Foul Tasting Bugs

Even if you find a chink, even if you disprove evolution, this does not prove ID or creationism. They must stand on their own. This is the part IDists and creationists don't get. They have to show evidence for ID and creationism. Even if TOE were discredited, they would still be discredited by virtue there is no evidence for them.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

That was my point. This is not logical. What I was trying to express that the standing of the TOE had no effect on the credence or standing of ID or creationism. It is not an either or proposition, no matter what they want to claim or believe.Edited by Theodoric, : db

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

I am not sure how you can defend this logic. I am not saying there is an alternative. TOE is here to stay. Creationism/ID would need to stand on their own evidence regardless of the TOE. That is why the creation/ID crowd trying to attack TOE is so ridiculous. Why don't they spend time trying to validate their "theories"? Creationism/ID can be delegitimized without TOE even existing. They are delegitimized because there is no evidence. As I said before if TOE was proven wrong tomorrow, that does not make creationism/ID a default winner. They would still have to show evidence. Whatever replaced TOE would have to bring a wealth of evidence forward in order to be considered legitimate. Since TOE has a wealth of evidence it will not be overthrown tomorrow. It will be altered in the future as more evidence is gathered but not overthrown.In you way of thinking if I saw something I couldn't identify flying through the air but I knew it wasn't a plan, then it would have to be a flying saucer from out of space. But no. It could be, and probably is, something that I could get evidence for and identify. Maybe it was a helicopter, or a balloon or a rocket.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

I agree with you that this is how they think.The problem is with the way they think. No matter what they think proving TOE flawed does not strengthen them. I am not saying they don't think that way, I am saying the thinking is flawed.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

I disagree. Science should not have to give credence to bronze age beliefs. Scientists want to do science and not be bothered with people that are beholden to a particular superstition. Thar is their problem. It is not Richard Dawkins' problem, or PZ Myers' problem. The religious are the ones that need to reconcile reality with their beliefs. The scientists are not required and should not be required to be sensitive to their superstitions. They should pursue science. How do you or anyone expect to convince others your beliefs are correct if you have NO evidence?As I said to CS. It is not that I don't think they think this way. It is their logic ids flawed. I will repeat again.Proving TOE flawed does not strengthen Creationism/ID at all. They may think it does, but in actuality it does not.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Sorry for responding to the same post twice.
But this just caught my eye. You can say this with a straight face? Even though there is no evidence there has ever been a flying saucer from outer space? No it may not be crazy, but it is delusional. This is what drives me nuts about certain people. If they can not instantly explain what something is or how it happened, then, of course, it must be supernatural.How is belief in a flying saucer from outer space any different than a belief in leprechauns and fairies? Or should we treat those people as rational also?

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts