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Author Topic:   Camel's Noses, Trojan Horses, and Cultural Aggression
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2107 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 5 of 94 (550829)
03-18-2010 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Theodoric
03-18-2010 10:59 AM


Re: Missionaries are a pox
The Franciscan missionaries built 20+ missions along the California coast to save souls.
During the mission era (1769-1834) the death rate in that mission zone was on the close order of 90%.
But they saved their souls...

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 11 by IchiBan, posted 03-19-2010 9:28 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2107 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 13 of 94 (550969)
03-20-2010 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by IchiBan
03-19-2010 9:28 PM


Facts
Another evolutionist on a crusade against Christianity. And you're all about science, yeh that's the ticket,
Can you dispute the facts in my post?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by IchiBan, posted 03-20-2010 3:13 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2107 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 19 of 94 (551015)
03-20-2010 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by IchiBan
03-20-2010 3:13 AM


Re: wild claims -- Not!
90% death rate from Franciscan mission? You have made yet another wild assed claim for which you have failed to back up. I guess for you and the choir you preach to that counts as fact.
Not so. You can find that figure in any number of books on the subject.
And I have confirmed that figure in my own research (I do research in that area myself).
You might want to consult the following sources:
Sandos, Converting California: Indians and Franciscans in the Missions (Yale University Press, 2004)
Jackson, Indian Population Decline: The Missions of Northwestern New Spain, 1687-1840 (University of New Mexico Press, 1994)
Hackel, Children of Coyote, Missionaries of Saint Francis: Indian-Spanish Relations in Colonial California, 1769-1850 (University of North Carolina Press, 2005)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 21 by Percy, posted 03-20-2010 1:04 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2107 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 29 of 94 (551077)
03-20-2010 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Percy
03-20-2010 12:41 PM


Re: wild claims -- Not!
I am aware of that, Percy.
But those books are at the office and I am at home, it being a weekend.
That's the best I can do at the moment.
But those figures are accurate: during the mission era (1769-1834) the death rate in the mission zone was on the close order of 90%. I say "close order" because of course it varied a bit from mission to mission.
I can provide details when I get back to the office and can pull the books.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Percy, posted 03-20-2010 12:41 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2107 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 30 of 94 (551078)
03-20-2010 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Percy
03-20-2010 1:04 PM


Re: wild claims -- Not!
Good research Percy. I was not aware those books were (at least partially) online.
But the figures you are dealing with are overall mission populations.
Because of the high death rates, particularly with the epidemics of the 1790s and following, the missions were forced to search farther and farther for converts--they needed the labor to keep the missions running, as there was little support from the Spanish government and almost no support from the Mexican government after they took over.
They had to bring in Indian peoples from farther and farther east. Those figures mask somewhat the death rate of the coastal peoples. The figures you quoted give a death rate of 75%, so even without the peoples who were brought in from the east we are close to my figure of 90%. When you add in the thousands of extra people from eastern communities, the death rate in the mission zone does indeed average about 90%.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Percy, posted 03-20-2010 1:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 03-20-2010 8:08 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2107 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 31 of 94 (551079)
03-20-2010 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by New Cat's Eye
03-20-2010 1:47 PM


Re: wild claims -- Not!
Is he actually implying that the missionaries caused the deaths or just noting the correlation?
A bit of both.
Part of the cause of the high death rate was the crowding, poor food, overwork, unsanitary living conditions and demoralization the Indian people experienced at the missions.
Those factors made the introduced diseases much more devastating than they might have been otherwise. But it is unlikely the missionaries were the source of the diseases. That is more likely to have been the sailors and soldiers. Neither were of the best sort, and a wide variety of diseases probably originated with them.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2107 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 33 of 94 (551086)
03-20-2010 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by anglagard
03-20-2010 3:16 PM


Re: To Catholic Scientist and Anglagard
I took death rate to mean population decline rate rather than mortality rate for the very reason a 90% mortality rate makes no sense in this context. However, I can easily see how there could be some confusion over exactly what Coyote meant by "death rate."
Sorry for the confusion.
The figure I was trying to cite was the change in population of the indigenous coastal peoples in the mission zone during the mission era (1769-1834).
This is only a small part of California, so the overall California population change is quite different.
And the ca. 90% figure in the mission zone is altered by the importation of peoples from the interior.
The missions were responsible in part because of the concentration of peoples there. That lead to a higher death rate than perhaps would otherwise have been the case.
But the point may be moot, as some epidemics (as detailed by Sherburne Cook) wiped out huge numbers of interior peoples as well. In the early 1800s whole villages were reportedly killed by diseases in the western side of the Central Valley.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2107 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 51 of 94 (551499)
03-22-2010 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Buzsaw
03-22-2010 9:20 PM


Re: WARNING, FRIENDS! :
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
Of all the strange "crimes" that human beings have legislated of nothing, "blasphemy" is the most amazing - with "obscenity" and "indecent exposure" fighting it out for the second and third place.
Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
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