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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Biblical Record
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2622 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 1 of 348 (550272)
03-14-2010 12:28 AM


Here's Buz in Message 103 of the Forum name change thread:

Buzsaw writes:

Logic says that the probability of a sub-particle, sub-sub-sub........microscopic area of whatever progressing in complexity and volumn into all (and more) of what we can observe today void of any intelligent planning or design, is less than the probability of the Biblical record which is supported by significant corroborating evidences.

Okay, I'm not going to attempt to untangle the majority of that sentence, but I want to focus on the last part:

quote:
...the Biblical record which is supported by significant corroborating evidences.

Buz refers to this corroborating evidence a lot. But what exactly is it?

To my mind, corroborating evidence is a set of data that is both independently derived and that also substantially supports the validity of a certain factual claim.

Claims to Biblical accuracy have to meet both criteria, just like any other factual claim does. For one, you can't use the Bible to corraborate other claims in the Bible, just like I can't use my own diary to support my claim that I smoked herb with Abbie Hoffman at Woodstock. Me agreeing with myself doesn't prove anything.

Second, this evidence has to be substantial. Again, I could claim that I mooned President Bush Jr during his first inaugural address. A credit card receipt showing that I was in DC on the day in question might be independent evidence, and it would indicate that I was in the right place that the right time to be able to do it, but it would also be trivial, because it doesn't go to the substance of the claim.

So I'd like some specifics. What factual claims are being made about the Bible for which someone has independent evidence that isn't trivial?

Edited by Admin, : No reason given.


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
Replies to this message:
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Admin
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Posts: 12591
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 2 of 348 (550277)
03-14-2010 8:39 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Evidence for the Biblical Record thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2622 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 3 of 348 (550289)
03-14-2010 12:50 PM


For the sake of sanity.
I'll suggest that maybe it would be wise to pick one extraordinary claim that hasn't been beaten to death - the Exodus, the Tower of Babel, something like that - and see what can be made of it.

Since this post was inspired by Buz, maybe he'd care to proffer some of his evidence and explain what claim it substantiates.


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6058
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 4 of 348 (550291)
03-14-2010 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ZenMonkey
03-14-2010 12:28 AM


I will be surprised if you get any bites
The bible people know that they cannot provide any corroborating evidence. They expect it to be accepted on faith and faith alone.

But if you do get a bite, it should be fun.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-14-2010 12:28 AM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14826
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 5 of 348 (550304)
03-14-2010 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ZenMonkey
03-14-2010 12:28 AM


Buzsaw's claims seem to be part of a campaign to discredit the Bible.

His archaeological "evidence" is seriously lacking and tainted with justifiable suspicions of fraud.

His fulfilled prophecies rely on twisting the Bible and even then he has problems coming up with a real "success" (does anybody remotely sane think that a single world government is even possible in the near future ?)

Science is wrong because a guy who can't even understand the ideas he rejects must know better than the experts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-14-2010 12:28 AM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

    
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2023 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 6 of 348 (550305)
03-14-2010 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ZenMonkey
03-14-2010 12:50 PM


Book of Daniel
You could probably consume this entire thread with just the historical inaccuracies in the Book of Daniel. Start with 1:1, Nebuchadnezzar did not invade Judah during the 3rd year of the reign of Jehoiakim.


If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 7 of 348 (550309)
03-14-2010 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ZenMonkey
03-14-2010 12:50 PM


Re: For the sake of sanity.
Hi Zen,

Zenmonkey writes:

I'll suggest that maybe it would be wise to pick one extraordinary claim that hasn't been beaten to death - the Exodus, the Tower of Babel, something like that - and see what can be made of it.

Claim

Moses in the Bible writes:

Genesis 1;1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Evidence

The heavens and the earth exist.

God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Replies to this message:
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2827 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


(3)
Message 8 of 348 (550311)
03-14-2010 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
03-14-2010 3:39 PM


Re: For the sake of sanity.
I created the Heavens and the Earth.

The evidence:

The heavens and the Earth exist.

P.S. And I didn't make it out of positrons. One more point for me.


You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6058
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 9 of 348 (550312)
03-14-2010 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
03-14-2010 3:39 PM


Fail
See #8


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 10 of 348 (550317)
03-14-2010 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by lyx2no
03-14-2010 3:46 PM


Re: For the sake of sanity.
Hi no,

lyx2no writes:

I created the Heavens and the Earth.
The evidence:

The heavens and the Earth exist.

