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Author Topic:   WooHoo! More idiots running the gub'ment.
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 245 (549735)
03-10-2010 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Huntard
03-10-2010 2:58 AM


Re: Athiestic Values
Huntard writes:
So, you in fact don't know what values atheists hold, yet you seem convinced that these are bad values. I find such reasoning very strange.
So far it appears that Buz is the only one who has cited any significant atheistic value, being that they consider themselves unaccountable to a higher power. Nobody else, including atheists have come up with anything significant. Dr Adequate gives his sole reason as believing it's true. Ladedah! We all believe our stuff is true.
As for the values being bad, I've cited secularistic atheistic minded regimes of the Communist block nations which forbad Bibles into their nations who tortured and who slaughtered scores of millions last century as examples of the fruits of atheism when it becomes prevalent in a culture. Perhaps some of this may be due to the fact they those despots didn't think they would be accountable to a higher power for their bloody ruthlessness.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Huntard, posted 03-10-2010 2:58 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by subbie, posted 03-10-2010 9:40 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 175 by Huntard, posted 03-10-2010 9:52 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 178 by Rahvin, posted 03-10-2010 12:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 180 by hooah212002, posted 03-10-2010 6:58 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 192 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-11-2010 12:09 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 245 (549736)
03-10-2010 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Huntard
03-10-2010 9:31 AM


Re: Athiestic Values
Huntard writes:
That can be used as an excuse for anything Buz. All those "atheists" you accuse of slaughter in say, Soviet Russia? Non-conformists, all of them. (remember, you don't know what values atheists hold, so you can't say they are not).
LOL again, Huntard. The non-conformists in those nations were the ones tortured and slaughtered; more than a few.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Huntard, posted 03-10-2010 9:31 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Huntard, posted 03-10-2010 9:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 245 (549831)
03-10-2010 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by dwise1
03-10-2010 8:45 PM


Re: Athiestic Values
dwise1 writes:
As an example that this analogy works, consider the case of a friend from church, Gary. For many years, he had been a hard-core fundamentalist. Of course he would constantly encounter every-day facts of life that contradicted his beliefs, so he had to practice self-deception and blind himself to the truth. The problem with that is that you have to keep piling on more and more self-deception. Finally, the self-deception just became too overwhelming, so he decided to apply the Matthew 7:20 test to Christianity. OK, some of the fruits were good, but a lot of the fruits of Christianity were bad -- remember now, Jesus set up that test so that even one wicked fruit would condemn the tree to being hacked down and thrown into the fire. So he dumped Christianity and became, as he put it, "an atheist and a thorough humanist." And as such he became not only much happier, but also much more spiritually fulfilled. The only thing he missed was the practice of expressing gratitude to a supreme being (much as an ex-smoker might miss certain situations for lighting up), but that was a very small price to pay for the vast improvement in his quality of life and the quality of his state of mind.
Another thing to look at is why an atheist would ever want to convert to Christianity, especially to your brand. I know that for me the very idea is morally repugnant. In order for me to convert, especially to a sect that embraces "creation science", I would need to embrace something that I know is a pack of lies and deception. I would need to abandon morality and become a willing and willful accomplice to that lying and deceiving.
Why would anyone with even a shred of morality choose to do such a thing?
Hi Wise. I appreciate your manner of expressing your reasoning in a civil manner.
Problems:
1. I'm convinced that the enormity of logical reasons to go with creation science overshadows what mainline sience considers empirical. Both have unknowns and significant questionable aspects.
2. I'm convinced that creationism has way too much significant visible corroborating evidences to simply sweep under the proverbial rug.
3. Most folks whom I'm aware of who have denounced Christianity are oblivious to the very significant corroborating evidence of Christianity and the Biblical record. Why? Simply because they have never seriously gotten into such scriptural evidences such as fulfilled prophecy, corelating historical and archeological evidence. This is partly because most professing Christians are nominal and shallow. The other significant part is the inept pastors and teachers in the churches who themselves are oblivious to the prophecies and anything other than gospel and doctrinal issues.
4. I'm convinced that mainline science relies too much on mathmatical assumptions, uniformatism and the notion that no aspect of the possible existence of higher intelligence in the universe should be on the table for consideration.
5. I'm convinced that there is no sensible model which allows for the enormity of design advancement all the way from the chaotic alleged singularity to all of the complexity observed in the cosmons and on planet earth. This defies all of what is observed in the physical world around us. It is particularly the early stages of origins such as abiogenesis and formation of the cosmos all from chaotic matter that convince me. It takes all manners of abstract processes in order to arrive at science conclusions void of ID.
6. Though I can't verify to any outside of the people involved, God has so wonderfully revealed himself in imperical miraculous ways in so many significant ways that it would be real stupid for me to turn around and denounce him. It would take a sizeable volumn book to cover them all. It's not that I deserve more than anyone else, but that I've learned to go by the book and get close to God, dedicating myself to his precepts. It's not been all rosy. To whom much is given, much is required. When I sin, God reveals himself as a father would to a son whom he loves and chastens. I appreciate that. It's a love/fear/respect thing as it was to my earthly father as a kid. My dad loved me but he saw to it that I towed the mark. Now I appreciate that. It was the same with my boys. They thank me now for making them tow the mark as children. Now they're both very successful and living for God as well. My elder son is big into creation science with significantly more knowledge than I have.
In conclusion I'm too logical and sensible to ignore the evidence for the supernatural and to buy the abstract highly improbable random, non-ID explanation of origins.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by dwise1, posted 03-10-2010 8:45 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Taz, posted 03-10-2010 11:36 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 245 (549835)
03-11-2010 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Taz
03-10-2010 10:25 PM


