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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Biblical Record
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 76 of 348 (550583)
03-16-2010 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by PaulK
03-16-2010 1:46 PM


Re: Incessantly Denying The Evidence
According to the chart posted by Lysimachus in the previous discussion the sea ISN'T particularly shallow there.
Could you give the link to this? I am going to download some maps of the gulf of aqaba as soon as I remember my PayPal password.
Edited by Theodoric, : db codes

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 77 of 348 (550585)
03-16-2010 2:49 PM


More on Gulf of Aqaba
It reaches a maximum depth of 1850m in its central basin (the Gulf of Suez is significantly wider but less than 100m deep).
It reaches a maximum depth of 1850m in its central basin (the Gulf of Suez is significantly wider but less than 100m deep).
Source
The map I am looking at shows a depth of over 545 m(1788 ft to us americans) off the coast of Nuweiba. There is nothing anywhere about a land-bridge, except on the websites pushing this lunacy. None of them provide any evidence except their own assertions or the assertions of Wyatt.
Or are the Saudi's suppressing that information too?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 78 of 348 (550588)
03-16-2010 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Theodoric
03-16-2010 2:16 PM


Re: Incessantly Denying The Evidence
It was in one of the old threads here... It'll take a while to track it down.

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Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 79 of 348 (550589)
03-16-2010 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Buzsaw
03-16-2010 8:48 AM


Re: Ahem.
Hey Buz.
ZenMonkey can correct me if I'm wrong, but since he hasn't responded to your post, perhaps I can attempt to clarify his what I think his position may be.
I believe he's referring not to evidence (or lack thereof) for the actual Red Sea crossing, but for evidence (or lack thereof) for a large number of Hebrews inhabiting what would be, for all intents and purposes, a large chunk of Egypt for 400-odd years. Should we not find some trinket, pottery, etc. unique to the ancient Israelites in some area of Egypt, if a unique people occupied a certain area for this long? Should there not be some record of this captivity in Egyptian records of the day? Should there not be some Egyptian cultural influence on the culture of their captives? Something? Anything?
I think he's drawing the parallel to what we should find (and do, in many cases) if a large group of non-native peoples (aka Norsemen) occupies an area not intrinsic to that people's culture.
Although up to the present no direct archaeological evidence has been found of Israel's sojourn in Egypt...
Sojourn
(In light of full disclosure, lest I'm accused of quotemining, the website goes on to discuss why, especially in the absence of such evidence, we must, therefore, believe the exodus is a factual event. )
Have a good one.
{abe: If my representation of ZenMonkey's innermost thoughts reveals my failures as a psychic, then I present this as my own original question. }
Edited by Apothecus, : psychic failings

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 80 of 348 (550591)
03-16-2010 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Theodoric
03-16-2010 2:49 PM


Re: More on Gulf of Aqaba
Looks like the one I was referring to has been deleted.
However discussion and other posts in the thread confirm a depth of 850m at the crossing point. For comparison the original claim was a depth of 100m (which appears to be the result of using an incomplete database (the "depth" was just a default value).
See Message 263 (Lysimachus is a Wyatt supporter as should be obvious)

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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 81 of 348 (550595)
03-16-2010 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by PaulK
03-16-2010 3:57 PM


Re: More on Gulf of Aqaba
Those maps looked familliar to me, so I searched the video again, and sure enough, there it was, the same map, used in the videa, showing the depth to be more then 800 metres! Cant' believe I missed that the first time!
Here's a screenshot I took, the numbers should be readable when you enlarge it (it's taken at a very high resolution ) (I put in the name "NUWEIBA", to make it more clear):
Damn, these guys are stupid!

