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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Biblical Record
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 348 (550498)
03-15-2010 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Theodoric
03-15-2010 8:21 PM


Re: Some Evidence Starters
Theodoric writes:
You do know that Moses is a central prophet in Islam, don't you?
You do know that preaching or teaching Bible is forbidden in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and other Muslim nations?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 8:21 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 9:56 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 348 (550502)
03-15-2010 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Huntard
03-15-2010 7:09 PM


Re: Some comments on the video
Huntard writes:
Before we get to the actual crossing, speculation about the route the isrealites supposedly took. No evidence that they actually took this route presented. Also, we get some talk about a supposed egyptian fort that was supposed to have stood there. A structure is shown, but no evidence for the claim that this was an Egyptian fort. Some assertions are made about where the pillar of clouds was and went.
1. The hypothesis of the research begun was the Biblical description of what should be evidenced.
2. The Biblical description required the following:
A. A route towards Midian in Arabia in the region of Jethro, Moses's father in law.
B. A route that would lead to entrapment, but large enough area to accomodate a large number of people at the shore of the crossing.
C A route that would lead to an area where a pillar was erected.
D A route that would lead to a mountain showing evidence of being burnt at some time.
F. A route that would lead to a crossing where some evidence of chariot debris might be found.
G. A route that would lead to a crossing which on the other side would be a split rock and evidence of a water flow from the rock.
H. A route that perhaps would be evidence of bull worship inscriptions.
I. A region where an oasis of water and greenery might be found some distant inland.
We see "an amazing marker", a pillar........
Check.
The corroborating evidence listed above lends support to the wheel and axle shaped formations in the most shallow area of the whole Red Sea, including the gulf. No?
Huntard, et al, scientist Lennart Moller takes the position that here's the evidence. Let the evidence speak for itself and let each decide for themselves about the evidence. That's how science works. Regardless of your assessment of the evidence, it is bonafide scientific evidence for evaluation, i.e. bonafide creation science.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Huntard, posted 03-15-2010 7:09 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 10:11 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 62 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-16-2010 1:37 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 63 by Huntard, posted 03-16-2010 2:51 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 48 of 348 (550504)
03-15-2010 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
03-15-2010 8:56 PM


Fail
You do know that preaching or teaching Bible is forbidden in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and other Muslim nations?
quote:
The Indonesian Constitution states "every person shall be free to choose and to practice the religion of his/her choice" and "guarantees all persons the freedom of worship, each according to his/her own religion or belief".[3] The government, however, officially only recognizes six religions, namely Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Confucianism.
Source
You are correct about Saudi Arabia, but I do not know of any other Muslim country that bans preaching or teaching of the bible. Please enlighten me.
Your comment does not strengthen your argument. All it does is display your ignorance. Moses is a big thing in Islam. This can not be denied. So why would they prevent research into him? Please provide evidence that the Saudi's do not allow research into Moses. I have found a few websites by christians saying they have researched it in Saudi Arabia. Are they lying?
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 03-15-2010 8:56 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 03-15-2010 10:28 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 348 (550505)
03-15-2010 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Theodoric
03-15-2010 8:27 PM


Re: My favorite line so far
Theodoric writes:
So there was no such thing as coral before man made items fell into the ocean? Atlantis must be under the Great Barrier Reef.
Theodoric, to be fair, your source is a blogger's statement. I cannot imagine a marine scientist making such a claim.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 8:27 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 10:13 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 50 of 348 (550507)
03-15-2010 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Buzsaw
03-15-2010 9:35 PM


