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Member (Idle past 4530 days) Posts: 428 From: Portland, OR USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Evidence for the Biblical Record | |||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
I didn't address this post before, but since Buz wants us to look at his evidence...
quote: As I have pointed out often enough Daniel 8 identifies the end times as the time of Antiochus Epiphanes. The beast of Daniel 7 is the Seleucid empire of Antiochus, past even at the time the Revelation was written.
quote: Daniel 12:1 indicates that Daniel 12 itself is to be "sealed up" until the end. Which agrees with Daniel 8 in placing the end times in the 2nd Century BC. And we are told nothing if the contents of the book in Revelation 5 or the next few chapters and so we have nothing to identify it with the words referred to in Daniel 12.
quote: Let us note that all we have is assertions here. Assertions that misrepresent the Bible.There is no "mark/number monetary stuff". There is no indication that the mark is used for money or even for personal identification. The mark may contain a number - but only one number, that of the Beast is mentioned and even that is optional. That does not sound like any banking system that I know of ! Account numbers, credit card numbers and PINs are all individual ! The image of the Beast is not viewed globally. Enforcement of restrictions can be done without advanced technology. (Informers and thugs are nothing new !) So we have no evidence here at all.
quote: Daniel 8 clearly refers to ancient times. Ezekiel 35 can't be reasonably be taken as referring to modern times either - being addressed to a people last heard of in 70 AD. The Daniel verse - or part verse - you refer to (the latter part of 12:4) states
...many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Running to and fro doesn't require fast transport. "Running" suggests that they are not using any form of transport other than their own legs. (Of course, even if it did the Roman road system did allow people to move faster around the Empire.) Again, the evidence - a clear reference to fast transport - is completely missing.
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JonF Member (Idle past 188 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
yet its interesting that the Chinese character for ship is made up of eight people in a vessel. Oh, Peg, Peg, Peg, have you learned no evaluation skills in your years her. of course the Chinese character for ship isn't made up of eight people in a vessel.!! From Inquiry regarding the mythical barge ('Noah's ark'):
quote: Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
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slevesque Member (Idle past 4660 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: |
May I ask, JonF, how much evaluation effort you put into this as well ?
You do know you quoted Bill Jefferys, departement of astronomy at Texas university who's grand-father was a chinese missionary who is criticizing the work done by Dr. Ginger Tong Chock, who received her PhD in chinese art study from Stanford (chinese writing is included in art). Considering this, and also that the studies of these chinese characters were done by other native-speaking chinese people, I will ask a question (so as it does not become an argument from authority on my part): How much have you read on the subject, particularly the research done by Dr. Tong Chock ? I consider that reading from both sides of an issue would be one of the most basic ''evaluation skills'', as you call them.
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JonF Member (Idle past 188 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Considering this, and also that the studies of these chinese characters were done by other native-speaking chinese people, I will ask a question (so as it does not become an argument from authority on my part): How much have you read on the subject, particularly the research done by Dr. Tong Chock ? I consider that reading from both sides of an issue would be one of the most basic ''evaluation skills'', as you call them. I haven't seen any credible evidence for Peg's claim. You got some, you trot it out. Google shows zero hits for "Dr. Tong Chock". I can't come with any relevant hits using no quotes. CreationWiki gives two references, one which just repeats the claim and one which is in Chinese. http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j19_2/j19_2_96-108.pdf has one author with a possibly Chinese name who may or may not know Chinese (his brief bio seems to indicate he may be US-born) and two non-Chines authors. ABE: I've done a lot of reading on both sides of the issue on Noah's Fludde. It didn't happen. Therefore, any claim that rests on the assumption that there was a fludde is prima facie wrong. Edited by JonF, : Added last paragraph
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Peg Member (Idle past 4949 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
JonF writes: ABE: I've done a lot of reading on both sides of the issue on Noah's Fludde. It didn't happen. Therefore, any claim that rests on the assumption that there was a fludde is prima facie wrong. this wasnt a discussion about noahs flood, it was a discussion about the languages of nations. Zen Monkey gave some 'evidence' claiming that the chinese people were already established with a language and writing system before the tower of babel incident implying that they could not have been among the people of mesopotamia. As linguists trace languages thru similarities, i showed that the chinese language has some similarities to the mesopotamia with regard to their word for ship. If you deny that the character for ship consits of the numeral 8, a vessel and mouths/people, then please address the evidence for that as your reply has nothing to do with the topic as it stands. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 821 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
There were only 8 mouths on the Ark? Do you have solid evidence that this is anything more than mere "coincidence"? Like, perhaps a study of ancient Chinese lettering that says it IS representative of the ark? The only reference to anything remotely similar is apologetics literature.
"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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Peg Member (Idle past 4949 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hooah212002 writes: There were only 8 mouths on the Ark? Do you have solid evidence that this is anything more than mere "coincidence"? Like, perhaps a study of ancient Chinese lettering that says it IS representative of the ark? The only reference to anything remotely similar is apologetics literature. the sign for 'mouth' in chinese i believe is representive of people, not animals. and No, i dont have any evidence that this is anythign more then coincidence, perhaps it is, perhaps it isnt. If it is, its an unbelieveable coincidence i'm sure you'd agree. And if it isnt, then it shows that the chinese did have some link to the mesopotamia.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 304 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
yet its interesting that the Chinese character for ship is made up of eight people in a vessel. That wouldn't even be very interesting if it was true. As it is false, that removes any significance it might have had.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 304 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
the sign for 'mouth' in chinese i believe is representive of people, not animals. Actually it's representative of mouths. The word "duh" springs to mind.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4949 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
duh exactly.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 821 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
the sign for 'mouth' in chinese i believe is representive of people, not animals. So, there is a seperate caricature for non-homo sapiens mouths? "Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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Peg Member (Idle past 4949 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hooah212002 writes: So, there is a seperate caricature for non-homo sapiens mouths? i have no idea. Do you?
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2315 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Peg, if you don't know, then how can you be so entusiastic about the fact it syas "eight people in a vessel"? When in fact you don't know if it says that. It could say "eight mouths in a vessel", in which the mouths include animal mouths, which would mean it's nothing like the ark. There are even other explanations. Maybe traditional chinese boats were managed by a crew of eight (I admit I don;t know this to be true, it could be an explanation though), point is, without looking into it, how can you be so sure it supports your position? Just because you happen to agree with it doesn;t mean it's true.
This is what we mean when we say you should check your sources better. The way it seems to work now is this: You hear/read something you like/agree with/sounds to you like good evidence for your beliefs, and then you run with it, without checking if the thing you heard/read is in fact true. You then go to an online board, and proudly proclaim you have more evidence. People look into the evidence, and find out it's completely wrong. What "disturbs" me the most about this is the fact that this doesn't seem to hinder you in the least, you'll do the exact same thing next time. Why don't you check out the evidence, even when you agree with it? Doing it like this only undermines your cause. I will admit, that even before people came with the explanations for the evidence, I thought: "That's probably going to turn out to be false". Why? Because it ususally is with you.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 821 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
It's not up to me to verify YOUR claim.
"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 304 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Peg, if you don't know, then how can you be so entusiastic about the fact it syas "eight people in a vessel"? When in fact you don't know if it says that. It could say "eight mouths in a vessel" Or "eight vessels in a mouth", or "a mouth in eight vessels", or "a vessel in eight mouths" or "eight mouths outside a vessel" ... the word order and the preposition are entirely invented by the apologists and have nothing to do with the actual Chinese character. But their error is deeper even than that, because it is simply nonsense to try to read a single Chinese character as though it was a sentence. The breadth and variety of subjects that fundamentalists can be wrong about is astonishing. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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