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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Biblical Record
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4510 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 136 of 348 (550764)
03-18-2010 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by hooah212002
03-17-2010 11:03 PM


Exactly.
hooah writes:
There is Zen in his OP. This is the sort of evidence being requested of you. Stop posting conspiracy theories about marks of the beast or monetary whatever and get on with hard factual concrete evidence. If you've none, admit it. If you have some, SHOW IT.
Thanks, hooah. I've been meaning to jump back in and try to put this train back on its tracks.
Buz, I really admire how well you've been holding up with so many replies to deal with. Nevertheless, knock it off with the digressions into prophecy. That's is not what this thread is about. Prophecies are not factual, historical events. They cannot be fact-checked. They're poetry - maybe divinely inspired poetry, but poetry nonetheless.You can't fact-check T.S. Elliot's Four Quartets either. All you can do is offer a personal interpretation of its meaning. Same with Revelation.
This thread is about evidence that supports claims of Biblical accuracy. You have often claimed to have such evidence, and I wanted to see what it was. Look at the definition I offered again:
quote:
To my mind, corroborating evidence is a set of data that is both independently derived and that also substantially supports the validity of a certain factual claim.
So you need data. Not assumptions. Not speculation. Verifiable data that supports the substance of your claim.
Maybe this will help. As I see it, there are four types of evidence, four ways in which evidence can either support or weaken a claim.
The first is evidence that strongly supports that substance of a claim. If I want to make a case that Bob broke into the back of a convenience store and stole a case of Coors, then what I want is video from a security camera showing someone who looks exactly like Bob attacking the door with a crowbar, getting inside, and then running away a few moments later carrying a case of beer. You'd have to really do a lot of twisting and turning to explain that sort of evidence away.
The second type is evidence that doesn't necessarily conflict with my claim, but doesn't really prove anything either. Again, in the above case, maybe all I've got is the fact that Bob likes Coors, that he's bought beer at that convenience store before, and maybe that he owns a crowbar. Well, none of that disagrees with my claim, but neither does it help much either.
The third type is evidence that either disproves a claim or at least makes it highly unlikely, so unlikely that to continue to maintain a claim despite such evidence would be intellectually perverse. Again, if I could show that on the night in question Bob was actually in the hospital with a broken leg, surrounded by doctors and nurses, then the robbery case against him becomes virtually impossible to sustain.
Lastly, there's evidence that weakens a case by its absence. When all our experience about the real world tells us to expect to see certain results after a particular event, then it matters a lot when those results just aren't there. Once again with Bob, if we want to claim that he stole the Coors by breaking into the back of the store, then we should expect to see a broken door, right? But if in fact the door is still intact and shows no signs of damage, then you're really going to have to strain credulity to explain that one away.
To bring this back to your claim of the veracity of the Biblical account of the Exodus, I say your claim fails to meet the burden of proof.
The substance of your claim is that a large body of Israelites left Egypt after a long stay there as slaves, escaped by miraculously passing through a sizable body of water, and that a pursuing military force led by Pharaoh was drowned in that same body of water. You haven't produced any kind of smoking gun, so to speak, to support this claim. All you've come up with is unsubstantiated assertions about evidence that, even if it were confirmed, still wouldn't touch the substance of your claim. One or two chariot wheels does not an army make. In the meantime, the confirmible evidence that we do have - historical records, archaeological finds, etc. - all speak against the possibility of such an event ever taking place as described. We should expect to find at least one campsite left behind from their 40 years in the desert. None. We should expect to find some mention of it in Egypt's records, or at least in the records of some of Egypt's neighbors. No such mention. We should expect to see a profound Egyptian influence on the Hebrew language, as has happened with every other culture that has been subjugated by another. Again, there is none. Your case has not been made.
By their very nature, you can't prove or disprove miracles, so there's no way of either affirming or disproving that the Red Sea parted. But you should at least be able to show substantial evidence of those parts of the story that should be verifiable.

I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by hooah212002, posted 03-17-2010 11:03 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Buzsaw, posted 03-18-2010 8:43 PM ZenMonkey has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 137 of 348 (550765)
03-18-2010 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Buzsaw
03-18-2010 12:00 AM


Re: Techy Evidence, Etc
Buzsaw writes:
As per your message, I'll ask you; what's your thoughts relative to the 10 horned beast implenting marks and numbers for a global monetary system to be globally enforced?
Regarding the beast of Revelation 13:1, 2, The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible points out that it combines in itself the joint characteristics of the four beasts of Daniel’s vision ... Accordingly, this first beast [of Revelation] represents the combined forces of all political rule opposed to God in the world.
The only thing in this world that hold authority over people, is government. That is also borne out by Revelation 13:7, which says of the beast: Authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.
Its the entire political system of the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Buzsaw, posted 03-18-2010 12:00 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 138 of 348 (550768)
03-18-2010 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Buzsaw
03-17-2010 10:29 PM


