WooHoo! More idiots running the gub'ment.

Five times a day, bowing northeast toward England. I use a Second Edition On the Origin of Species as a prayer stone.

Blasphemer! Only the first edition is the One True Word of Darwin (blessings be upon him and all monkeykind).

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I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon

I will certainly agree that there are large differences between protestants and catholics, but both have blood on their hands. Perhaps because it sounds as if you are trying to absolve Christianity from any wrong doing by saying that those people only called themselves Xtians, but are not real Xtians.That begs the question of who arbitrates what a real Christian looks like.I'm sure for some people that appears very convenient for Christianity to pick and choose who the real Christians are versus the imposters. I'm assuming if they take exception to you, that's probably the angle they are looking at it from.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

Yeah, I know, but, those are just so damn expensive.In order to keep myself out of trouble I was going to add something atleast somewhat on-topic but i think the original theme has been lost in the aethersphere.

You mean these non-violent parts of the NT? Also there is more violence in the OT (none of which is disputed by fundamental Christians) then there is in the whole Quran (most of which is poetic soliloquy and monlogues rather than the historical narrative evident in much of the OT).Also, here are a few hate filled quotes from your "non-violent" Christian Protestant idols. John Calvin was a self-accused, cold-blooded murder. He had fellow protestant reformer, Michael Servetus, arrested and then personally requested his execution by beheading because he disagreed with his theology: Martin Luther was a murderer, an anti-semitic racist and a disgusting filthy person who NO ONE should admire.These are not just idle, empty threats. He was very influential in the politics of Germany after it rejected Catholism and embraced Protestantism and his very words were used 400 years later as a framework for Hitler’s persecution and extermination of the Jewish race in Nazi Europe.This is just the tip of the iceberg of Protestant leaders, reformation and great awakening ministers who advocate hatred, slavery and other inhumane behavior and speach. Should I list all the ministers of the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries who supported slavery, racism and segregation? Need I go on?You say that atheism is a direct reflection of "atheistic" leaders such as Mao Zedung, Stalin, and others. Yet, you are a hyporcite when you blatantly ignore and passively condone the evident racism, hate-speach and suppression of human rights promoted by the very people you applaud as being Christian role models.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

Actually, there are many things that can cause someone to become an atheist, nearly as many causes as there are atheists. You should visit an ex-Christian forum, such as No webpage found at provided URL: http://ex-christian.net/, some time to learn what some of them are. Read their stories. However, if you join the forum I would advise you to not try to "save" them; they have had a lot of experience with many such jerks and certainly know how to deal with them effectively. For that matter, since they had been where you are now but now have seen the light, they will most likely try to save you. So while visiting there, you need to practice the Pharisee teaching of not doing to others that which is displeasing to yourself (Rabbi Hillel, c. 20 BCE).Barring some ex-Christians, most atheists have no desire to convert others. Some other values that I have noticed in many atheists are being realistic, honesty, truthfulness, and a desire to seek truth and knowledge. If you wish to consider those traits to be unique to atheism, then so be it -- my experience has indicated to me that they are certainly lacking in fundamentalist Christianity, especially in those under the thrall of "creation science." Because the quality of life is so much better as an atheist.Perhaps a couple analogies would help. Drinking and smoking. Giving them up or not indulging is akin to atheism. Let's start with smoking. Why abstain from smoking? Because it's healthier? Yes, that would be a reason, but the real reason is that life without smoking is better. I had tried to pick up the habit in college to relieve stress, but it only made things worse so I gave up trying. From ex-smokers, I understand that besides being able to build up your wind and ability to breathe and not needing to cough your lungs out in the morning (I lived in a company house in Germany where I was the only non-smoker and the sound of that coughing was what I woke up to every morning), you can also finally smell things that you couldn't before. And you can also finally taste your food. You're no longer being blocked from enjoying the world because of smoking. And why abstain from drinking, especially in excess? Again, the quality of life is better. Comparatively speaking, you can wake up in the morning feeling somewhat rested, your head is clear, your IG tract is not in distress; my own problem drinking had been getting out-of-control, so I put a stop to it and I have personally experienced the benefits.As an example that this analogy works, consider the case of a friend from church, Gary. For many years, he had been a hard-core fundamentalist. Of course he would constantly encounter every-day facts of life that contradicted his beliefs, so he had to practice self-deception and blind himself to the truth. The problem with that is that you have to keep piling on more and more self-deception. Finally, the self-deception just became too overwhelming, so he decided to apply the Matthew 7:20 test to Christianity. OK, some of the fruits were good, but a lot of the fruits of Christianity were bad -- remember now, Jesus set up that test so that even one wicked fruit would condemn the tree to being hacked down and thrown into the fire. So he dumped Christianity and became, as he put it, "an atheist and a thorough humanist." And as such he became not only much happier, but also much more spiritually fulfilled. The only thing he missed was the practice of expressing gratitude to a supreme being (much as an ex-smoker might miss certain situations for lighting up), but that was a very small price to pay for the vast improvement in his quality of life and the quality of his state of mind.Another thing to look at is why an atheist would ever want to convert to Christianity, especially to your brand. I know that for me the very idea is morally repugnant. In order for me to convert, especially to a sect that embraces "creation science", I would need to embrace something that I know is a pack of lies and deception. I would need to abandon morality and become a willing and willful accomplice to that lying and deceiving.Why would anyone with even a shred of morality choose to do such a thing?

