Evidence for the Biblical Record

And given the thousands of chariots and tens of thousands of soldiers that Pharaoh sent after the Israelites (they weren't Jews until after the founding of Judea) who were all drowned in the sea, there should be heaps and piles of chariot wheels, cabs, axles, reins, swords, armor, and tons of other military gear, not just "the few questionable ones claimed". By your very own criterion for credibility, Buz, where's the evidence of heaps and piles of this stuff?

Are you saying that there are other areas of the Red Sea that are as shallow as the Nuweiba site from one side to the other besides the ends, Doc?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

New photos recently discovered in Ron Wyatt's archives confirm his discovery of the Pharaoh's chariots during his diving expedition to the bottom of the Red Sea!Two of these photos are shown here: and Ron's notes accompanying these amazing photos state that the imprint of the pharaohs cartouche is clearly visible on the seat of one of these chariots. However, the notes are a little waterlogged and difficult to decipher, and they may say that the imprint of the pharaoh's caboose is clearly visible. According to the notes, a papyrus found with the chariots refers to the pharaoh as Ramses. But, again the notes are a little obscure and may be saying that the pharaoh is referred to as a ram's ass.A newspaper (or newspapyrus, actually) found with the chariots has the date 27 June, 1252 BCE clearly visible on its front page, definitively establishing the date of the exodus. This came as a great surprise to many scholars who had believed that the Gregorian calendar was not adopted in Egypt until the late 21st dynasty.This discovery casts all of Ron's heretofore controversial work in a new light. We all deeply regret that Ron did not live to see his life's labors vindicated and to enjoy the accolades now to be heaped upon him.Regards, AnInGe-----------------------------Behind ever great man is a great man's behind.

According to the map I have, there are. But whether we are talking 800m or 500m, neither can be called shallow.Also, no where in the gulf is there a gentle slope to the bottom of the gulf.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

And given the thousands of chariots and tens of thousands of soldiers that Pharaoh sent after the Israelites (they weren't Jews until after the founding of Judea) who were all drowned in the sea, there should be heaps and piles of chariot wheels, cabs, axles, reins, swords, armor, and tons of other military gear, not just "the few questionable ones claimed". By your very own criterion for credibility, Buz, where's the evidence of heaps and piles of this stuff?I may be mistaken but I don't think there were thousands of chariots. Most of it would have been buried, rotted or swept into deeper waters. It would be nice if undersea excavation were allowed, but it's a major shipping lane. No doubt there would be an abundance of evidence. I believe the one's photographed were in the more relative shallow water nearer to the shores

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

I said relatively shallow. Do you know what that means, Theodoric? Look it up.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

So since I live in Wisconsin, you would say I live close New York City.
Well relative to London at least.You really are not going to let any facts intrude into your beliefs are you."Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up"It may be good for you to at least entertain the fact that some of the things you think are true are not. There are people that know more than you. As I can see a lot of people.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Hey there, Buz. So what, a few hundred then? Up to a thousand?What you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) in this latest "perhaps" of yours is that Egypt sent a modest military force in pursuit of a group of people numbering in the millions? I'll allow that men of fighting age would maybe have accounted for 1/4 of this total, and that they (I'm being generous to you here, Buz) were possibly armed with little more than clubs.You're saying that (I'm admittedly pulling these numbers out of my arse) 250,000 able bodied Isrealite men ... no, I'll even drop this to 100,000 able bodied Isrealite men just to keep you honest ... would have been pursued all the way from Egypt by some token Egyptian force who intended to ... what? It's not like there were WMDs back then, Buz (excluding magical floods, that is). Fighting was hand-to-hand. Do you really think a few hundred chariots could carry enough piercing weapons for this many Isrealites? Would not they have fought back, and with overwhelming numbers? Would not the well-trained Egyptian forces have recognized this?I realize you say "I may be mistaken, but..." but if by this you mean "I made this up sitting right here at my desk", I'm going to have to call bullshit on you, here.

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"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

Buzz, we've discussed this before. Before we even get to that hypothetical situation you need to demonstrate that gold has a remarkable anti-foulant property that is unknown in this day and age.We know that copper, tin and nickel are not sufficient to provide such a level of antifoulant protection for objects in marine environments, and there is absolutely no indication that gold is any different.First a little history on the effects Teredo Worms and the like:

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Shipworms are not worms at all, but rather a group of unusual saltwater clams with very small shells, notorious for boring into (and eventually destroying) wooden structures that are immersed in sea water, such as piers, docks and wooden ships. Sometimes called "termites of the sea", they are marine bivalve molluscs (Eulamellibranchiata) in the family Teredinidae, also often known as Teredo Worms.

