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Member (Idle past 1691 days) Posts: 53 From: Reno, Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Foul Tasting Bugs | |||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
hi Wounded King and Mr. Jack,
Message 3: Kin selection.
Message 4: The most obvious explanation, and one that Fisher came up with in the 30s, is that it is propagated through a form of kin selection. While as you say the bug which gets eaten doesn't get any benefit from its being eaten the other bugs in the area do. If we assume that the other bugs in the area are likely to be closely related to the eaten bug, and therefore more likely to share the same genes for noxious taste, then the protection from its noxious taste enhances the survival of those related bugs relative to other unrelated bugs in different regions. What we see is a mutation that makes a bug taste less palatable for predation. Initially this type of mutation is neutral, as there is no way for predator/s to distinguish the palatable from the less palatable bugs, and so many such mutations can spread by neutral drift within a population. As the mutation/s becomes more predominant within a sub-population (or in the whole population) then we can see a response to the taste in bug selection by the predator/s and subsequent selection for the populations of bugs with less paletable taste, allowing the less palatable taste to become predominant and even reinforced by later mutations for even less palatability. We are seeing more and more instances of mutations that are initially neutral being spread by neutral drift, and then becoming subject to selection, and this could easily be a similar situation. Another group of organisms that exhibit this noxious taste ability are the poison dart frogs of south america.
quote: As far as I know, these frogs do not use their toxins to poison prey (the way some snakes and lizards do), and that it is only defensive. We can also discuss the evolution of color in such populations, once selection pressure for any camouflage or blending into the background to reduce predation has been removed, but that's getting off topic. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
hi again InGodITrust,
Like with many other aspect of evolution, this gets so complicated it is mind-boggling (for me anyway). One thing to remember is that evolution occurs in populations, not in individuals. Evolution is the change in frequency of hereditary traits in breeding populations from generation to generation in response to ecological opportunities. Once bad taste spreads in a population, then selection can operate on that population compared to other populations of bugs without the noxious taste, thus giving the population with some noxious tasting bugs an advantage, allowing the noxious taste to spread further within the population. Initially such a mutation would be neutral to selection pressure, and thus subject to neutral drift and stochastic processes. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi again InGodITrust,
Mr. Jack, Wounded King and others have responded--without reservation--that kin selection is responsible ... I find the concept of bugs having an awareness of kin to be somewhat problematical, and to me kin selection only works when one is aware of kinship at some level.
And kin selection is a form of natural selection. Correct, the action of the one benefits the survival or reproduction of their kin.
But RAZD, you have the answer with the "neutral mutation." Neutral mutations can be used to fill in a lot of blanks, I would guess-- kind of a get-out-of-jail-free card. It doesn't seem to me that the spread of neutral mutations, in this case, can be considered natural selection. It is chance. There are often disagreements when information is incomplete and conclusions are tentative - as is the case with much of science. Don't ask for absolute answers, as they are not the purview of science, rather they are the purview of people who think they know absolute truth/s. Yes it is chance, a stochastic effect, that any mutation happens. One thing to keep in mind is that not all mutations are subject to selection when they occur. They can become beneficial or detrimental at a later date, either in conjunction with a later mutation or a change in the ecological opportunities. In one experiment it was determined that a neutral mutation enabled a later mutation to be beneficial. Most mutations are neutral - they don't affect the selection of the phenotype either by reproduction or by survival - but they do add to the variety of the population to enable it to be more flexible in later responses to ecological changes.
If the foul taste came about de novo incrementally, or if it existed for another purpose but was later refined for defense, it still seems that if neutral mutations were involved, the taste would be a result of chance more than natural selection. Natural selection has nothing to do with the appearance of the foul taste, or any other mutation, just with the effect on survival or breeding afterward, it is a response mechanism. The taste would be due to the chemical makeup of various proteins, and could be due to a combination of several proteins, as what is being tasted is the "recipe" of the bug, not the individual molecules. So yes, it could build up over time in several layers of mutations.
To simplify the matter, I first thought of a population of bugs that tasted okay. Then one individual bug in that population turns up with a genetic mutation that gave it all-out horrible taste, that a predator would reject. This is unrealistic, because the development of the foul taste would probably come in increments, rather that all at once. If the predator spit the bug out and it survived to breed, then natural selection has occurred, and the beneficial foul taste gets passed on. If the bug dies then it depends on the other bugs carrying the same mutation to spread it through neutral drift until selection on the population occurs. Some molecules can have a significantly different taste with only one molecule change, urea for example. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Wounded King, I considered that.
I'm not sure what you think is the difference between your answer and ours, you have just swapped 'sub-population' in to represent the population of more closely related organisms, but the chances are that the sub-populations where these traits are prevalent will be more closely related individuals since we know that many of them at least share the trait for unpalatability and individuals within the same area are also normally more likely to be related. Agreed, however I think applying kin selection to bugs is diluting the concept of organisms acting intentionally to benefit siblings, aunts, uncles, parents, and cousins. I don't see bugs as being aware of kinship, nor do I see this selection as being based on the actions of any one bug to benefit another.
The isssue is why does a trait prevail when it doesn't directly benefit the individual exhibiting that trait, the answer is kin selection. If you want to claim that none of the individuals exhibiting the same trait in the sub-population are related, or that they are generally no more related than with individuals of another sub population, then I think you will have a hard row to hoe. Genetic drift of neutral mutations is a more general pattern than kin selection, and fits this situation better, imho. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Mr jack
Kin Selection does not require any awareness of kin/non-kin only that the feature selected increases the survival probability of other carriers of the gene. Then you have watered kin selection down to common ancestry, an already adequate explanation for the transmission of genes from parents to offspring where there is no action taken by, or any different behavior of, any of the carriers to enhance the survival or breeding of their kin other than surviving and breeding. With this definition of kin selection there is no point in saying kin selection is a mechanism. For me, kin selection is an active behavior that benefits direct kin, such as nit-picking on siblings, mates and other family members in primates. Your definition makes no distinction between this and doing nothing, a distinct loss in descriptive ability.
Message 26: Genetic drift of neutral mutations is a more general pattern than kin selection, and fits this situation better, imho.
Wait, what? Are you suggesting that the explaination for foul tasting insects is genetic drift? That this feature is not adaptive? Initially - and the topic issue is initially, not a fully developed trait - it is not adaptive if the bug in question is killed while other similar looking bugs do not have a foul taste. For the foul tasting to spread wide enough in the population when all predation is lethal with no feed-back, genetic drift within the population is the only way the mutation spreads. If 10% of the population is subject to predation and there is no statistical difference between death to the initial foul bugs compared to the non-foul tasting bugs, then there is no selection. It is only when the proportion of foul-tasting bugs within the population increases to the point where the predator associates the foul taste with enough members of the population that they are reluctant to attack the bugs that selection begins to take effect. Genetic drift gets you to that point. Kin selection doesn't, nor does kin selection explain that at that point all members of the population benefit, fellow foul-tasting kin or not. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : clrty in last we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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