To add onto what others have said regarding values that atheists hold.I have never met a single christian in my life who actually cares for the environment. The fundamentalist ones (like you and your soul-mate Ann Coulter) seem to think that we can rape and pillage this Earth all we want. The rapture, after all, will soon come upon us, so why bother keep the air clean for our kids? The less fundamentalist ones just don't seem to care at all.For me as an atheist I apply common sense to this issue. If we leave crap lying around eventually our children will inherit a pile of crap. And I'm speaking as someone that has vowed to never have biological kids of my own. We'll adopt when we're ready. But the point is without the threat of eternal damnation we atheists can actually think about it and genuinely care for this wonderful planet of ours. On the other hand, with the threat of eternal damnation, you people only seem to want to ruin it.If you want to know what atheist values are, there's one for you to think about. Even if we consider all those violent people in the past as not true christians, I would still have a problem with your so-called real christians. The ones you refer to as real christians certainly don't use violence to oppress others, but they use other means to oppress.Case in point. Florida in 04 passed a law that banned gay people from adopting orphans. As a result, thousands of children remained in the system until they reached 18 when they were kicked out to fend for themselves. NPR recently ran a story of a specific gay couple who for years tried to adopt 2 boys they previously foster cared for. When the law got passed, these boys were forcefully removed from their loving parents and grew up in the system. They were 10 and 12, so of course no straight couple wanted to adopt them.Another example is the recent proposed bill by the christian right in Iowa to exclude gay students from their anti-bullying law. I'm not even exaggerating. Look it up yourself. They specifically introduced a bill that would specifically take out gay students from their already existing anti-bullying law.These were just two examples out of many acts by your so-called real christians that I find downright evil, let alone immoral.Violence isn't the only criterion for immorality. The fact that you even introduced this argument is disturbing to me. Think of all the evil yet non-violent acts in human history. It's mind-boggling to me that you haven't already seen this.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Hi Wise. I appreciate your manner of expressing your reasoning in a civil manner.Problems:
1. I'm convinced that the enormity of logical reasons to go with creation science overshadows what mainline sience considers empirical. Both have unknowns and significant questionable aspects.2. I'm convinced that creationism has way too much significant visible corroborating evidences to simply sweep under the proverbial rug.3. Most folks whom I'm aware of who have denounced Christianity are oblivious to the very significant corroborating evidence of Christianity and the Biblical record. Why? Simply because they have never seriously gotten into such scriptural evidences such as fulfilled prophecy, corelating historical and archeological evidence. This is partly because most professing Christians are nominal and shallow. The other significant part is the inept pastors and teachers in the churches who themselves are oblivious to the prophecies and anything other than gospel and doctrinal issues.4. I'm convinced that mainline science relies too much on mathmatical assumptions, uniformatism and the notion that no aspect of the possible existence of higher intelligence in the universe should be on the table for consideration.5. I'm convinced that there is no sensible model which allows for the enormity of design advancement all the way from the chaotic alleged singularity to all of the complexity observed in the cosmons and on planet earth. This defies all of what is observed in the physical world around us. It is particularly the early stages of origins such as abiogenesis and formation of the cosmos all from chaotic matter that convince me. It takes all manners of abstract processes in order to arrive at science conclusions void of ID.6. Though I can't verify to any outside of the people involved, God has so wonderfully revealed himself in imperical miraculous ways in so many significant ways that it would be real stupid for me to turn around and denounce him. It would take a sizeable volumn book to cover them all. It's not that I deserve more than anyone else, but that I've learned to go by the book and get close to God, dedicating myself to his precepts. It's not been all rosy. To whom much is given, much is required. When I sin, God reveals himself as a father would to a son whom he loves and chastens. I appreciate that. It's a love/fear/respect thing as it was to my earthly father as a kid. My dad loved me but he saw to it that I towed the mark. Now I appreciate that. It was the same with my boys. They thank me now for making them tow the mark as children. Now they're both very successful and living for God as well. My elder son is big into creation science with significantly more knowledge than I have.In conclusion I'm too logical and sensible to ignore the evidence for the supernatural and to buy the abstract highly improbable random, non-ID explanation of origins.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

