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Author | Topic: Does Atheism = No beliefs? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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Nothing is wasted in nature, nothing is wrong or imperfect, Nature is a perfect cycle of transformation, from the sun which transforms Hydrogen to Helium, to the plants that transform light into plant matter, to the tiger which transforms antelopes into baby tigers. Nothing is wasted, Nature in all its forms is perfect. Only 10% of energy is passed between trophic levels. In layman terms, plants are only able to turn 10% of the energy they receive into food. When herbivores eat those plants they can only transfer 10% of that plant food into energy for themselves. When a carnivore eats the herbivore once again only 10% of the energy makes it to the carnivore. When a scavenger eats the carnivore only 10% of that energy makes it to the scavenger. From the plant to the scavenger only 0.01% of the energy from the plant through the web of life makes it to the scavenger. By my math, 0.01% is much less than a perfect 100%. This is just one example of many that we can cite for imperfection in nature. And if nature were perfect why do we have vets and doctors? In America, we spend 1 dollar of every 6 just to fix this supposed perfection.
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Den Member (Idle past 5101 days) Posts: 36 From: Australia Joined: |
quote: If it is not hard as you say please provide an answer. I'm not asking you to provide proof, I asking what do you require as proof?
quote:Arent most vets dealing with the problems created by man made incestually inbred animals such as mutated cats, dogs and livestock? Anyway I think your are missing the point that perfection is a subjective matter, I dont believe that perfection and imperfection exists, its all perfect, I know you might find that hard to grasp, I probably need to work out how to explain this better. CheersDen
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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If it is not hard as you say please provide an answer. I'm not asking you to provide proof, I asking what do you require as proof? God appearing to above a city of millions and predicting the outcome of the next lottery. That would be a nice one. You know, the same evidence you would need to be convinced that Santa Claus exists. Or perhaps you could list the evidence you would require to believe in one of the thousands of gods you currently disbelieve in. Stealing from Stephen Roberts . . . I contend that we are both atheists. I just happen to disbelieve in one more god than you do. When you understand why you disbelieve in all those other possible gods you will understand why I disbelieve in yours. ABE:
Arent most vets dealing with the problems created by man made incestually inbred animals such as mutated cats, dogs and livestock? Anyway I think your are missing the point that perfection is a subjective matter, I dont believe that perfection and imperfection exists, its all perfect, I know you might find that hard to grasp, I probably need to work out how to explain this better. You seem to have confused the word "existence" with "perfection". The only requirement you seem to have for something being perfect is that it exists. That doesn't make any sense. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Den writes:
Let me try something here and see how it goes. I'm not asking you to provide proof, I asking what do you require as proof? What evidence would you require to believe in Snarklepom? No, this is not a trap, please try and answer the question, I promise it's not to make fun of you, it's to make a rather basic point I hope will get across.
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Den Member (Idle past 5101 days) Posts: 36 From: Australia Joined: |
First there is proof so far that at minimum Snarklepom exists in your imagination, since if it did not, you would be unable to write it down, therefore this evidence is expressed in your written text.
For anyone to define or prove Snarklepom in reality, I guess if you wanted to make the case Snarklepom existed in reality you would first have to describe or define what is Snarklepoms purpose in our collaborative reality? Nice try, but I dont think you can drawn a comparison since intellegent design has been attributed or dedicated to a purpose, snarklepom has not - yet. Edited by Den, : fixed a squeak!
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Den Member (Idle past 5101 days) Posts: 36 From: Australia Joined: |
quote:Perfection and imperfection is based on a completely subjective decision. So I actually mean that everything just is. You might have to think about it for a while and try to explain it to yourself, cause I've done my best, a good theology teacher can probably explain what Im saying alot better. Edited by Den, : No reason given.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Based our current proven knowledge, perfection and imperfection can only be defined by the human mind, and it is based on a completely subjective decision. I don't think so. Perfection just mean complete or flawless. A droplet of water falling could still form a perfect sphere, objectively. A region of space completely void of light would still be perfectly black, objectively. So, there are things that exist that are not perfect. Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 285 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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I'm not following your line of argument.
You brought up the issues of rape and infanticide (here) as though you thought that they were bad things. But now when I agree with you that they are bad things, you shift your ground completely and insist that they are "perfect". Please explain yourself further. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Peepul Member (Idle past 5018 days) Posts: 206 Joined: |
I think the word 'religious' as used by CS CAN be appropriate when describing non-theistic beliefs.
For example, if people venerate a belief system, use it to define their values, resist criticism of it and changes to it, and criticize or judge others who believe differently, then it's fair to call their attitude 'religious'. Likewise if they treat an individual the same way. So for example, I would include extreme left and right wing politicians and some music fans in this group. When Richard Dawkins describes atheists as 'brights', ie intellectually superior to the religious, he is entering this territory. If I'm honest, I would say my own belief in the scientific method is religious. That provides the energy for my discussions with creationists.
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Peepul Member (Idle past 5018 days) Posts: 206 Joined: |
Marc9000,
quote: I don't agree with your first statement. Who brings up evolution? Is it the atheist or the person they are talking to? I don't bring it up when talking about myself. I agree that there is a correlation between atheism and liberalism, but it's not absolute. I have come across right wing atheists. If I remember, there's somebody on Richard Dawkin's site whose forum name is that, or something similar.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Den writes:
The word most certainly does, and that's about as far as Snarklepom goes.
First there is proof so far that at minimum Snarklepom exists in your imagination, since if it did not, you would be unable to write it down, therefore this evidence is expressed in your written text. For anyone to define or prove Snarklepom in reality, I guess if you wanted to make the case Snarklepom existed in reality you would first have to describe or define what is Snarklepoms purpose in our collaborative reality?
Almost what I had in mind, but very close indeed. It's not the purpose that is of concern here (which was to make a point). Of concern here is that Snarklepom has not been defined at all. So if you ask me, what evidence would you need for god, my first response would be: "What is god?". There are some rather nice videos on the subject I think would help clarify this all a bit, here they are:
Linky
Linky Nice try, but I dont think you can drawn a comparison since intellegent design has been attributed or dedicated to a purpose, snarklepom has not - yet.
True, but what is an intelligent designer, other then the fact that it is intelligent and designs things. Does this make the dilemma concerning your questions clear?
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Peepul Member (Idle past 5018 days) Posts: 206 Joined: |
quote: Right, so the arthritis in my mother's hands is perfect? Whales who get the bends are perfect? The death of many animals in pain or by starvation is perfect? Disease and parasitism are perfect? Have a look at an encyclopedia of tropical human diseases. I dread to think what imperfection would look like.
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
You might have to think about it for a while and try to explain it to yourself, cause I've done my best, a good theology teacher can probably explain what Im saying alot better. Yeah, just like I need a used car salesman to tell me that a car blowing out blue smoke is the "perfect family car".
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Woodsy Member (Idle past 3374 days) Posts: 301 From: Burlington, Canada Joined: |
I wonder if we are seeing a trace of the "no-one is allowed to criticise religion" notion in CS's posts.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I wonder if we are seeing a trace of the "no-one is allowed to criticise religion" notion in CS's posts. Bwah? What's that supposed to mean? Why would I call atheism a religion so as to make it so that it can't be criticized? I'm pretty sure I've done my fair share of criticizing atheism...
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