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Author Topic:   Camel's Noses, Trojan Horses, and Cultural Aggression
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 94 (551073)
03-20-2010 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
03-17-2010 11:18 AM


Buzsaw Position: Jehovah vs Allah
Percy writes:
Gee, where else have we seen any similar Christian sneakiness and misrepresentation?
Hi Percy. Sneakiness and misrepresentation, I think not. Rather it is ignorance.
Our church helps sponser a lindguist translator in Indonesia. When he visited our church I spoke with him regarding this. He informed me that he uses the term, Allah to represent the Biblical god in translating because the predimonantly Muslim nation would not recognize the name Jehovah. I proceeded to explain to him the reasons that Allah an Jehovah were not one and the same gods and how I thought this would work to legitimize the Koran. He said that he would look into this. I haven't seen him since that time and don't know if that influenced any changes.
Perhaps there's an underlying fear among missionaries of persecution if they allude to any god but Allah. The linguist I mentioned above is with Wycliff Bible Translators. Surely, Wycliff, being in this work for a very long time should be aware of this. If so, I fault them for not apprising their workers about it.
Interestingly, the concensus her at EvC among the members is the same as the Christians to whom you allude. My position has consistently been that Allah and Jehovah are not only not one and the same god, but that that they are quite diametrically opposing gods who apparantly have inspired diametrically opposing doctrine into the their respective major prophets, Jehovah's Jesus and Allah's Muhammed.
For the most part, the EvC membership response to my allegations have been negative rebuttal attempts, sometimes regarding my position as hateful bigotry.
In Christian circles and out of Christian circles, folks whom I've discussed this with consider the gods of the Koran and the Bible to be one and the same. It's also the case in mainstream media, including Fox News. I notice it, since it's an important issue.
Imo it does more to legitimize Islam than it does to benefit propagation of the Biblical gospel. In fact there has been some times when Islamic apologists in America have tried to claim that the two are one god. I don't recall the source or sources, but perhaps I could get some up if needful.
The fact is that Jehovah is the one and only proper name of the Biblical god and Allah is the one and only proper Koranic god, proper, gramatically speaking, denoting names. The Hebrew Biblical word, elohim, is not a proper name but a generic name simply meaning god. Though the meaning remains the same in the Koran, Muhammed deemed the Arabic rendering of god to be the proper name of his god, Allah, one of the many god's worshipped at Meccah before by the sword, Muhammed's god, Allah prevailed to become the monotheistic god of Islam.
I'm not alone among evangelicals insisting that the two gods are not one and the same. As per a link cited in the link in your OP, Ergan Caner, president of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary agrees with my position. I'm sure there are others
Link from OP writes:
Ergun Caner, president of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary, in Lynchburg, Va., said in a recent podcast, There’s nothing that the two gods the god of the Koran and the god of scripture have in common. Nothing.
From your link, Muhammed also appears to have had somewhat
the same ulterior motive for essentially hijacking the Biblical god, Jesus, Abraham, et al as well as some doctrines and events from the Bible, which was to legitimize his paganistic Allah god religion so as to gain converts. He picked and chose carefully, so as to undermine the trinity, sonship of Jesus and particularly the Abrahamic Covenant which Jehovah declared exclusively to to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and exclusively from Ishmael and Esaw in the OT.
Muhammed essentially hijacked the OT violent actions of Jehovah which Jehovah exclusively applied to Israel and the land of Caanan and excluded the love your enemy non-violent doctrines of Jesus and his apostles in the NT.
Exerpts from OP link writes:
How and when did Muhammad decide that the Abrahamic god was the one and only God? According to one early oral Muslim tradition, Muhammad’s wife had a wise old cousin who was a Christian. When Muhammad had his initial revelation, it was so disorientingWas he going crazy? Was he demon-possessed?that he sought guidance from his wife, and she consulted this cousin.
If indeed Muhammad fleshed out an initially vague religious experience with the help of a Christian, that could explain why he concluded that his mission was to spread a monotheist message, and, more specifically, the message of the Abrahamic god; especially if, as that early Islamic tradition has it, the Christian in question had long believed that God would send a prophet to the Arabsand declared upon hearing of Muhammad’s experience, Verily Muhammad is the Prophet of this people. This is the kind of pronouncement that could help a seeker with messianic leanings but no clear mission fill in the blanks.