Re: Techy Evidence, Etc
quote:
There you have your corrobrating support, my friends, Peg, et al, for this terminology every tribe tongue and nation being global and the techy support of the speaking image, your TV and your up and coming global monetary system of marks and numbers which is emerging on our planet as we type.
The global scale is likely a (hyperbolic) reference to the Roman Empire which was indeed forcing the worship of the Emperor on the entire Empire (at one point the Romans got very, very close to placing a statue of the Emperor in the Temple at Jerusalem. And indeed, the Romans dominated the civilised world of that time more than any nation does today or is likely to in the forseeable future.
The speaking image is pretty obviously some sort of statue - it certainly doesn't sound like TV at all. If you absolutely insist on a naturalistic interpretation I suppose you could argue for it being an animatronic figure (but that wouldn't exactly inspire awe in many people in the West).
And of course there is no emerging global monetary system of marks and numbers. And certainly no sign of anything resembling that described in Revelation.
quote:
t's important to understand the above relative to the global Islamic phenomena emerging rapidly. Mohammed who wrote the Quran & his successor apostles who wrote the Sunnahs and Haddith, regarded by Islam equal to the Quran, advocated global Jehadist global fatah, if you wll, which demands that Islam was/is to become the global religion submitting (meaning of Islam) nation, tribe and tongue to Islam.
It is significant, relative to the above prophecy that this emerging global empire will be religious requiring every tribe, tongue and nation to worship a speaking image.
It is significant in that this new religion must be an ENEMY of Islam. The rejection of idolatry - and the worship of an image is clearly idolatry - is a major element of Islam. Muslims who joined would be regarded as apostates and idolators. Oddly enough Revelation makes absolutely no mention of the violent clashes which would inevitably occur if anyone tried to force the Beast worship on modern Islamic countries. Or in many cases, if there was any significant presence of Beast worshippers there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 03-17-2010 10:29 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by hERICtic, posted 03-18-2010 8:25 AM PaulK has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 139 of 348 (550777)
03-18-2010 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by PaulK
03-18-2010 3:16 AM


Re: Techy Evidence, Etc
In the story of the Exodus, didn't the Egyptians have military outposts throughtout the desert? The story states the Israelits left, the Egyptians gave chase but could never catch up. Wouldn't the Israelites have run into Egyptian military forces constantly anyway?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by PaulK, posted 03-18-2010 3:16 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by PaulK, posted 03-18-2010 8:47 AM hERICtic has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 140 of 348 (550778)
03-18-2010 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by hERICtic
03-18-2010 8:25 AM


Re: Exodus
quote:
In the story of the Exodus, didn't the Egyptians have military outposts throughtout the desert? The story states the Israelits left, the Egyptians gave chase but could never catch up. Wouldn't the Israelites have run into Egyptian military forces constantly anyway?
I don't think that Exodus mentions much of that. Egypt is largely forgotten after the destruction of the army. It is possible that the Israelites avoided the coast because of Egyptian bases there (it is called "the land of the Philistines"- but that is likely an anachronism).
I'm not sure of bases deeper within Sinai, but I expect that it would depend on when the Exodus is supposed to take place. But that is one of the things we have no good evidence for (whether because the story is greatly exaggerated over time, and details lost or whether there was no Exodus at all, as I suspect). We can say that the story assumes that Egypt is relatively weak and seems to have no presence within Canaan by the time of Joshua, so it seems likely to me that Egypt would not have remote bases in the desert at that point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by hERICtic, posted 03-18-2010 8:25 AM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by hERICtic, posted 03-18-2010 9:55 AM PaulK has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 141 of 348 (550785)
03-18-2010 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by PaulK
03-18-2010 8:47 AM


Re: Exodus
PaulK writes:
We can say that the story assumes that Egypt is relatively weak and seems to have no presence within Canaan by the time of Joshua, so it seems likely to me that Egypt would not have remote bases in the desert at that point.
Wasn't Canaan under Egyptian control at the time of the supposed Exodus? If so, then the roads and trade routes were also. Which means the Egyptian military had to be involved. I also read that the supposed 40 year wandering "area" had quite the few military outposts.
Do I have my timing incorrect?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by PaulK, posted 03-18-2010 8:47 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by PaulK, posted 03-18-2010 10:07 AM hERICtic has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 142 of 348 (550788)
03-18-2010 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by hERICtic
03-18-2010 9:55 AM


Re: Exodus
Exodus itself gives no useful dating information on when the story is meant to take place. So I can't say what the situation would be at the time of the story, except by inferring from what the story says - or in this case, more what it doesn't say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by hERICtic, posted 03-18-2010 9:55 AM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by hERICtic, posted 03-18-2010 12:16 PM PaulK has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 143 of 348 (550803)
03-18-2010 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by PaulK
03-18-2010 10:07 AM