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Shipworms greatly damage wooden hulls and marine piling, and have been the subject of much study to find methods to avoid their attacks. Copper sheathing was used on wooden ships during the Age of Exploration, as a method of preventing damage by "teredo worms". Christopher Columbus's ships were among the earliest known to employ this defence.[1]

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In the Netherlands the shipworm caused a crisis in the 18th century by attacking the timber that faced the sea dykes. After that the dykes had to be faced with stones. A genus of shipworm, Teredo, has recently caused several minor collapses along the Hudson River waterfront in Hoboken, New Jersey, due to damage of underwater pilings.[2]

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These organisms cause substantial damage in only a few years to any wood structure, and would have completely consumed any wood structure not buried in mud or silt in much less than ~2000 years. This is why only buried wooden structures of shipwrecks are found.When we look at the history of copper hull plating to reduce the effects of marine growth and damage to vessels in normal salt water environments, we see that there were several problems involved:

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Copper sheathing was the practice of protecting the under-water hull of a ship or boat through the use of copper plates affixed to the outside of the hull. It was pioneered and developed by the Royal Navy during the 18th century.

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Deterioration of the hull of a wooden ship was a significant problem during the Age of Sail. Several methods were developed for protecting it from attack by shipworm and the various marine weeds - all of which had some adverse effect on the ship, be it structurally, in the case of the worm, or speed and handling in the case of the weeds. The most common methods of dealing with these problems were through the use of wood sheathing, occasionally lead. Wood sheathing effectively provided a non-structural skin to the hull for the worm to attack, and could be easily replaced in dry dock at regular intervals. It did nothing to reduce the weed growths, however. Lead sheathing, whilst more effective than wood in its stated purpose, reacted badly with the iron bolts of the ships causing sometimes severe damage.

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... Britain was now expected to face her three greatest rivals, and coppering allowed the navy to keep at sea for much longer periods of time without the need for cleaning and repairs to the underwater hull, making it a very attractive, if expensive, proposition. ...

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Finally a suitable alloy for the hull bolts was found, that of copper and zinc. At great cost, the Admiralty decided in 1786 to go ahead with the re-bolting of every ship in the navy, thus finally eliminating the bolt corrosion problem. This process lasted several years, after which no significant changes to the coppering system were required, and copper plating remained the standard method of protecting a ship's underwater hull until the advent of modern anti-fouling paint.

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Even with the copper plates, the need to clean and scrape the bottoms was not eliminated, just that it took a little longer for the growth to reach the same level as occurs on hulls without plating. The same is true for anti-fouling paints used today and their development.Please do not confuse galvanic corrosion susceptibility with anti-fouling effects - all the anodic index indicates is the relative likelihood that the metal in question will dissolve when in connection with other metal objects. Gold, silver, nickle, brasses, bronzes and tin are at the low end of the anodic index, iron and steels are in the middle, while aluminum, magnesium and zinc are at the top end (and hence are used for anodes to protect steel from galvanic corrosion and why you shouldn't leave a copper penny in the bilge of an aluminum vessel). What galvanic corrosion ensures is that if there were any other metals involved that they would have dissolved when in contact with gold in any form in seawater. This is why the Royal Navy had problems with fastening the copper plates to the hulls - it resulted in the galvanic corrosion of the hull bolts and subsequent structural failure. Gold is the most active anode, ensuring that every other metal in contact with it would corrode over time.This rules out metal wheels covered in gold plate.When we look at the development of anti fouling paints we see that heavy metals have been used:

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Anti-fouling paint or bottom paint is a specialized covering applied to the hull of a boat, designed to slow the growth of organisms that would attach to the hull and affect performance and durability. Other types of coatings can act as a barrier against corrosion on metal hulls, or improve water flow past the hull of a high-performance racing yacht.

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In the days of the clipper ships, sailing vessels suffered severely from the growth of barnacles and weed on the hull which, left unchecked, reduced the maximum speed of the ship and also its ability to sail upwind -- both of which affected profitability. Thin copper sheets were nailed onto the hull in an attempt to prevent this. A visible example of this may be seen on the clipper Cutty Sark preserved as a museum ship in dry-dock at Greenwich in England.