Even aside from the Christian cousin-in-law, Muhammad had chances to learn about the Judeo-Christian God. There may have been pockets of Christians and Jews in the Meccan vicinity, and there was a sizable Christian community in Yemen, one of Mecca’s two main trade partners. And the other big trade partner, Syria, was part of the Byzantine Empire and hence heavily Christian. Muhammad is said to have traveled to Syria as a boy with his uncle on trade trips.
He would probably have carried an open attitude toward Syrian religion. Mecca was a polytheistic society that, in classic ancient fashion, was tolerant of the gods of trade partners. In fact, Mecca’s famous shrine the Ka’batoday the destination of the hajj, the annual Islamic pilgrimagewas in pre-Islamic times surrounded by idols of gods favored by various tribes and clans, and this pluralism seems to have lubricated commerce. According to one early Muslim source, a Christian had been allowed to paint an image of Jesus and the Virgin Mary on an inner wall of the Ka’bathe sort of formalized respect for the beliefs of trade partners that would have been unexceptional in an ancient polytheistic city.
In this case the respect probably went beyond the formal. The Byzantine Empire was more cosmopolitan, more technologically advanced, than Arabian society, and the culture of a powerful neighbor often holds a special fascination to a less developed people. So long as that power isn’t viewed as an enemy, the fascination can be alluring.
This leads to one way of looking at Muhammadas a man who had the ingenuity to fill a wide-open spiritual niche. He took a foreign god that was already making inroads in Arabia and became that god’s official Arab-language spokesman. To put it in modern commercial terms, it’s as if no one before Muhammad had thought to secure Arabic translation rights to the Bible, even though demand for such a book was taking shape.
The Koran itself comes close to saying as much: Before this, was the Book of Moses. And this Book [the Koran] confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue.
However, there’s a crucial difference between this line and the Muhammad-as-translator analogy. In the translator scenario, Judeo-Christian theology is transmitted to Muhammad by contact with Jews and Christians and/or their scriptures. In the Koran’s scenario, Judeo-Christian theology was transmitted to the Jews and Christians by God and then to Muhammad by God. When God, in the Koran, tells Muhammad that he has made it an Arabic Koran that ye may understand: And it is a transcript of the archetypal Book, the archetypal Book isn’t the Bible. Rather, the archetypal book is the word of Godthe Logos, as some ancient Christians and Jews would have put itof which the Bible is equally a transcript. Muhammad didn’t get the Word via Moses. Rather, like Moses, he had a direct line to God.
So Islam, by its own account, isn’t descended from other Abrahamic religions, even though it is rooted firmly in the Abrahamic lineage. Yes, Islamic tradition may highlight Muhammad’s contact with a Christian relative, but the idea isn’t that the relative was an invaluable tutor in Christianity; more important was his role in helping Muhammad see which god was already doing the tutoring.
This distinction would have been crucial to Muhammad. The way to attract a devoted following in those days was to have special access to the supernatural. Just having access to a cousin-in-law conversant in biblical scripture wouldn’t be very impressive. Indeed, that Muhammad’s revelations were in fact coming from human sources is an allegation Muhammad’s enemies made in trying to blunt his appeal. As the Koran describes the charge, Muhammad’s message was dismissed as tales of the ancients that he [Muhammad] hath put in writing! And they were dictated to him morn and even. At one point the Koran even addresses a specific accusation about who was doing the dictating. They say, ‘Surely a certain person teacheth him.’ But the tongue of him at whom they hint is foreign, while this Koran is in the plain Arabic. Case closed
This misunderstanding among the sheeples of most nations and particularly the mainstream media is a signifant factor in the phenomenal growth of Islam globally.
The falsehood is a greater benefit to Islam than to Christian missions.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 03-17-2010 11:18 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-20-2010 11:49 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 94 by Theodoric, posted 05-10-2010 6:47 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 94 (551105)
03-21-2010 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Dr Adequate
03-20-2010 11:49 PM