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 348 (550604)
03-16-2010 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Apothecus
03-16-2010 3:21 PM


Re: Jews In Egypt, Etc
Apothecus writes:
ZenMonkey can correct me if I'm wrong, but since he hasn't responded to your post, perhaps I can attempt to clarify his what I think his position may be.
I believe he's referring not to evidence (or lack thereof) for the actual Red Sea crossing, but for evidence (or lack thereof) for a large number of Hebrews inhabiting what would be, for all intents and purposes, a large chunk of Egypt for 400-odd years. Should we not find some trinket, pottery, etc. unique to the ancient Israelites in some area of Egypt, if a unique people occupied a certain area for this long? Should there not be some record of this captivity in Egyptian records of the day? Should there not be some Egyptian cultural influence on the culture of their captives? Something? Anything?
I think he's drawing the parallel to what we should find (and do, in many cases) if a large group of non-native peoples (aka Norsemen) occupies an area not intrinsic to that people's culture
Hi Apothecus. There has been a lot of debate as to who the Hyksos were and other stuff relative what you allude. I'm not sure anything conclusive can be claimed on that count. We do know that there was a significant number of aliens in Egypt. The question is who they were Again I go right back to the fact that the more corroborative evidence that can be cited, the more credible becomes the likelihood that the foreign constituency in Egypt were the Jews.
The Jews came from some location. Why not Egypt? There's no other viable option, so far as I'm aware. They surely didn't disembark from an alien space craft into Caanan as an army capable of defeating a number of pagan kingdoms.
My main purpose here is to cite what evidence corroborates the Biblical account. Imo, it's siginificant. Each must decide for themselves as to their evaluation of the evidence cited.
I want to soon elaborate more on the Ezekiel and Zechariah
prophecies relative to the present occupation of Jews in their land after all of these centuries in dispersement. See, as for the reliability of the Biblical record, there's a whole lot of various corroborating stuff. It's not just the Exodus. The more aggregate stuff you collect, the more each lends corroborative support to the other and to the Biblical record as a whole.
Imo, it's outright disengenuous for secular humanists here at EvC to keep on keeping on alleging that there's no scientific evidence for the Biblical record. That's just not the case and I hope to cite more of it before this thread is finished.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 83 of 348 (550605)
03-16-2010 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Theodoric
03-15-2010 10:11 PM


Re: Some comments on the use of gold as an anti-foulant
Hi Theodoric, just a comment:
And what the hell is this idea that coral will not grow on gold?
Heavy metals work as anti-foulants, due to heavy metal poisoning of the organisms that try to eat into the surface. This is why warships used to be plated in copper.
Google {copper antifoulant} and
Biofouling - Wikipedia
The effect of heavy metals on organisms that just bond to a surface and then use that as an anchor to filter passing sea water - like barnacles and corals - is not as great, as they are only affected by secondary source of the metal - eating organisms that eat at the surfaces or that absorb the metal that is gradually dispersed into the water.
If gold had worked better than copper it would have been used and it would have been noted. Certainly a thousand years of preservation with one thin coating would be cost effective compared to frequent re-coatings with copper, and all the other materials that have been tried by all the navies in the world.
The cost difference between operating a vessel with a clean bottom and one with a foul bottom is noticeable after only one year of growth, and this alone would make god a cost saving measure if it worked as well as it would have to for these wheels to be coral (and other growth) free.
Gold does not work any better than copper as an anti-foulant,
Copper coatings need to be renewed every 2 to 3 years.
In other words, it's bunk.
Wyatt is known for faking evidence, so if all you have is a photo from Wyatt, you don't really have anything credible at all.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 348 (550608)
03-16-2010 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Huntard
03-16-2010 4:33 PM


Re: More on Gulf of Aqaba
Huntard writes:
Damn, these guys are stupid!
We all know what a mighty force of rushing water can do, don't we? Think of the enormity of the return. . We don't know whether there was an equal volumn on the North as on the South, or just how this all happened. At any rate, it would likely be the force of a great back and forth tsunami, especially if one side returned first and the other overlapped it. Likely there was extensive erosion, particularly in the middle deeper area. This plus possible earth quakes at some time, shipping and currents may have changed the topography of the sandbar area of the Gulf from what it was millenniums ago when the alleged Exodus took place.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 348 (550609)
03-16-2010 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by RAZD
03-16-2010 5:11 PM