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In modern times, paints are formulated with toxic copper, organotin compounds or other special chemistry which impede growth of barnacles, algae, and other such organisms. Since such a barrier ablates slowly, it must be renewed periodically.

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Gold, gold particles and gold compounds are not, and have not been, used. When it comes to toxicity, we know that contact with gold jewelery is not particularly toxic, even when kept in close contact with human skin for many years on end (wedding rings), even though the gold there is usually in a compound with other metals, but that when combined with nickel (some "white gold" compounds) that toxic effects due to the nickel content can be noticed.This rules out wooden wheels covered in gold plate preventing the consumption of wood by marine organisms (see Teredo Worms above).Marine growth like coral, barnacles and the like, can attach to any smooth surface as they excrete compounds that glue the shells etc to the surface while they feed on the passing sea water. Without a highly toxic surface, growth occurs, even on copper and nickel surfaces, which are much more toxic than gold.This rules out the complete absence of marine growth on the surfaces of wheels. When we look at the process of gilding, there is even less likelihood of the surface surviving intact in their original geometry:Gilding - Wikipedia

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"Overlaying" or folding or hammering on gold foil or gold leaf is the simplest and most ancient method, and is mentioned in Homer's Odyssey (Bk vi, 232)[2], and the Old Testament. The Ram in a Thicket of about 2600-2400 BC from Ur uses this technique on wood, with a thin layer of bitumen underneath to help adhesion.

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The next advances involved two simple processes. The first involves gold leaf, which is gold that is hammered or cut into very thin sheets. Gold leaf is often thinner than standard paper today, and when held to the light is semi-transparent; in ancient times it was typically about 10 times thicker than today, and perhaps half that in the Middle Ages. The object being gilded was coated with adhesive, usually gesso. "Gesso" is a tacky substance made of finely ground gypsum or chalk mixed with glue. Once the coating of gesso had been applied, the gold leaf was layered on and left to dry. A second gilding process was using the gold as pigment in paint. The artist ground the gold into a fine powder and mixed it with a bindery. Then the gold was applied as with any paint. Sometimes, after either gold-leafing or gold-painting, the artist would heat the piece enough to melt the gold slightly, ensuring an even coat. These techniques remained the only alternative for materials like wood, leather, and the vellum pages of illuminated manuscripts.

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If all you are left with, is a thin layer of gilt paint or gold leaf, there is no structure to maintain shape, even against mild daily tidal currents. Wood or steel substrates would have corroded or been consumed with nothing to protect them from the elements and the organisms.In a nutshell, bright gleaming gold covered intact appearing wheels lying on the sea bottom without any marine growth are highly extremely UNlikely to survive 100 years, to say nothing of over 2000 years, without a miracle to subvert natural processes.On the other hand, bright gleaming gold covered intact appearing wheels lying on the sea bottom without any marine growth are highly extremely likely to be part of a scam, a hoax, a fraud, hoping to delude gullible people.Enjoy.

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Liar, liar, pants afire.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

The topic title calls for evidence, Apothecus. Do what you want with the evidence which I've cited. We could debate the unknowns till the cows come home, just as with the alleged singularity of the BB, abiogenesis and that stuff.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

I understand what you're saying here, Razd. I forgot what Moller's position was on this matter.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

That's the thing - even if we give them a free pass on the lack of all the other evidence (and buz, no - a story is not evidence. They found Troy, but NOT because of the Iliad), there's still the burning question of how the entire slave race (that supposedly did EVERYTHING from building work to planting crops) could up and disappear, decimating the workforce, have a large part of the extant population killed outright, the rest starved to death, the army shattered and have nobody notice.Look what happened in New Orleans, and now imagine that this happened EVERYWHERE in the united states, and that all the blue-collar workers vanished.Now, do you think that the USA wouldn't even blink?

Guess, I'll have to ask again, hopefully not in vain this time. Do you have any evidence for this? Where are the tests run to show this happens?

But that's just it Buz. You haven't cited any evidence! You have cited a route you say they took, but didn;t provide any evidence they took it. You cited the video I watched and wrote that little piece about as evidence, but absolutely nothing in there was actually corroborated with any evidence at all.I guess I'll better make this very clear: Where is the evidence? Why do you keep bringing this up? It has nothing to do with the topic.