Re: Some comments on the video
Lennart Moller is a DNA researcher, a biologist, not an archaeologist.
Here is a good debunking of the good doctor.
quote:
Dr. Lennart Moller: There is one find at the Nuweiba location that is of great interest, and that is the gilded wheel. [digital ‘recreation’ appears on screen, based on photo taken by Ron Wyatt] It is a wooden basic structure of the wheel and it is covered with gold or electrum, a mixture of silver and gold, and corals have not been able to grow on it. [really? why not? see questions below] It’s been very well preserved, although it’s very fragile. It seems like the wooden content has been dissolved. So I mean you could break it if you tried to remove it.
Announcer: After its discovery the fragile wheel-shaped veneer was photographed, then left in place on the sea floor. Later analysis revealed that its dimensions and design resembled four-spoked chariot wheels painted on an 18th Dynasty tomb wall near the biblical date of the Exodus.
Note that Moller does not say he discovered this gilded wheel, nor that he saw it, photographed it, nor touched it. There is no undersea footage of the gilded wheel in the film but merely a digital reconstruction of a photograph taken by Wyatt in the 1970s. But note that although almost no coral is shown touching this bright shiny wheel, based on Wyatt's photo, still there are plenty of thick corals growing on one another and seen all over the actual seabed of the Red Sea as shown in the film. Neither does Wyatt's original photo provide clear evidence as to whether the small piece of coral seen on the wheel simply was placed there or not, it doesn’t seem particularly well attached, not compared with the vast conglomerations of corals in the general area. And contra a statement made by Dr. Moller in the film, there does not appear to be any reason why coral should not be able to grow on an object made of gold, silver or a mixture of both, as any archeologist can demonstrate who has dug up objects made of all sorts of ancient precious metals from the sea with coral growing on them.
Neither do Wyatt’s and Moller’s separate tales add up concerning such a gilded wheel. On the one hand Wyatt claimed in the 1970s to have photographed such a wheel and then presented it to Nassif Mohammed Hassan who worked at the Cairo museum whom Wyatt has on tape saying that it resembled an ancient Egyptian chariot wheel. (However what studies did Hassan made of the wheel if any? Did he actually handle it? What evidence is there that Hassan was presented with anything more than just a photograph of the wheel?) Then Hassan died a few years later. So he’s no longer available for questioning. Now compare Moller’s story in his video which speaks about the gilded chariot wheel as if it were extremely fragile, made of 3,500 year old wood covered with gold or electrum, a mixture of silver and gold. And it’s very fragile. It seems like the wooden content has been dissolved. So you could break it if you tried to remove it, and the announcer described it as nothing more than a fragile wheel-shaped veneer. So if Moller is right, how did Wyatt remove such a "fragile wheel-shaped veneer" and present it to the person at the museum without breaking it?
Debunk
And what the hell is this idea that coral will not grow on gold?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Buzsaw, posted 03-15-2010 9:35 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Buzsaw, posted 03-15-2010 11:15 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 83 by RAZD, posted 03-16-2010 5:11 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 51 of 348 (550508)
03-15-2010 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Buzsaw
03-15-2010 9:59 PM


Re: My favorite line so far
The comment was to point out the idiocy of some of the arguments used to push this idea.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 03-15-2010 9:59 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 03-15-2010 10:38 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 348 (550510)
03-15-2010 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Theodoric
03-15-2010 9:56 PM


Re: Indonesia and Bible
Theodoric writes:
You are correct about Saudi Arabia, but I do not know of any other Muslim country that bans preaching or teaching of the bible. Please enlighten me.
Your comment does not strengthen your argument. All it does is display your ignorance. Moses is a big thing in Islam. This can not be denied. So why would they prevent research into him? Please provide evidence that the Saudi's do not allow research into Moses. I have found a few websites by christians saying they have researched it in Saudi Arabia. Are they lying?
Mohammed picked and chose whatever suited his desires what he wanted from the Bible, but I know of no Islamic nation which looks favorably on the Bible, including Indonesia where Biblical churches and people often are persecuted and have their churches attacked and destroyed.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 9:56 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 10:47 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 348 (550511)
03-15-2010 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Theodoric
03-15-2010 10:13 PM


Re: My favorite line so far
Theodoric writes:
The comment was to point out the idiocy of some of the arguments used to push this idea.
This thread is about evidence. Your source served to obfuscate the evidence, leaving the impression to the reader that Moller et al were the idiots.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 10:13 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 10:48 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 54 of 348 (550513)
03-15-2010 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Buzsaw
03-15-2010 10:28 PM


You keep backpedaling
in Message 46
You state
You do know that preaching or teaching Bible is forbidden in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and other Muslim nations?
Now you say.
but I know of no Islamic nation which looks favorably on the Bible, including Indonesia where Biblical churches and people often are persecuted and have their churches attacked and destroyed.
forbidden=not looked on favorably?
Do you truly believe these say the same things? Or did you think the unsourced crap you threw out there would not be questioned?
Buz,
A bit of advice. You need to look at your sources critically. There are a lot of lies and misrepresentations on a lot of web sites. Christian fundie sites are among the worst. You should probably double check before you use any of them as a source. Also, you might want to consider giving sources for this bilge too.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 03-15-2010 10:28 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 55 of 348 (550514)
03-15-2010 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Buzsaw
03-15-2010 10:38 PM


Re: My favorite line so far
Your source served to obfuscate the evidence
Please point out the obfuscation. If you are going to claim something back it up.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 03-15-2010 10:38 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 348 (550516)
03-15-2010 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Theodoric
03-15-2010 10:11 PM