Re: Some comments on the use of gold as an anti-foulant
If (I say if) there was a gold gilted one, perhaps it would have been from Pharoah's royal chariot. If there was indeed one, perhaps some diver since, having wind of it, has removed and scrapped it for it's value as they might be in legal trouble if they announced it's removal.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 86 of 348 (550611)
03-16-2010 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Buzsaw
03-16-2010 6:13 PM


Re: More on Gulf of Aqaba
So when you said:
the relatively shallow area of the sea in which they were sited,
were you ignorant or lying?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 87 of 348 (550612)
03-16-2010 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Buzsaw
03-16-2010 6:27 PM


All you have are ifs and maybes
When are you going to realize(or admit) that ifs and maybes are not evidence? They are conjectures, nothing else. You give us all these assertions by people that have been shown to be liars and frauds, and now you say if and maybe.
Why don't you just cut your losses and admit there is NO evidence for this scenario?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 88 of 348 (550613)
03-16-2010 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Buzsaw
03-16-2010 6:27 PM


Re: Some comments on the use of gold as an anti-foulant
The problem here, Buz, is that you aren;t presenting evidence that supports a given conclusion.
You're speculating on possibilities that may allow your version of events to match with reality.
This is apologetics. You ignore the facts or missing pieces in your story, and speculate at "possibilities" to twist what is observed.
Evidence of the Exodus would include signs in Egypt of a population and separate culture numbering in the millions living as a subservient working class for several hundred years. You would expect to see some writings (Egyptian or otherwise); some pottery of Abrahamic design; anything at all of Hebrew culture existing in Egypt. You would expect to see records of a mass Exodus.
We're talking about an event more significant than every slave in teh American South leaving the plantations, the Confederate Army chasing them with the Confederate President at the head, and a massive hurricane killing the Confederates while all the former slaves escape unscathed, followed by forty years spent wandering an area smaller than the American South. Can you imagine the ramifications of that? The written history? The archeology of the camp sites used during forty years of wandering by a population numbering in the millions? The ramifications of losing a head of state and a large segment of the military to a natural disaster?
Evidence is not "maybe x cause the y to look that way..." or "maybe this barely recognizable artifact is one of the chariot wheels," even though one would expect to find many such wheels, and there is no corroborative evidence that would lead one to identify a simple underwater wheel as specifically a wheel from an Egyptian chariot involved in teh Exodus of the Bible.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 89 of 348 (550616)
03-16-2010 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Buzsaw
03-16-2010 5:00 PM


Re: Jews In Egypt, Etc
quote:
There has been a lot of debate as to who the Hyksos were and other stuff relative what you allude. I'm not sure anything conclusive can be claimed on that count.
One thing we can be certain of, the Hyksos do not fit the story of Exodus. They ruled the delta region until they were driven out by the 18th Dynasty (and Wyatt and Moller place the Exodus after then.)
quote:
The Jews came from some location. Why not Egypt? There's no other viable option, so far as I'm aware.
The archaeologists generally regard the Israelites as originating in Canaan. That seems to be a perfectly viable option (and more likely than Egypt, given the massive lack of evidence).

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 348 (550633)
03-16-2010 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Theodoric
03-16-2010 6:43 PM


Re: All you have are ifs and maybes
Theodoric writes:
When are you going to realize(or admit) that ifs and maybes are not evidence? They are conjectures, nothing else. You give us all these assertions by people that have been shown to be liars and frauds, and now you say if and maybe.
If I'm not sure about a questionable aspect, I use those terms. Some things are that way. Relative to some evidences like regathered Israel and some of the corroborative evidences relative to the Exodus I don't use those terms. Some things are valid evidence and others are maybes, just as it is with QM, String, evolution and BB theory.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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