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Author Topic:   Foul Tasting Bugs
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 47 (550816)
03-18-2010 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Theodoric
03-18-2010 11:04 AM


Re: This shows the failure of ID and creationism
Even if you find a chink, even if you disprove evolution, this does not prove ID or creationism. They must stand on their own. This is the part IDists and creationists don't get. They have to show evidence for ID and creationism. Even if TOE were discredited, they would still be discredited by virtue there is no evidence for them.
I don't disagree with you in principle, but I don't think creationists are trying to prove creation. They're just trying to get to the point of "not falsified". They can believe whatever they want, but they only become crazy when they believe things that have been shown to be wrong. If they show that they have not been shown to be wrong, then they don't count as crazy anymore.
Plus, they too argue with the either/or logic, i.e. its either evolution or creationism, so when they "defeat" evolution, they're left with the alternative of creation by default.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2010 11:04 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2010 1:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 47 (550821)
03-18-2010 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Theodoric
03-18-2010 1:50 PM


Re: This shows the failure of ID and creationism
It is not an either or proposition, no matter what they want to claim or believe.
What third alternative are you thinking of? Both? Creation by evolution is still evolution...
What I was trying to express that the standing of the TOE had no effect on the credence or standing of ID or creationism.
It most certainly does. The TOE being true deligitimizes creationism/ID. If the TOE is wrong, then at least they aren't being crazy by believing in something shown to be false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2010 1:50 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2010 2:36 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 46 by Peepul, posted 03-19-2010 7:40 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 47 (550826)
03-18-2010 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Theodoric
03-18-2010 2:36 PM


Re: This shows the failure of ID and creationism
I am not sure how you can defend this logic.
I'm trying to explain to you why they wouldn't accept your argument.
I am not saying there is an alternative.
You said it wasn't an either/or... then there must be another, no?
TOE is here to stay. Creationism/ID would need to stand on their own evidence regardless of the TOE. That is why the creation/ID crowd trying to attack TOE is so ridiculous. Why don't they spend time trying to validate their "theories"?
Because they're not trying to do what you're assume they are.
They're not trying to validate their theories, they're simply trying to remove the invalidation. That way, they aren't believing something that has been shown to be wrong.
Granted, there are many who do try to validate their theory, but I'm discussing the postion that IGIT is holding in trying to find "chinks in the armor".
It most certainly does. The TOE being true deligitimizes creationism/ID. If the TOE is wrong, then at least they aren't being crazy by believing in something shown to be false.
Creationism/ID can be delegitimized without TOE even existing.
Irrelevant.
They are delegitimized because there is no evidence.
I disagree. Believing in something with inadequate evidence is not crazy like believing in something that has been shown to be wrong is.
As I said before if TOE was proven wrong tomorrow, that does not make creationism/ID a default winner. They would still have to show evidence.
Not to be not-crazy, no. And where they have "winning" as not-invalidated, proving to themselves that the TOE is wrong IS winning.
Too, for the ones that subscribe to the either/or logic, if the TOE is wrong then creationism is the position by default, aka "won".
In you way of thinking if I saw something I couldn't identify flying through the air but I knew it wasn't a plan, then it would have to be a flying saucer from out of space.
Its more like this (and its their way not mine):
If they saw something they couldn't identify flying through the air but they knew it wasn't a plane, then it could be a flying saucer from out of space. If you prove that it was a plane, then they'd be crazy to believe it was a flying saucer. But if they can show that it has not been proven to be a plane, then they can hold their belief that it was a flying saucer without being crazy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2010 2:36 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2010 3:57 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 42 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2010 4:13 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 47 (550837)
03-18-2010 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Theodoric
03-18-2010 4:13 PM


Well now we're waaay too off topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2010 4:13 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by InGodITrust, posted 03-19-2010 3:57 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
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