On Objectivity and the Mindless Middle

Hi Rahvin,I'm having trouble following your entire post. I get what you mean by "mindless middle" and I agree that "Only objectivity allows us to be reasonably assured that our conclusions accurately reflect the real world external to our minds. "But what do you mean by "unconscious mind" and how does it differ (in a functional way) from our conscious mind? What evidence do you have that it makes "decisions"?I've never heard or read anything about that, most of the time when I've seen the term "unconscious mind" it is used very loosely. You however are presenting it as something factual and/or something objectively evidenced, which I would be very interested to learn about.You said: "Our subconscious mind makes snap decisions for us," and "Our subconscious cannot even differenciate between fantasy and reality; to the subconscious mind, a dream and a memory create equal familiarization - an emotionally charged dream will color our "gut feelings" more than a bland but detailed memory." - I don't believe this is a very accurate statement, again, unless you are using the word "subconscious" in a way that I'm not getting.More to the point, are you saying that there is a conscious mind and an unconscious mind? And if so, can you provide evidence to support that because I would honestly love to read about that.- Oni

Hi Rahvin,Thanks for this very clear explanation and I actually was looking for a new book to read so I may check it out.First, I get the overall meaning of what you're trying to explain in this thread. My issue I guess is with the author's use of the term "subconscious" - it seems to be very misleading. He seems to be using the term to indicate another consciousness seperate (sub) from normal consciousness. An area in the brain that has instincts, urges, desires and thoughts - that can make decisions or feel things - when that is not the case at all. And if that's what he/she is claiming, then I feel he/she is making some very false and unevidenced assertions.Maybe I'm reading too deep into it, but for example: But this is the function of the whole brain, there is no seperation. Insticts and urges are chemical reactions to stimuli, not subconscious decision making.I hope I'm making sense? Do you have evidence to support that? Because what you are describing is a part of our brain that gives us "qualia" - an area that gives us our subjective experiences. Yeah, I agree. Every single sentient being, I would guess, experiences reality in this way, subjectively. I know lots of people like this, and I actually envy it to an extent. Outside of debate, or a debate forum like this one, this "mindless middle" seems like the less stressful way of dealing with things - just not give a shit, and giving both sides equal relevance. I personally can't be that way - I guess I'm wired to object and argue - but I can see how it's an appealing position to take.- Oni

Hi nlerd, I get it in this context. But again, it is misleading. There is no subconscious part of the brain that makes conscious decisions - and that's what it sounds like when you say, "Phobias and irational fears are a good example of the subconscious making decisions for a person."A more accurate way IMO to say it would be that phobia's and irrational fears are chemical reactions due to stimuli, that act in a specific way because of the way the person's brain developed.- Oni

Hi Rahvin, sorry for the late reply. I was interpreting it that way. In this context I fully understand what you, and the author, mean. I'm not aware of any conscious processes in the brain -vs- unconscious. I see something, things happen between my eye and brain, then I react - I'm an not conscious of any of it.I'll grant you that, since we are each equiped with a different brain, every single persons reaction to stimuli will be different. This is I guess what you mean by certain functions in our brain that color our reaction to stimuli? I get that you react to certain stimuli in a unique way. I guess what I would ask for now is an example of a feeling that you can consciously control, so I can fully understand what you mean.Thanks for your patience Rahvin.- Oni

But there is no conscious mind -vs- unconscious mind, there is only the mind. And if we are being specific in our use of terms, the"mind" is consciousness.If we change our terms from mind to "brain," and say, the conscious processes in our brain -vs- the unconscious processes in our brain, then I'd ask for an example of a conscious process in your brain?IMO, it is all an unconscious process. Some dictated by stimuli, some a reaction to stimuli with an added reason based on phobias, etc., some with genetic predispositions as well.(Example: I am gentically predispositioned for fight instead of flight)But I don't think any of us are consciously aware of the processes in our brain. Well sure, you are not consciously aware of certain actions.But say for instance, you consciously see a piece of paper and grab it. The information hit your eye, some kind of process takes place between your eye and brain, and your hand reached out for it.Now your little brother is sitting there watching TV. His nose has an itch, some kind of process takes place between the nose and the brain, and he picks his nose.The only difference in the 2 cases is being consciously aware of the stimuli. The process, as you can see, is the same.- Oni