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Member (Idle past 4510 days) Posts: 428 From: Portland, OR USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Evidence for the Biblical Record | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
The archeological evidence that has been discovered has added weight to the fact that the bible was recording the events of real places and real people. The kings of the nations it mentions have been confirmed by archeology, the customs of the various nations has been confirmed and even the building work and landmarks mentioned in the bible have been discovered by archeology. Have you a heard of Samuel Clemons(Mark Twain)? He wrote a couple books that have real people and places in them. So I assume that makes them true? How about the "The DaVinci Code"? That is so full of real people and places it must be practically scripture. Your logic is flawed to the point that it is ludicrous. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
ZenMonkey writes: I'll suggest that maybe it would be wise to pick one extraordinary claim that hasn't been beaten to death - the Tower of Babel, something like that Nimrod did exist. He is mentioned in Arabic traditions as Nimrud or Nimroud. In the Sumerian-Akkadian didactic poems report his heroic deeds. And Jewish historian Josephus refers to him by name. while its true that archaeologists have been unable to identify ancient ruins as definitely being Nimrod’s Tower of Babel, they have found over two dozen similar structures in Mesopotamia. the German archaeologist Walter Andrae did extensive digging in this area at the beginning of the 20th century. he found evidence of these towers (known as ziggurats) with a shrine at the top which supported a gate. these gates were said to be the entry point where God decended to earth. This is interesting because the name Babel is derived from the words Bab, meaning gate and ilu meaning God. therefore the city was a place where God could ascend and decend to the earth. If the story in the bible about the Tower of Babel was nothing more then a myth, then surely they wouldn't have archeological evidence for it. It was much more then a myth...it was a real place with real people.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Theodoric writes: How about the "The DaVinci Code"? That is so full of real people and places it must be practically scripture. Your logic is flawed to the point that it is ludicrous. So is yours. we also have non-fiction writers in the world today... according to your reasoning, we should assume that there is only fiction in this world.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PaulK writes: 1) .....(We should also note that Wyatt and Moeller's preferred dating requires a major rewrite of the Egyptian 18th Dynasty - and one that is contradicted by evidence that may easily be found). The dating is debatable. It is not uncommon for Kings to skew dates, obscure and/or erase evidence of defeat in order that enemies would not discover weakness and other reasons.
On the other hand, the "burnt top mountain" is not burnt. It is simply topped with darker rock, and would have had that appearance long before the Exodus supposedly happened. This evidence assumes that the story is inaccurate and exaggerated. That has not been verified because the Saudi's do no allow access to it by researchers. It must be understood that any research in the region is risky and dangerous, given the Muslim Saudis have no desire to support the Biblical record relative to anything supportive to Israel and Jews.
THe NT statement has also been looked at and seems to be simply a misinterpretation, mistaking modern Saudi Arabia for the "Arabia" of the ancient writers. LOL on this one, Paul. It was the land of Midian which is on the east side of the Gulf of Aqaba where the OT text says Moses met with his father in law, Jethro, priest of Midian. It all jives nicely with both OT and NT.
The split rock is just a split rock. How rare are split rocks ? Is there any more significant evidence at that site to link it to the Exodus ? Paul, you need to understand:1) That though there may be an occasional spit rock in various locations, this spiit rock has a dry bed flow evidence of a significant flow of water, enough to cut a stream. There would be no reason for a stream flowing from this relatively small rising other than a flow of water from the crack in the rock. 2. This unusual phenomenon just happens to be in prezactly the right location needful for corroborating the Nuweiba site where the wheel and axle shaped formations were photographed. 2) The alleged lack of transitional fossils is an old creationist canard and one that has been repeatedly refuted here. And a host of creationists aren't buying the relative scanty allegements of species transional evidence. We maintain that there should be a great abundance of transitionals from numerous stages of transition.
3) Is just a subjective opinion. There is in fact no clear evidence of design as such outside of human - and maybe some animal - activity. Yah, and the debate goes on numerous reputable scientists on both sides of the debate.
4) Ezekiel 35-39 appears to be a revenge fantasy referring to ancient peoples which Buz interprets according to his own murderous fantasies. We must remember that Ezekiel wrote during the Exile and very likely had return from Babylon in mind. Here you show either your ignorance or your deliberate choice to sweep under the proverbial rug all of the data in these chapters which obviously allude to a future time. This all corroborates with Jesus's prophecy that Jerusalem would be occupied by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Paul you keep on ignoring my citing significance of the Six Day Warwhen Jews restored occupation and control of the old walled city just as prophesied By Ezekiel, Jesus and other prophets. This all corroborates the futuristic understanding of Ezekiel 38 and explains the stuff in those chapters which in no way applied to ancient events. Paul, this is what I mean about the uselessness of debating with you on anything smacking of miracle. You wouldn't acknowledge it if it if it were able to bite your butt.
While Israel has made major efforts in irrigation it is questionable whether even this aspect of Ezekiel's prophecy can be said to be fulfilled in any significant way. Human hard work - aided by modern technology - is not divine intervention. The biggy divine part in question here is the divine fulfillment of prophecy. The odds of a tiny nation of identifiable people being scattered globally for nearly two millenniums and return as as the same identifiable people would be beyond realistic calculation.
As was shown in past discussion the Edomites are gone, a people lost to history and most likely absorbed into the Jewish population. Ezekiel's "prophecy" did not predict that they would covet "two kingdoms" it predicted punishment for them because they had coveted the two kingdoms (Israel and Judah). Buz's reading makes nonsense of the prophecy. The important thing relatively to the prophecy is that the Semetic Gentiles that occupy the land of Edom, being the very location of the Semetic descendents of Hagar, and Esau who are claiming two nations i.e. their own and Israel's as per the prophecy in Ezekiel 35:10, the prophecy concerning Edom.
Ezekiel 37 requires the return of the Lost Tribes of Israel and the reestablishment of the Davidic monarchy. Neither has occurred, therefore it is hard to see how it can be considered "evidence". The primary people cited in these prophecies is Judah and Ephraim. The significant thing is that it will be restored as one nation and not two as was the case in ancient days.
Ezekiel 38 names ancient nations. And indeed, I have asked how modern Ethiopia (Ethiopia named as one of the nations) could be said to be a significant threat to Israel. Buz came up empty. Though the Israel/Ethiopia relations have been relatively good, there have, according to the Wiki link below been shaky times when relations have been broken or in question due to pressure from the Arab block nations. One significant thing here relative to this Ethiopean phenomenon is that there have been and are still these Beta Israelite Jews in Etheopia. Imo, for the sake of these, God has had a hand in this arrangement. Many have been allowed to migrate to Israel. Imo by the time of Armageddon Etheopia will be solidly alligned with Israel's enemies as prophesied. Gotta run to an appointment for now. Ethiopia—Israel relations - Wikipedia BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
The existence of the universe is only evidence that the universe exists. a house in the middle of the desert is also evidence that a house exists... we dont assume that its existence doesnt prove that it had a builder... reason tells us that it had a builder Unless of course you believe that ALL matter comes together without direction? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
But you have no evidence yours is not fiction.
You are claiming that your book is true because of the same reasons that any fiction could be true. What you stated is NOT evidence to the historicity of the bible, or for that matter any book. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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lyx2no Member (Idle past 4716 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: |
Hi Peg
I'm fairly sure that everyone will concede that there were people and towns in the olden days. It's the magic acts that need confirmation. Do you have any evidence for them? You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
theodoric writes: But you have no evidence yours is not fiction. the bible records historical events that are confirmed by secular sources such as the destruction of Babylon... the city is still laying in ruins today the invasion of the Nebudcannezza into jerusalem...the kings of Judah being taken captive into foreign nations Cyrus the great releasing jews from captivity Alexander the Great conquering the world of his time, his untimely death and his kingdom being divided among his 4 generals the rise of the roman world empire, the fall of the roman empire Seriously... no historical evidence my foot.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
The first bit about Joseph: They just assert that Joseph = Imhotep, and then assert a whole lot more things about what Joseph did in Egypt. They show no evidence for any of this.
Then about Moses: They assert his adopted mother was Hatshepsut, and that his name was Senmut. His adult name (yeah, a name change, sure) is supposed to be Thutmoses II. Evidence for Moses being Thutmoses II is supposed to be his "hebrew shaped nose". Again, no evidence whasoever. Lots of other unevdienced assertions follow. Before we get to the actual crossing, speculation about the route the isrealites supposedly took. No evidence that they actually took this route presented. Also, we get some talk about a supposed egyptian fort that was supposed to have stood there. A structure is shown, but no evidence for the claim that this was an Egyptian fort. Some assertions are made about where the pillar of clouds was and went. We see "an amazing marker", a pillar that had once fallen over, but is now resurrected again. This is the pillar that marks the point of crossing, or so we are told. But, you guessed it, no evidence is provided. We are told a "matching column" is on the other side. We never see this pillar, though. They do sneakily show some footage of the same pillar, as if to try to fool the audience. Very dishonest. We get told about inscriptions on the "other" pillar. We of course are never shown these inscriptions. The inscriptions on the "Egyptian pillar" were removed by Egyptians, or so we are told. Nowhere is this shown to be the case. They use Google Earth to zoom in on the pillar on the "Egyptian" side. Of course, they never zoom in to the "other pillar". The first underwater picture is shown, this is supposed to be a chariot wheel with three of its four spokes. It looks like a rock to me. Proof that it's a chariot wheel? 90 degree angles, which proves it's a man made structure. Of course, the angles aren't 90 degrees. We are told that using metal detectors, divers have found metal in the "hubs that were found". We are neither shown these hubs, nor shown any evidence that they in fact contain iron. We see more weird shapes that are supposed to be chariot wheels. We are told Wyatt has found many artefacts here. We are not shown any. Formations are shown that "could have once been a chariot cab", seems even the makers of the film aren't too sure about what it is. Another choral with a drawing of a chariot wheel imposed upon it is shown. It doesn't even come close. We are shown a "shrunken hoof" and a femur covered in coral, some more bones are shown. Yes, I'm sure nothing ever drowned there, except when the exodus happened. Some more "chariot wheels". The premier find, is a gold veneer. We are shown something shiny in the water. Curiously, this isn't covered in coral. Everything else in the film is. And that kinda concludes the video. Wow, that's the best you can come up with? I want my 45 minutes back.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
