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Member (Idle past 4532 days) Posts: 428 From: Portland, OR USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Evidence for the Biblical Record | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
lyx2no Member (Idle past 4737 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined:
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Claim: All living things evolved from one organism. As you use this as an argument for balanced treatment of the evidence I'll demolish it for you. This is a straw man: there is no claim that all living things evolved from one organism. It is a well supported speculation. Claims and speculations are different matters. The speculation could also be described as a prediction of evolution, though not a necessary one. Before the discovery of DNA and radioisotope dating the speculation was supported by an understanding of the mechanics of evolution, geological superposition and observations of the fossil record. Survival of the fittest, though not an absolute, tends to drive less able forms into extinction. If there were dozens, thousands or billions of methods of protolife those methods most efficient at gathering and utilizing the limited resources would push out those forms less able. It is not a reach to speculate that by the time protolife became life there wouldn't be a lot of competitors left standing, but it would be a long shot to call it a shoe in. Superposition is a reliable comparator of relative age: lower layers are older layers. Events that leave a geologic record can be ordered in time. No anthropoids are found below a certain level. However, primates are. No primates are found below a certain level. However. mammals are. No mammals are found below a certain level. However, chordates are. No chordates are found below a certain level. However, metazoa are. No metazoa are found below a certain level, However eukarya are. No eukarya are found below a certain level. However, prokaryotes are. No prokaryotes are found below a certain level. However, protobionts are. Life seems to become more limited in types as we go back in time. With the discovery of radioisotope dating we confirmed superposition as if it needed it and extended it with absolute dating. Not only could we say this is older than that, but this is of this age and that is of that age to within a few percent. With the discovery of DNA there was a good chance that our speculation that life arose form a single original organism could easily have been shown to be wrong. But that didn't happen. Instead, The degree of certainty of the speculation was greatly heightened; almost assured. All life on Earth uses the same DNA or its simpler, near cousin RNA. The hard teased relationships between vitae were confirmed with comparative ease. Some details change, but the big picture stayed the same. No one is betting the farm that all life came from a single ancestor. Though that has more to do with its not being important enough to pin down yet. Evolution isn't reliant upon its answer, and abiogenesis is not far enough along in its studies to worry about it much. It only stands as a curiosity.
SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE! Why would you ask for the evidence for something that you've not the patients or care to sit through? I gave no evidence for any of the above. Its all a story. So what is the difference between my story and yours? My story was derived from the observations, and your observations were derived from the story. More then once you've been given the evidence for my story. Scratching a few names off the members list would suffice to tell you by whom. You don't care. You don't listen. As they painstakingly provide demonstrable detail after detail, you're developing worthless 'what ifs' instead. Here you've told a story. Now supply the evidence for any of it being true. That a coral superficially resembles a wheel is not evidence. Examine it and see if it is a wheel. Then if it's a 3000 year old wheel. That a dark rock superficially resembles burnt rock is not evidence. Examine it and see if it is burnt rock. Then if it's 3000 year old burnt rock. Now that you've done those things you've evidence that wheels were lost and rocks were burned 3,000 year ago. Now work on how and why. We have the patients and the desire to hear the evidence, Buz.
It is not time to move on. Moving on is why you haven't gotten the last bit right. You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3664 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
We have the patients And so, Dr Lyx2no, what do you intend to do with the patients now that you have them? Come, come, I haven't the patience to sit here all day waiting for you to answer...
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Peg writes: i think you are taking it a bit far to say that prophecy in Rev is refering to televisions I can see why you might put it to television, but i dont believe that's got anythign to do with televisions. OK Peg, since you too are a skeptic on this one I see I need to corroborate up some support for this prophetic techy stuff. We now go to the same book, Revelation, three chapters ahead to 13. Here we see this same terminology. This ten horned beast we read about depicts 10 kings who rule as kings in the latter days before Armageddon. We know that the ten horns of the beast are ten rulers because they are interpreted in chapter 17 as such where this same 10 horned beast is further described. This is the final world class empire before Armageddon. What does the text say about this beast global empire? 1) verses 3. 4:
and the whole earth wondered after the beast; 4 and they worshipped the dragon, because he gave his authority unto the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? The whole world wonders after and worships the beast. 2) Verse 4:
and the dragon gave him his power, and his throne, and great authority. The beast gets it's power from the dragon which, according to the previous chapter (12) is Satan 3. Verses 7, 8:
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and there was given to him authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.