Re: Buzsaw Position: Jehovah vs Allah
Dr Adequate writes:
In both Arabic and Indonesian, Allah is simply the word for God-with-a-capital-G, and is not a proper name. It would certainly be impossible for Christians,as you suggest, to substitute Jehovah or Yahweh, since this is the proper name of God the Father.
So for example Arabic Christians, ever since Christianity came to Arabia, speak of Jesus as --- Allah al-ibn --- God the Son; and there is no other way of saying this in Arabic. It would not be correct, would it, to speak of Jehovah the Son.
Allah was indeed one of the many gods of Mecca and in fact, the primary god of Muhammed's family. It was the only name known to Muhammed and other Arabs at Mecca previous to his contact with Christians. Jehovah of the Bible was not an acceptable or known god of Mecca, according to the books I have on Islam written by objective authors.
Btw, Jesus is the son of Jehovah and not Jehovah, the son according to the terminology of the NT.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-20-2010 11:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-21-2010 5:27 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 94 (551398)
03-22-2010 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dr Adequate
03-21-2010 5:27 AM


Re: Buzsaw Position: Jehovah vs Allah
Dr Adequate writes:
That's my point. If you want to say "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost" in Arabic, you cannot use the word "Jehovah" for "God" because that would make a nonsense of Christian theology. The only way you can say it is "Allh al-ʼab, Allh al-ibn, wa Allh al-rḥ al-quds". And this is in fact what Arabic-speaking Christians have always said.
Doc:
1) Jehovah is the proper name of the Christian god as per the Bible. What is the proper name of the Muslim god as per the Quran?
2) Jesus is not god the son, nor is the Holy Spirit god the spirit as is falsely claimed by many. Jesus is the son of Jehovah and the Holy Spirit is both the multipresent spirit of Jesus, son and Jehovah, father/god, god of Jesus and of us. The father, Jehovah and the son, Jesus share the one and same multipresent Holy Spirit, i.e. the same multipresent spirit of Genesis 1, the working agent and the same multipresent spirit which resides in the believer. That's been my position for years here at EvC.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-21-2010 5:27 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-22-2010 5:42 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 94 (551475)
03-22-2010 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2010 5:47 PM


Re: WARNING, FRIENDS! :
Catholic Scientist writes:
I think its Freakin'
Careful there, friend! Jesus warned:
Matthew 12:31,
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
Edited by Buzsaw, : update message title

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2010 5:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Coragyps, posted 03-22-2010 9:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 46 by Granny Magda, posted 03-22-2010 9:55 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 47 by AZPaul3, posted 03-22-2010 10:15 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 48 by bluescat48, posted 03-22-2010 10:26 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 51 by Coyote, posted 03-22-2010 11:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 52 by subbie, posted 03-22-2010 11:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 56 by lyx2no, posted 03-22-2010 11:54 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 80 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-23-2010 10:24 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 94 (551490)
03-22-2010 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Granny Magda
03-22-2010 9:55 PM


Re: WARNING, FRIENDS! :
Granny Magda writes:
And you're fine with that. Really? Really really? Would you really be cool with seeing this kid end up in Hell? Really?
Granny, do you think I would have posted the warning if I wanted anything to happen to anyone? After I posted, I offered up a silent prayer to God in the name of Jesus on behalf of the blasphemers, that God would be merciful to them.
The reason I posted the warning is because I believe in my soul and mind that Jehovah, Jesus and the mighty Holy Spirit exist and that what they say is to be taken seriously.
Jesus, in John 3 said he was not willing that any would perish, but that all would come to repentance. That's my attitude regarding you people as well. I felt compelled to post the warning, for failing to do so could be equated to silently watching a blind man walk over a precipice.
If I didn't believe the warning scripture or if I wished any evil upon anyone I would not have bothered to post the warning verse.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Granny Magda, posted 03-22-2010 9:55 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Granny Magda, posted 03-22-2010 11:36 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 94 (551495)
03-22-2010 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by AZPaul3
03-22-2010 10:15 PM


Re: Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!
AZPaul3 writes:
Since your religion means nothing do you really think a charge of blasphemy holds any sway?
Since in this secular society you christians cannot burn us and eat us as you would want do you really think any of us care what blasphemies you and your gods define?
Paul, hell and judgement and condemnation belong to God. I have neither judged or condemned anyone nor have I defined blasphemy. That belongs to the dictionary.
Free Online Dictionary: blasphemy:
a. A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by AZPaul3, posted 03-22-2010 10:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by DrJones*, posted 03-22-2010 11:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 55 by AZPaul3, posted 03-22-2010 11:46 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 94 (551511)
03-22-2010 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Dr Adequate
03-22-2010 5:42 PM


Re: Buzsaw Position: Jehovah vs Allah
Dr Adequate writes:
There just isn't one. He's God. From a Muslim point of view it would be positively blasphemous to speculate about God as having a proper name such as "James" or "Caroline" or "Edward". There are various things that you can call God, such as "The Merciful One", or "The Compassionate One", or just "God" --- but he doesn't have a personal name as such.
Why then, in order to become a Muslim one must declare that Allah is god and Muhammed is his prophet?
Allah is the only known or acknowledged proper name of the Muslim god where as the generic term, "god" is the adjective defining what/who Allah is.
In a sense, Allah could be somewhat like the Greek unknown god, spoken of by the apostle Paul in the NT.
Some folks here have been trying to show that Muhammed regarded the Bible well. I maintain that he hijacked what suited his fancy from the Bible so as to gain legitimacy and win converts. If he regarded the Bible well, he would have acknowledged the proper name, Jehovah/Yaweh.
The Jews in the later centuries when they weren't following Jehovah closely had this similar superstition about speaking the name, though, unlike Muhammed they acknowledged that Jehovah/Yahweh was his name. Perhaps that had some influence on Muhammed.
I would be fearful for my life if I preached or taught Jehovah in Saudi Arabia and some other Muslim theocratic nations.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-22-2010 5:42 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by DrJones*, posted 03-22-2010 11:58 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 59 by Granny Magda, posted 03-23-2010 12:01 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 62 by AZPaul3, posted 03-23-2010 12:16 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-23-2010 12:35 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 94 (551515)
03-23-2010 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Granny Magda
03-22-2010 11:36 PM