lyx2no writes: I'm fairly sure that everyone will concede that there were people and towns in the olden days. It's the magic acts that need confirmation. Do you have any evidence for them? I cant prove the miracles to you just as I cannot prove them to myself. But its the testimonial evidence of eye witnesses that convince me of their truthfulness. The fact that the bible is a book of truth, of reliable history, of accurate prophecy adds weight to the words of the people who witnessed the miracles and wrote about them. But i've got that confidence only because i've studied the bible... i can understand how someone who perhaps hasnt studied it might be skeptical.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
of accurate prophecy We have discussed your examples of prophecy in the past. They do not pass the sniff test. Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Theodoric writes: We have discussed your examples of prophecy in the past. They do not pass the sniff test. the only way they can be refuted is by sceptics claiming that it was written after the fact... or added in later Remember the book of Daniel... oh yeah! That was a complete forgery written in the 1st century LOL If the only way a prophecy can be disproved is by claiming that it was added in later, then i dont think your analysis passes the sniff test. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: However, the rewrite of the 18th Dynasty required by Wyatt and Moeller is not debatable. It is crazy nonsense. As is the idea of two different people (Thutmoses II and Senmut) BOTH being Moses.
quote: My understanding is that even Wyatt's supporters did not claim that it was actually burnt.And making dubious accusations about the Saudis (who would want to see the great prophet Moses honoured and would likely be very happy if Wyatt's ideas were proved) doesn't really help much. quote: Where does it say that they met in Midian ? (Aside of the time of Moses exile BEFORE he returned to Egypt).
quote: You say that it's unusual but how unusual is it ? Can we see evidence of the alleged water flow ?
quote: You mean like the transitional whale fossils discovered in the '90s ? As a few honest creationists, like Kurt Wise admit the evidence from transitional fossils strongly supports evolution.
quote: And the only reason the debate goes on is because it is based on subjective assessments, with no hard evidence.
quote: This is just your usual bullying technique of making false accusations to hide the fact that your arguments were demolished. Ezekiel's prophecy in Ezekiel 35 was directed to the Edomites of HIS time. What possible use does it have in an era when there are NO identifiable Edomites at all. They vanished from history more than 1900 years ago ! And as I pointed out the prophecy that you attribute to Jesus was probably not spoken by him at all - and you have to ignore parts of it that don't fit. Not to mention the fact that Ezekiel 38 doesn't exactly sound like it means modern warfare:
4"I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them splendidly attired, a great company with buckler and shield, all of them wielding swords;
Cavalry with swords and shields ? Which fits better - modern warfare or ancient warfare ?
quote: Of course there are various reasons for it. In part the Jewish religion with it's own racial - and arguable racist - elements. In part the separation and persecution of Jews at a number of points in history. And of course we can point out that the Lost Tribes did NOT manage to retain their identity. Unlikely events do happen. If that is all you have, it's not much of a case.
quote: Neither the West Bank, nor the Gaza strip include territory that belonged to Edom. Nor is there any reason to think that modern Palestinians have any special connection to Edom. As I pointed out, the Edomites as a people vanish in the 1st Century AD, after intervening in the Jewish side of the Jewish revolt. And the prophecy of Ezekiel does not predict that the Edomites WILL covet two kingdoms - it says that they will be slaughtered because they HAD coveted "the" two kingdoms. And let us point out that a "prophecy" that has not yet come to pass - and for all we know will never come to pass - is hardly evidence that the Bible is true.
quote: Your lack of Biblical knowledge is showing again. Ephraim refers to the Lost Tribes.
quote: Regardless of the state of relations Ethiopia is hardly in a position to attack Israel. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
That has not been verified because the Saudi's do no allow access to it by researchers. It must be understood that any research in the region is risky and dangerous, given the Muslim Saudis have no desire to support the Biblical record relative to anything supportive to Israel and Jews.
Evidence please not just blind assertions. You do know that Moses is a central prophet in Islam, don't you?
quote: Source Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
In researching Buz's latest, this is my favorite line so far.
Per marine biologists, coral does not grow on rocks and sand, only on man-made objects.
Source So there was no such thing as coral before man made items fell into the ocean? Atlantis must be under the Great Barrier Reef. Edited by Theodoric, : punctuation Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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