NOTE the same terminology, "tribe people, tongue and nation" worships the beast. Next we learn how this will be enforced. Now we come to the really interesting and phenomenal part of this great prophecy: A 2nd beast having 2 horns appears who exercises all of the power of the empire beast. This guy fits all of requirements of the anti-christ who is allied with the beast. This guy will likely be the Secretary General type of the UN world body, wether it be that arrangement or some rendition of what it is.What does this one who operates on behalf of the global empire do? (Btw, likely his two horns depict (A) his religious nature ("poses as a lamb") and (B) political authority of the empire ("speaks like a dragon"). 1) Verse 12:
And he maketh the earth and them dwell therein to worship the first beast, He is the one who enforces worshp to the global emire beast. 2) Verses 14, 15:
14 And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by reason of the signs which it was given him to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast who hath the stroke of the sword and lived. 15 And it was given unto him to give breath to it, even to the image to the breast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as should not worship the image of the beast should be killed. Here it is, Peg, et al. Read carefully and thoughtfully. The empire has made/manufactured/built (whatever terminology you want to use) a speaking image which all of the nations tribes and tongues are forced to worship or be killed. Now put on your thinking caps on, class, and tell me how the government could enforce all of the nations tribes and tongues and tongues to worship a speaking image? 3) CLUE: Verse 16, 17:
16 And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead; 17 and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his name. There you have your corrobrating support, my friends, Peg, et al, for this terminology every tribe tongue and nation being global and the techy support of the speaking image, your TV and your up and coming global monetary system of marks and numbers which is emerging on our planet as we type. This is modern techy, forknown by Jehovah, god of the Bible which he inspired via his Holy Spirit, prophets (John in particular here) to write in order that when the time came we, on the planet may give Jehovah and Jesus his son glory, honor and praise and that we may interpret the past, understand the present and know what lies ahead. Revelation chapter 11 American Standard Version (ASV)
1 and he stood upon the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns, and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as though it had been smitten unto death; and his death-stroke was healed: and the whole earth wondered after the beast; 4 and they worshipped the dragon, because he gave his authority unto the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? And who is able to war with him? 5 and there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and there was given to him authority to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth for blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, even them that dwell in the heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and there was given to him authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. 9 If any man hath an ear, let him hear. 10 If any man is for captivity, into captivity he goeth: if any man shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 11 And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like unto lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the authority of the first beast in his sight. And he maketh the earth and them dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose death-stroke was healed. 13 And he doeth great signs, that he should even make fire to come down out of heaven upon the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by reason of the signs which it was given him to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast who hath the stroke of the sword and lived. 15 And it was given unto him to give breath to it, even to the image to the breast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as should not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead; 17 and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast; for it is the number of a man: and his number is Six hundred and sixty and six. It's important to understand the above relative to the global Islamic phenomena emerging rapidly. Mohammed who wrote the Quran & his successor apostles who wrote the Sunnahs and Haddith, regarded by Islam equal to the Quran, advocated global Jehadist global fatah, if you wll, which demands that Islam was/is to become the global religion submitting (meaning of Islam) nation, tribe and tongue to Islam. It is significant, relative to the above prophecy that this emerging global empire will be religious requiring every tribe, tongue and nation to worship a speaking image. Go, figure, my friends. We have this phenomenal global upsurging religon, Islam which requires five times daily prayer at a time when all of the other corroborating end time prophecies are coming into fruition,Simultaneous to the Islamic global socialistic revolution if you will we just happen to have this speaking image which can be placed in mosques, homes, factories, farms, etc, which have two way in/out capability to monitor every nation, tribe and tongue so as to enforce mandatory worship to the Islamic god, Allah. Simultaneously to the above, the most powerful nation on the planet, having the most powerful military now has a stealth Islamic born and Islamic upreared president who, according to Islamic law, is officially a Muslim who advocates a socialist and global agenda, undermining our traditional nationalist spirit. It is a fact that the UN global body has increasingly favored Islamic block nations and undermined Islams enemies, Israel and the US in spite of the fact that the US is it's biggest contributer. Anyhow, supportive techy prophecies and food for thought. Buz prophecy: Oct, 2007 when it appeared Hillary was it for the Dems, according to the pundants: Obama will likely become president. Result: fulfilled. Buz prophecy: Mar 17, 2010: Globalistic minded President Obama will become Secretary General of the UN, will unite the nations, will effect a peace treaty between Israel and the Palestinians, favorable to the Palestinians who will get East Jerusalem, particularly the Temple Mount, will undermine the soverignty of the US by tanking the US $$ and expanding a socialistic agenda. A Russian, Eastern Europe and Islamic block coalition of nations will emerge on the global scene as the major world powers as US pre-eminence wanes. We'll see. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
I guess if you use the word "corroborating" enough, something you say must be evidence.....