Re: Exodus
What time frame do most Christians give for the Exodus?
What about Ex. 1:11 -it mentions the children of Israel being used as slave labor to build the city of Raamses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by PaulK, posted 03-18-2010 10:07 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 145 by PaulK, posted 03-18-2010 2:25 PM hERICtic has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 144 of 348 (550805)
03-18-2010 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by hERICtic
03-18-2010 12:16 PM


Re: Exodus
What time frame do most Christians give for the Exodus?
Depends which one you ask. There does not seem to be a consensus, but I believe the 18th dynasty has to be frontrunner.
Wikipedia has a good overview.
The Exodus - Wikipedia
As you can see from the Albright's Late Exodus theory being discredited, Ramesses is too late. This is one of the glaring inconsistencies in the bible. The first Ramesses was the 19th dynasty.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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 Message 143 by hERICtic, posted 03-18-2010 12:16 PM hERICtic has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 145 of 348 (550823)
03-18-2010 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by hERICtic
03-18-2010 12:16 PM


Re: Exodus
I would guess that the majority don't have a firm idea of the date. Because - as Theodoric has pointed out - it is not settled or anywhere near settled. (And that's likely because the story isn't very close to whatever actual events it is based on).
Exodus 1:11 is suggestive but it may well be one of the anachronisms within Exodus, referring to a later name or a later city nearby.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by hERICtic, posted 03-18-2010 12:16 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 146 of 348 (550830)
03-18-2010 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by PaulK
03-18-2010 2:25 PM


Re: Exodus
Thanks guys for the info.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by PaulK, posted 03-18-2010 2:25 PM PaulK has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


(1)
Message 147 of 348 (550854)
03-18-2010 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Buzsaw
03-17-2010 10:52 PM


Observations as Evidence
You say yours was derived from the observations. Tell me, what did the 2nd organism look like? the third? the fourth?.........the 100th?, the 1000th? the ........the.......the......the.......the first living land crawler? the first macro evolved specie eminating from it, etc,? Who observed them?
You said you introduced this argument because you wanted to show that your evidence was not being treated in the same way as ours. That makes all this irrelevant, Buz. Unless you're claiming you have Moses' pedometer readings and compass headings, the vin numbers and maintenance records of the Pharaoh's chariots, and the accounts receivable for Taba Heights Marriott Beach Resort‎.
You don't have anything like that, do you? No. You have a default position.
  • They don't not resemble what I'd imagine a coral covered chariot wheel to look like; therefore, they are chariot wheels.
  • We can't access the markings on the columns; therefore, they implicate Moses.
  • There is a fort. Armies use forts. Pharaoh's Army is an army; therefore it's Pharaoh's fort.
  • A return surge could scour away a shallow bottom; therefore, a return surge did scour away a shallow bottom.
I could go on to assimilate the others, but crap has a low critical angle of repose, Buz, and one can never make a mountain of it.
Skip the distractions and get back to your argument.

You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Buzsaw, posted 03-17-2010 10:52 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 348 (550856)
03-18-2010 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ZenMonkey
03-18-2010 1:25 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
Zen Monkey writes:
This thread is about evidence that supports claims of Biblical accuracy. You have often claimed to have such evidence, and I wanted to see what it was. Look at the definition I offered again:
LOL, Zen. All you're trying to do is to deny the bonafice devidence that fulfilled prophecy affords. You can't just blindly assert that there's no such thing as what we call miracle. If what we regard as miracle is factual then it becomes reality.
I have cited prophecies of a tiny nation of identifiable people who the prophets declared to be dispersed to the Gentile nations. That has happened. We know that it has. It's evidenced by history. OT and NT prophets including Jesus prophesied that this widely scattered little dispersed identifiable people would emerge from many nations to restore their kingdom in this tiny little place called Israel. During the dispersement the land was desolate just as the prophets stated when in fact there was no reason for it to be desolate being that it was a good productive land when the Jews and the Caananites had it. But the prophets said it would be a desolate wasteland until the Jews returned and that it would be surrounded with hostile nations. This all happened. History is the evidence.
We know as well that according to the prophecies it did not happen in ancient days because the prophet Ezekiel in chapter 38 said that the restore nation would be a land where the citizens would dwell in unwalled villages. This was not the case in ancient time but is the case now. All of this and more corroborates with other evidence which I've cited.
So Zen, I'm not buying your charge that my evidence is off topic just because you think there's no such thing as miracle, i.e that you think that Jehovah of the Bible does not exist.
Zen, have you forgotten that one reason you opened this thread is that Buzsaw kept on alluding to fulfilled prophecy and you essentially wanted me to put up or shut up? Well now that I'm producing the bonafide fulfillments you are trying to cut me off. LOL. I'm here to call you on your challenge and produce the goods, so either get use to it or soundly refute my data. You opened this thread, posted a few substanceless rebuttals and cowardly bugged off after your rebuttals tanked and the evidence began to mount which you called for.
I know that I'm bucking a thread full of skeptics but what should be expected? Nobody in this thread but Peg and preacher ICANT would ever admit to anything smacking of supernatural regardless of how much evidence was cited and Peg, being JW, get's her prophecy spoon fed from JW headquarters.
If you choose to disbelieve my evidence, fine, but don't try to falsely allege that Buzsaw has been posting off topic in your thread, having produced no evidence for the Biblical record.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-18-2010 1:25 AM ZenMonkey has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 150 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-19-2010 12:02 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 151 by PaulK, posted 03-19-2010 3:21 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 153 by Huntard, posted 03-19-2010 9:10 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 149 of 348 (550859)
03-18-2010 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Buzsaw
03-18-2010 8:43 PM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
Zen, have you forgotten that one reason you opened this thread is that Buzsaw kept on alluding to fulfilled prophecy
And that, Buz, is why you are so ignorant. You really don't understand what is being requested, do you? Are you just playing dumb? It has been pointed out to you what this thread is about, yet you simnply refuse to address it. You are baring false witness Buz. You are being intellectually dishonest. For shame. Jesus is shitting himself right now, for his sole prophet, Buz, is screwing the pooch.