Re: Athiestic Values
Taz, you're sure caught up into this pro gay campaign. You know, there's a reason gays stayed in the proverbial closet until the 1960s or so. It's because it's not natural and most cultures considered it to be as deviant as adultery, fornication and prostitution. Most cultures considered it to degrade the culture and an embarrasment out of the closet.
I treat gays the same as everyone else, but I'm just telling you the facts. Don't get all bent outa shape when some people regard gays as human cultures have throughout history.
Whether you go with evolution or ID, the sex organs were no more designed for gay sex than your car was designed for an all positive battery or a male pipe fitting was designed to connect to another male fitting.
So far as the concern for the environment, some of us who are just as concerned as the whakos, use better judgement as to where to draw the line. If you want to tow the environmentalist line, sell your car and walk or ride a horse. Don't buy a bike. There's too much stuff involved in the making of it to be environmentally kosher. Wear all cotton, don't heat your house, stay off the asphalt when you walk. It takes a lot of oil, you know and oil doesn't grow on trees. If you really want to tow the environmentalist line, tow it and stop being a preachy hypocrite.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Taz, posted 03-10-2010 10:25 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-11-2010 12:22 AM Buzsaw has not replied
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 Message 195 by Huntard, posted 03-11-2010 3:06 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 198 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-11-2010 5:51 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 199 by Taz, posted 03-12-2010 12:48 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 203 by DC85, posted 03-12-2010 6:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 211 of 245 (550134)
03-12-2010 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Taz
03-10-2010 11:36 PM


Re: Mathmatics & Universe
Taz writes:
I'm sorry for interrupting, but would you like to tell us what these mathematical assumptions are? I'm pretty literate in mathematics and have worked for a number of years in research, so I'm sure I could understand at least some of what you have to tell us.
Thanks in advance.
Hi Taz. You're welcome. I looked for a thread where Cavediver was posting about how somehow matter equates to math if my recollection is correct. I was unable to find what thread this was in. Perhaps I've got that wrong and someone will correct me.
This site appears to be an objective one on what I've alluded to. There is an admission of when the math breaks down, though from my POV, the math, relatively all of the way back assumes a relative uniformitarian model which, imo, is no more falsifiable than the ID creationist Buz model for an eternal (perpetual machine, if you will) universe.
You should know that the moment of the Big Bang itself presents problems for physicists. The problem is that the language that we use to describe the universe, i.e. mathematics, breaks down when things become zero (the size of the universe) and infinite(the temperature and density). These conditions are called singularities. The mathematics works fine for any time after the Big Bang but not for moment of the bang itself.
A slightly mathematical example from the Special Theory of Relativity of a singularity may be helpful. The equation to the right expresses the mass m that a body has when it is moving at a speed v relative to us. The quantity m0 is called the rest mass and is the mass the body has when it is at rest relative to us.
However, if we try to apply this equation to a light particle, a photon, its speed v relative to us is exactly equal to c. Thus, the denominator is the square root of 1 - 1 = 0. In mathematics if we divide any finite quantity by zero the result is infinite. However, for light we say that the rest mass is zero, which is reasonable since we can never have light at rest relative to us.
The mathematicians say that zero divided by zero is undefined, by which they mean you can't do it. Physicists, however, are not bound by the strict rules of mathematics and will happily bend those rules to describe a phenomena. Here we say that the rest mass of zero and the denominator, also zero, work out to be just the finite mass of a photon. Thus we sort of wave our hands and work around this singularity presented by Special Relativity.
http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/...n/GenRel/BigBangModel.html
Edited by Buzsaw, : Update Message Title

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Taz, posted 03-10-2010 11:36 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Taz, posted 03-13-2010 1:49 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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