I'm disappointed, Buz. You have spoken so highly of this hard evidence you have for the biblical record. I was really looking forward to hearing something worthwhile that would make me think a bit. However, all you put forth is trite garbage and fear-mongering. hint: conspiracy theories are not evidence for anything. Stick to the faith and belief section, Buz. "Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Lyx2no writes: I gave no evidence for any of the above. Its all a story. So what is the difference between my story and yours? My story was derived from the observations, and your observations were derived from the story. Youngun, the story was only the hypothesis of mine. Observations were the corroborating evidence. (You ommited some of them in your rebuttal; better go back and assimilate the others). You say yours was derived from the observations. Tell me, what did the 2nd organism look like? the third? the fourth?.........the 100th?, the 1000th? the ........the.......the......the.......the first living land crawler? the first macro evolved specie eminating from it, etc,? Who observed them? Where's the evidence BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
In the words of Monty Python
You Sir are a loony. You still don't understand that tricky word do you. Evidence. Maybe you should look it up. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Stick to the faith and belief section, Buz. Any thoughts about the techy evidence, Hooah? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Any thoughts about the techy evidence, Hooah? Techy? What? My thought is that you are making shit up and refusing to stick the guidelines laid out in the OP. Like I said, a conspiracy theory is not evidence "Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Theodoric writes: In the words of Monty PythonYou Sir are a loony. Anything specific relative to the evidence cited, Theodoric? What about the prophecy concerning global mark/number monetary techy? Think it was feasable 1900 years ago? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
hooah writes: Techy? What? My thought is that you are making shit up and refusing to stick the guidelines laid out in the OP. Like I said, a conspiracy theory is not evidence Anything specific relative to the evidence cited, Hooah? What about the prophecy concerning global mark/number monetary techy? Think it was feasable 1900 years ago? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 3193 Joined:
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ZenMonkey in his OP writes: To my mind, corroborating evidence is a set of data that is both independently derived and that also substantially supports the validity of a certain factual claim. ZenMonkey in his OP writes: So I'd like some specifics. What factual claims are being made about the Bible for which someone has independent evidence that isn't trivial? There is Zen in his OP. This is the sort of evidence being requested of you. Stop posting conspiracy theories about marks of the beast or monetary whatever and get on with hard factual concrete evidence. If you've none, admit it. If you have some, SHOW IT. "Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Buzsaw writes: Here it is, Peg, et al. Read carefully and thoughtfully. The empire has made/manufactured/built (whatever terminology you want to use) a speaking image which all of the nations tribes and tongues are forced to worship or be killed. Now put on your thinking caps on, class, and tell me how the government could enforce all of the nations tribes and tongues and tongues to worship a speaking image? The image could actually be a world wide political organization....one that is represented by every nation. If you think back to Daniels prophecy, which is similar in terms of wild beasts being mentioned, you'll see that the angel tells Daniel that the beasts represented political figures. Alexander the Great was the hairy he goat and the 2 horned ram was the empires of Mede's and Persians (a dual empire) Why would revelations beasts be any different to political entities?
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lyx2no Member (Idle past 4737 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: |
Ewe bee gneiss. Yore rood lessen greaves mi sow. Knot won thyme butt to dew aye heir wen righting patience. Aisle shirley ad know moor.
Edited by lyx2no, : Ad moor. Edited by lyx2no, : Won moor. You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
If you think back to Daniels prophecy, which is similar in terms of wild beasts being mentioned, you'll see that the angel tells Daniel that the beasts represented political figures. Alexander the Great was the hairy he goat and the 2 horned ram was the empires of Mede's and Persians (a dual empire) Hi Peg. There are three prophetic scriptures in the Bible which depict this one and the same global end time prophecy, i.e. the 10 horned beast; Daniel 7, Revelation 13 and Revelation 17, 18. These are clearly one and the same beast, i.e. the end time global empire. You read in both Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 that this empire persecutes the saints of God who are his following believers. If you glean all of the info derived from these three scriptures, you get a pretty good handle on understanding this empire. Don't forget, that Daniel was told in Daniel 12:9 that the prophecy would be sealed up until the end times. Lo and behold, centuries later, the NT prophet John's revelation is a sealed up book which Jesus, the sacrificial lamb unseals in Revelation 5; the first few verses and consequently more info emerges relative to the beast in question and other end time mysteries which were sealed from Daniel and from the ancients. Now, in our times, when all of those end time prophecies begin to come in focus we moderns who are well advanced into the Industrial Revolution beginning a couple of centuries or so ago, begin to have the capability to understand some of the terminology of things like mark/number monetary stuff, globally viewed speaking images, enforcement of certain requirements to all nations and all of that which the prophets who spoke and wrote them likely had no clue as to why such inspiration termnilogy was given them to write. Some had visions of things to come which likely astounded them. You can in no way logically try to apply much of this that Revelation or even Daniel alluded to to ancient times. Much of it which I've cited was no way feasable for ancients. Horse and wagon/buggy/chariot and sail ship travel, oil lighting and word of mouth communication was it for all of human history until the Industrial Revolution which was the early beginning of what could be considered the last days. As per your message, I'll ask you; what's your thoughts relative to the 10 horned beast implenting marks and numbers for a global monetary system to be globally enforced? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
I prefer to stay on topic myself.
You might want to give it a try sometime. I realize that would go against everything you have done in the past, but it works for the rest of us. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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