Re: WARNING, FRIENDS! :
Granny writes:
I know you don't want it to happen, that's not the point. What worries me is that you believe it and yet you still worship the sick and evil monster who would condemn that poor kid to eternal damnation.
It's the evidence, Granny; the corroborated evidence. I know it to be compelling.
King Solomon, declared to be the wisest living man ever implied as much when he said:
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of knowledge;........

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Granny Magda, posted 03-22-2010 11:36 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Granny Magda, posted 03-23-2010 12:23 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 94 (551516)
03-23-2010 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by DrJones*
03-22-2010 11:58 PM


Re: Buzsaw Position: Jehovah vs Allah
Dr Jones writes:
There you go with your blasphemy again.
I do not fear the Muslim entities, Doc, nor do I regard facts about Islam as blasphemy.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by DrJones*, posted 03-22-2010 11:58 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by DrJones*, posted 03-23-2010 12:46 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 94 (551520)
03-23-2010 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Granny Magda
03-23-2010 12:01 AM


Re: Buzsaw Position: Jehovah vs Allah
Granny Magda writes:
Yes, God forbid that one Abrahamic faith should hijack the teachings of an earlier Abrahamic faith, that would dreadful...
Yes, most certainly, especially when the Jonny come lately hijacked data contradicts the older scriptures which declare Jesus to be the son of God.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Granny Magda, posted 03-23-2010 12:01 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Granny Magda, posted 03-23-2010 12:41 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 94 (551522)
03-23-2010 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by AZPaul3
03-23-2010 12:16 AM


Re: Buzsaw Position: Jehovah vs Allah
AZPaul writes:
"Allah" is a noun, not a "proper name."
I see. So the Muslim god has no proper name. Interesting, indeed.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by AZPaul3, posted 03-23-2010 12:16 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 94 (551524)
03-23-2010 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Granny Magda
03-23-2010 12:23 AM


Re: WARNING, FRIENDS! :
Granny Magda writes:
If you truly believe in such a cruel God, you are right to fear him. To love him though? That's pretty sick. All a bit "Big Brother" for me.
It's like my relationship with my Daddy as a son, Granny; a fear/love thing. I loved him but feared disobeying him. He loved me as well and had no joy in punishing me for my own good when I did not obey.
Praise Jehovah, from whom all blessing flow to those who fear him!

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Granny Magda, posted 03-23-2010 12:23 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 94 (551528)
03-23-2010 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Granny Magda
03-23-2010 12:23 AM


Re: WARNING, FRIENDS! :
Granny Magda writes:
Buz, I've seen your idea of "evidence" and suffice to say, I didn't find it compelling.
The corroborating half has not been told, madear. That half becomes known as you experience it, personally from day to day.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Granny Magda, posted 03-23-2010 12:23 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 94 (551532)
03-23-2010 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Dr Adequate
03-23-2010 12:35 AM


Re: Buzsaw Position: Jehovah vs Allah
Dr Adequate writes:
No, you still don't get it.
I get it, now, Doc,, what you and Paul3 have explained; that the Muslim god has no proper name and having no proper name, can't be one and the same as the Biblical god who's proper name is Jehovah.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-23-2010 12:35 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by DrJones*, posted 03-23-2010 12:49 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 74 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-23-2010 1:12 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 83 by bluescat48, posted 03-23-2010 3:37 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 94 (551537)
03-23-2010 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Granny Magda
03-23-2010 12:41 AM


Re: Buzsaw Position: Jehovah vs Allah
Thousands of Jews have received and acknowledged Jesus as lord and savior, Granny, particularly those who are apprised of the OT prophecies of him which confirm his messiahship.
One of those prophets, Zechariah, has declared that when he comes in the 2nd Advent at the time of Armageddon they will look upon him whom they pierced and mourn.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Granny Magda, posted 03-23-2010 12:41 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Granny Magda, posted 03-23-2010 1:17 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
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