I'm sorry for interrupting, but would you like to tell us what these mathematical assumptions are? I'm pretty literate in mathematics and have worked for a number of years in research, so I'm sure I could understand at least some of what you have to tell us.Thanks in advance.

Yes, well, could you answer the question? Were Calvin and Luther Christians? Yeah, I noticed. When GWB proposed the war on Iraq, all the Protestant congregations were against it ...... oh, wait. However, in this case it was the pacifists who were the nonconformists.

Taz, you're sure caught up into this pro gay campaign. You know, there's a reason gays stayed in the proverbial closet until the 1960s or so. It's because it's not natural and most cultures considered it to be as deviant as adultery, fornication and prostitution. Most cultures considered it to degrade the culture and an embarrasment out of the closet.I treat gays the same as everyone else, but I'm just telling you the facts. Don't get all bent outa shape when some people regard gays as human cultures have throughout history.Whether you go with evolution or ID, the sex organs were no more designed for gay sex than your car was designed for an all positive battery or a male pipe fitting was designed to connect to another male fitting.So far as the concern for the environment, some of us who are just as concerned as the whakos, use better judgement as to where to draw the line. If you want to tow the environmentalist line, sell your car and walk or ride a horse. Don't buy a bike. There's too much stuff involved in the making of it to be environmentally kosher. Wear all cotton, don't heat your house, stay off the asphalt when you walk. It takes a lot of oil, you know and oil doesn't grow on trees. If you really want to tow the environmentalist line, tow it and stop being a preachy hypocrite.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Well, unless you count all the higher authorities to which atheists are in fact subject. But if you mean God, that's not a value, that's just (so far as we know) a fact. You disbelieve in flying pigs --- would you say that it was a aflyingpiggist value that no pig can fly over your head and crap on you? No, we haven't. On the contrary, we have told you that there can be no shared set of atheist values any more than there can be a shared set of values between people who disbelieve in flying pigs. You and I both disbelieve in flying pigs --- does that mean we should have the same opinions on ethics or politics or aesthetics or ... well, anything else? Well, yes. And that is in fact the only good reason for believing anything about a proposition of factual type. Could there possibly be a good reason for not believing in flying pigs --- except for thinking that it is true that there are no flying pigs? Looks more like the fruits of Communism to me. But religious people have behaved with equally wanton cruelty. The problem is that when people think they're "accountable to a higher power", they tend to come to the conclusion that what this higher power wants them to do is what they in fact want to do. Did anyone ever say to himself: "I want to burn heretics ... but I bet God wouldn't approve, so I won't"?

Like lightbulbs. Like early Christians. And yet gay people seem to enjoy it. Apparently your God did indeed design the human body in such a way that such things as anal sex, fellatio, and mutual masturbation would be fun. Any idea why? But that would not be "toeing [note spelling] the environmentalist line", since no environmentalist does in fact preach that people shouldn't walk on asphalt, nor condemn bicycles as the work of iniquity.I don't think you've thought this one through.

No, buz, that is not the reason. That os YOUR reason for wanting them to be back in the closet. That is YOUR reason for hating them. Oh really? Like which? Oh, you mean christians and chrisitans only. Catholics fuck little boys=gay. The romans did it too. Ancient Greeks? Yep. BULLSHIT you do. That is an utter farce and you know it. A lie buz, a lie. My cock will fit the same in a man's ass the same as it does in my old lady's cooter.Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

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"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan"On a personal note I think he's the greatest wrestler ever. He's better than Lou Thesz, Gorgeous George -- you name it."-The Hulkster on Nature Boy Ric Flair

Really, not natural, Buz? So, when god created all this Homosexual behaviour in anaimals, he didn't actually do that because he wanted to show it's perfectly natural? He didn't create lesbain lizards, for example, who have sex with one another to stimulate ovulation and thus reproduce (by cloning themselves), to show homosexuality to be natural. He actuyally wanted to show us how bad it is, and that it goes completely against what he thinks nature should be? Is that what you are saying?