P.S. And I didn't make it out of positrons. One more point for me.

I would think science would disagree with you creating the heaven and the earth in your lifetime.

But I might be wrong.

If you created it you did create positrons as they exist also.

I am glad we have found one thing we can agree on and that is that the heavens and the earth exist.

God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by lyx2no, posted 03-14-2010 3:46 PM lyx2no has responded

Replies to this message:
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straightree
Member (Idle past 2862 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 11 of 348 (550319)
03-14-2010 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ZenMonkey
03-14-2010 12:28 AM


Twisting the argument
I am not sure what Buzsaw was meaning in his statement, and he is not around for the moment, so I will twist the argument for my purposes. Taking the statement as it is, it only says that the probability of atomic particles organizing by themselves to produce the universe, and all its content, including life as we know, is less than the probability for the Bible creation description to be true. He is not saying how high this probability is!

I personally think that the probability increases, as we diminish the literalism.


This message is a reply to:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 12 of 348 (550323)
03-14-2010 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ICANT
03-14-2010 4:25 PM


Re: For the sake of sanity.
ICANT writes:

I would think science would disagree with you creating the heaven and the earth in your lifetime.


Well, seeing as he is from "A vast, undifferentiated plane". I'd say the normal flow of time has no effect on him. Now, pay him the respects your creator deserves! Or burn in hell!
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2827 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


(1)
Message 13 of 348 (550328)
03-14-2010 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ICANT
03-14-2010 4:25 PM


Trivialities
I would think science would disagree with you creating the heaven and the earth in your lifetime.

I would certainly hope so; however, it is not science's judgement on the table but yours. You present a glib response to the OP as if it were meaningful. It's devastated in an equally glib but thoroughly meaningful fashion. Yet you go on your marry way as if you've added something to the conversation.

Please, ICANT, put forward a real challenge rather then rhetoric. Do you have anything that positively establishes one of the many controversial claims of the Bible? I gladly conceded that you have evidence of the place called Egypt, but do you have any evidence that man did exist in the evening of a day in which he did not exist in the morning?

If you created it you did create positrons as they exist also.

This is simply deflection. Here it doesn't matter. It's all in fun. But you use this kind of tactic in most of your arguments.

I am glad we have found one thing we can agree on and that is that the heavens and the earth exist.

I'm sure we agree on lots of things, but what fun would it be if we sang the same tune?


You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.
This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 348 (550332)
03-14-2010 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ZenMonkey
03-14-2010 12:28 AM


Re: Some Evidence Starters
Zen Monkey writes:

So I'd like some specifics. What factual claims are being made about the Bible for which someone has independent evidence that isn't trivial?

Good job on the OP, Zen. I appreciate that you have enough interest to open this topic. I agree that the Biblical corroborating evidence must involve physical observation and not simply Bible corroborating Bible.

So far as the prophecies and some other evidence, it mayl be necessary to cite various Biblical corroborating texts so as to verify what is being prophesied etc.

Most of the evidence which I've alluded to has been cited and debated over the years available here and there in the archives. Perhaps this thread will be useful so as to update and collect it into one thread.

Just as is the case with some science issues, some evidences are more empirical and falsifiable than others.

It must be understood that all physical evidence supportive to the Biblical record becomes necessarily supportive to personal non-falsifiable experience only for the one/ones involved with experience.. In other words, according to the Bible, all who call upon God and become his follower will become enlightened via receiving and believing and receiving Jesus God's son. One thus receives the spirit of Jesus and of God the father, i.e. the Holy Spirit. Certain gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, coupled with corroborating physical evidence work together so as to effect faith. To the ones who draw close to God, such personal evidences such as phenomenal answers to prayer, phenomenal circumstances miracles, etc, work to enforce and corroborate the physical evidences.

I know that personal unverifiable experience is not what this thread is about. The sole reason for citing them is to say that these experiences (for the believer) substantially enforce and corroborate the physical evidences which will be cited in this thread.

I'll begin my case with some of the evidences which I've cited in an archived thread linked below. Perhaps from this list some members, pro or con, may wish to make comments.

I see PaulK has already touched on a couple, but that's about all PaulK ever does is touch on, or perhaps kick the thorns, glibly alleging that there is nothing, no matter how much the evidence, verifiable in the Bible relative to miracle. I've pretty much given up on responding to the same oles from members like PaulK, so I suggest if you want responses from me, allow me the same consideration that you require from me in attempting to refute.