Re: Some comments on the video
I don't know about the details of the alleged gold veneered wheel. I tend to go with what Moller, the scientist concludes than Wyatt. Nevertheless, you can't just discard all of the other evidences on a few of the questionables, imo.
Your site states that coral are often wheel shaped. However, if you google up some coral reefs, you don't see scattered wheel shaped corals void of much else in the area of them as you see here. I viewed some reefs and saw nothing like what we have here, isolated formations on top of a sand bar in line with the corroborated path of the alleged Exodus.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 10:11 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Coyote, posted 03-16-2010 12:04 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 57 of 348 (550518)
03-16-2010 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Buzsaw
03-15-2010 11:15 PM


Re: Some comments on the video
Buz, I'm a professional archaeologist.
I don't do much of anything from photographs. I want to see the evidence first-hand, and to see what it really is.
You can do mundane identifications from drawings and photographs--things we have thousands of in the collections. That is not a problem.
But what you are doing is presenting flimsy evidence for major questions. That just doesn't fly. The larger or more unusual the claim, the more the evidence needs to match.
You can "prove" you have an arrowhead from a drawing or a photograph. But "proving" you have a chariot wheel of a particular type and age requires some more detailed analyses. And "proving" that is the exact one mentioned in the bible requires even more detailed analyses and documentation.
Can't you see that? Just because you might agree with something does not obviate the need for proper documentation.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Buzsaw, posted 03-15-2010 11:15 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 58 of 348 (550519)
03-16-2010 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Peg
03-15-2010 7:15 PM


Re: For the sake of sanity.
But its the testimonial evidence of eye witnesses that convince me of their truthfulness.
Eye witness testimony is about as bad as one can get in the evidence department. People are prone to erring and lying. Especially when they've a dog in the fight.
The fact that the bible is a book of truth, of reliable history, of accurate prophecy
The Bible says π=3, twice. Your Bible is also a book of errors.
The Bible reports a world engulfing floods 4350 years ago. Your Bible is also a book of speciousness.
The Bible prophecies, "[T]here are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." Your Bible is also a book of vageries.
Tell me, Peg, what is the next prophecy that will come to pass? An accurate prophecy surely would allow us to gain a useful knowledge of what is going to be before it happens. I'll prophecy that there will be a auto accident in Melbourne tomorrow. Hadn't you better get out and warn all your neighbors to be careful? It's certainly as accurate as any biblical prophecy.
King Nebbercheckers of Peoria flew a magic unicorn to his home on Pluto. Which part of that statement is supported if we find out there really was a king of Peoria whose name had 14 letters in it, Peg?

You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Peg, posted 03-15-2010 7:15 PM Peg has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 59 of 348 (550522)
03-16-2010 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
03-15-2010 6:48 PM


Re: Some Evidence Starters
That has not been verified because the Saudi's do no allow access to it by researchers. It must be understood that any research in the region is risky and dangerous, given the Muslim Saudis have no desire to support the Biblical record relative to anything supportive to Israel and Jews.
But the legend of Moses appears in the Quran. It is recounted at length in Sura 20, and again in Sura 26.
I'm sure any Muslim would love to have a scrap of a shred of evidence for the myth of Moses, because it's their myth as much as it is yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 03-15-2010 6:48 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 60 of 348 (550526)
03-16-2010 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Peg
03-15-2010 7:31 PM


Re: For the sake of sanity.
the only way they can be refuted is by sceptics claiming that it was written after the fact... or added in later
Remember the book of Daniel... oh yeah! That was a complete forgery written in the 1st century LOL
If the only way a prophecy can be disproved is by claiming that it was added in later, then i dont think your analysis passes the sniff test.
Yeah. For example, here's an excerpt from the Book of Dr Adequate, which, as you can see from the text, was written in 1990.
And behold, in this year that is called 1990, Dr Adequate spake saying: Truly, I say unto you, in the reign of Bush who is son of Bush, even in the year 2001, in the month of September, then shall al-Qaeda smite at the Towers that are called Twin, and great shall be the lamentation of the people.
Now, one of those silly skeptics would say that there's no evidence that the Book of Dr Adequate was composed in 1990, and that this fact suggests that what we have here is a case of vaticinia ex eventu.
You, on the other hand, know that that's no refutation of my self-proclaimed magical powers, and are therefore compelled to believe that I am a bona fide prophet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Peg, posted 03-15-2010 7:31 PM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Coyote, posted 03-16-2010 1:30 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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