
03-09-2010 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by IchiBan
03-09-2010 10:12 PM


Re: The old "evolution is a religion" nonsense again
Actually what I find odd is that so many evolutionists are on a zealous crusade against any notion of a creator (except the ones made in their own image) .And for this cause they hijack science for their own ideological ends. In fact, you will fit this description quite aptly.
No, your real objection is that I don't kowtow to your particular version of religion.
I don't have to: The Enlightenment happened.
The Dark Ages are over. You can't even send the Inquisition after me any longer, and burning at the stake is so last millennium, so pass. Better get used to it.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by IchiBan, posted 03-09-2010 10:12 PM IchiBan has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 179 of 210 (549694)
03-09-2010 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by IchiBan
03-09-2010 10:00 PM


The imaginary "quotations" from Keith and Wald are simply creationist lies: neither of them said any such thing. The quotation from Ruse is accurate but out of context --- he is arguing against attaching any religious significance to evolution, which he believes to be entirely compatible with Christianity. Oh, and he's a self-described agnostic, not an atheist.
Here's a little tip for you as you wend your way through life. When you see a creationist website claiming that a "prominent Evolutionist" has affirmed a halfwitted creationist dogma, then that website is wrong, because this is not what evolutionists, prominent or otherwise, actually do.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by IchiBan, posted 03-09-2010 10:00 PM IchiBan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by IchiBan, posted 03-10-2010 1:47 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
IchiBan
Member (Idle past 4938 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 180 of 210 (549695)
03-09-2010 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Coyote
03-09-2010 10:22 PM


No, your real objection is that I don't kowtow to your particular version of religion.
What are you psychic now? No just more strawmen, thats all you got there babe.
The Dark Ages are over. You can't even send the Inquisition after me any longer, and burning at the stake
Thats laughable and you are a scientist with a PHD? But dont stop there with your strawmen , lets see just how far you will go with your ever so weak and goofy analogies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Coyote, posted 03-09-2010 10:22 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-09-2010 11:33 PM IchiBan has replied

  
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