Buzsaw writes:

Some corroborative examples supportive to the divine inspiration of the Biblical record:

1. Archaeological evidence in the Gulf of Aqaba region of Nuweiba beach and sandbar which secularist archaeologists avoid and refuse to verify or refute. The National Geographic, for example has claimed that there is absolutely no evidence of the Biblical Exodus. I watched their so called "Exodus Revealed" program where they cited a traditional Mt Sinai version of the Exodus where the crossing was allegedly near the traditional mountain at the mouth of Aqaba where there was no evidence whatsoever. The ones who produced this which was essentially an undermining of the real Exodus cite where the evidence was repeatedly reminded the viewers that there was no evidence for the Exodus whatsoever, referring to the old traditional cite. They totally ignored the Nuweiba cite where all of the evidence, including the chariot debris, the entrapment terrain, the burnt topped mountain, the NT statement that it was in Arabia and the split rock as well as other evidence.

(Edited into original text: I have long chided the National Geographic's Robert Ballard, marine geologist/researcher who apparantly has no interest in falsifying or substantiating the Nuweiba crossing evidence. Imo, National Geographic does not want any evidence which would destroy their secular humanist world view. They have the same problem as our secular humanist folks here who assume no responsibility to a higher power. To admit one eensy weensy miracle would be evidence that a higher power/iintelligence. exists. )

2. Lack of transitional fossil evidence.

3. Enormity of complexity and design observed on earth and in the cosmos.

4. Prophecy of Ezekiel 35 through 39 which predicts end time messianic declarations of scattering of Jews throughout the world to be restored as a nation.
35, 36 = Prophecy of Edom/modern Palestinians, descendents of Essau and Ishmael where these people would be claiming two nations including the Jewish holy cites such as the Temple Mount.

36 = Prophecy of desolate hills and valleys of Israel coming to life and being restored to production and lush vegetation.

37 = Prophecy of the Jews returning to their land never to be again removed and that they would return from all nations and dwell in their own land under messianic reign of the messiah who was to be the descendant of David.

38. = Prophecy of the nations surrounding nations and nations north of Israel who would threaten and eventually invade the restored nation, i.e. Armageddon. The nations named and described are in place as enemies of Israel all working for the division of the land and of the annihilation of the nation as Jewish and as Israel.

5. Prophecies of end time Messiah in Isaiah 52 who would be first offered up as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind (Isaiah 53,54) and who would become ruler of restored Israel.

6. Prophecy of Jesus in Luke 21 when he prophesied that Jerusalem would be invaded and become occupied by Gentile nations until the end times when it would again be occupied by Jews.

7. Compatibility with 1LoT in that no energy is created from nothing. All energy, matter and forces comes from the divine omnipotent creator to be changed and managed by the designer according to his intelligent creative and manageability powers.

8. Compatibility with 2LoT in that equilibrium is effected when energy moves from creator to creation. This is effected by work of the designer. An example of this is also when Jesus healed the woman who had a blood issue affliction. When the woman was healed, Jesus noted that energy had left him and went into her ailment to effect the healing.

9. Observance of cultures comparing Biblical cultures with pagan and secularist cultures where the more blessed cultures are those who follow Biblical principles and guidelines.

As I have always contended, it's not that each of the above proves the Biblical record, but that when you corroborate all of these, not to mention many other evidences which I've not cited, you have evidences supportive to the inspiration of the Biblical record. There are arguments pro and con for some of the above, but the more corroboration you have for any ideology, the more credible the ideology becomes.

There are pro and con arguments to all ideologies, but the folks here at EvC, for the most part tend to refuse acknowledgement of the corroborative pro arguments which are supportive to the Biblical record.
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&t=8712...

ABE) Item 2; make that lack of evolution transitional fossils. There should be far more than the few questionable ones claimed.

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

Edited by Buzsaw, : note addition to original text

Edited by Buzsaw, : Tidy up message


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 15 of 348 (550333)
03-14-2010 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
03-14-2010 3:39 PM


Re: For the sake of sanity.
Genesis 1;1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Evidence

The heavens and the earth exist.

You're forgetting one critical element. The causation for what exists -- God. Where is the indisputable evidence of that? Sure, the earth exists. That doesn't prove that God, whatever God is, created it. Therein lies the crux of the situation.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston
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