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Buzsaw, posted 03-18-2010 8:43 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4510 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 150 of 348 (550879)
03-19-2010 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Buzsaw
03-18-2010 8:43 PM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
Hi Buz!
Please, before going any further, go back and read Message 136 once again.
There. Now it should be perfectly clear why talking about interpretations of prophecy are indeed totally off-topic for this thread.
No? Then look at what I said in the OP.
quote:
To my mind, corroborating evidence is a set of data that is both independently derived and that also substantially supports the validity of a certain factual claim.
I can see how from your point of view there is no difference between the "historical" parts of the Bible and the prophetic parts, but there is indeed a profound difference between them. Prophecy is not a factual claim, among other reasons, because it lacks the specificity of a factual claim. "The Exodus really happened as described in the Bible" is a verifiable claim. It's specific and clear. Either this event happened and there is physical evidence to convince us that it did, or it might have happened but there's no way to say for sure one way or the other, or the evidence shows that it's almost certain that it didn't. happen. That's the sort of claim that I was referring to in the OP.
By contrast, prophecy is by its very nature unverifiable and open to interpretation, because it always uses imagery and metaphors. rather than speaking plainly. Look, you and Peg can't even agree what some of your prophecies mean, much less what would fulfill them. So unless you can cite me something as clear and precise as "In 2400 years a Dutch man named van Leeuwenhoek will discover the tiny organisms too small to see that cause many illnesses" then don't claim Bible prophecies can be offered as evidence for the Bible's accuracy.
So get back on topic. If you're giving up trying to offer anything solid regarding the Exodus, then there should be plenty of other historical episodes that you should be able to substantiate. How about showing how worldwide language dispersal patterns are clear indications that the story of the Tower of Babel is based on fact? Or maybe some archaeological support for the conquests of Joshua in Canaan? Independent historical records that validate the rule of King David? All fair game. Whatcha got?
Buzsaw writes:
I'm here to call you on your challenge and produce the goods, so either get use to it or soundly refute my data. You opened this thread, posted a few substanceless rebuttals and cowardly bugged off after your rebuttals tanked and the evidence began to mount which you called for.
Now I'm insulted. I refer you yet again to Message 136, where I said:
quote:
The substance of your claim is that a large body of Israelites left Egypt after a long stay there as slaves, escaped by miraculously passing through a sizable body of water, and that a pursuing military force led by Pharaoh was drowned in that same body of water. You haven't produced any kind of smoking gun, so to speak, to support this claim. All you've come up with is unsubstantiated assertions about evidence that, even if it were confirmed, still wouldn't touch the substance of your claim. One or two chariot wheels does not an army make. In the meantime, the confirmable evidence that we do have - historical records, archaeological finds, etc. - all speak against the possibility of such an event ever taking place as described. We should expect to find at least one campsite left behind from their 40 years in the desert. None. We should expect to find some mention of it in Egypt's records, or at least in the records of some of Egypt's neighbors. No such mention. We should expect to see a profound Egyptian influence on the Hebrew language, as has happened with every other culture that has been subjugated by another. Again, there is none. Your case has not been made.
By their very nature, you can't prove or disprove miracles, so there's no way of either affirming or disproving that the Red Sea parted. But you should at least be able to show substantial evidence of those parts of the story that should be verifiable.
Could you please comment on the evidence against your claims that I've outlined above, instead of simply asserting that they're substanceless?

I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Buzsaw, posted 03-18-2010 8:43 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Peg, posted 03-19-2010 11:43 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

  
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