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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Biblical Record
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 226 of 348 (551783)
03-24-2010 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Peg
03-24-2010 2:59 AM


Re: back to topic of linguistics
If you deny that the character for ship consits of the numeral 8, a vessel and mouths/people, then please address the evidence for that as your reply has nothing to do with the topic as it stands.
I haven't seen any credible evidence for it yet. You haven't offered any evidence at all. I can't address what doesn't exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Peg, posted 03-24-2010 2:59 AM Peg has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 227 of 348 (551785)
03-24-2010 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Peg
03-23-2010 4:16 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
I've just been looking at a list of Chinese radicals. The element of the character that you say means "mouth" actually means "erect, proud, upright", and the element that you say means "eight" actually means "small table".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Peg, posted 03-23-2010 4:16 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Wounded King, posted 03-24-2010 8:28 AM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 233 by Peg, posted 03-24-2010 11:42 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 228 of 348 (551790)
03-24-2010 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Dr Adequate
03-24-2010 7:39 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
I think you are being a bit harsh here Dr. A. The characters for mouth and erect are a rectangle and a square respectively, and which one is in the compound pictogram is pretty impossible to call just looking at them. As for the 'small table', another site showing the Kanji character for ship clearly show that the top element is not the one for table. In fact if you look at the stroke order diagram on that page, and then the one for the 'mouth' radical and the 'erect' radical it is pretty clear that it is indeed the one for 'mouth' which is composed from 3 separate strokes.
I think that the idea this has something to do with Noah's ark is nonsense, but I don't think Peg has what the actual characters themselves are mixed up.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2010 7:39 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2010 8:52 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 229 of 348 (551795)
03-24-2010 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Wounded King
03-24-2010 8:28 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
Well, "small table" is what they've written here:
However, I'll agree that they might have intended to write "eight". According to talkorigins, by the way, it actually means "divide".
As to the supposed "mouth" element, the "erect" element also is formed from three strokes, as you can see from the webpage I linked to. The only difference seems to be that "erect" is squarer and "mouth" is more oblong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Wounded King, posted 03-24-2010 8:28 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Wounded King, posted 03-24-2010 9:31 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 239 by Peg, posted 03-25-2010 7:25 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 230 of 348 (551799)
03-24-2010 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Dr Adequate
03-24-2010 8:52 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
As to the supposed "mouth" element, the "erect" element also is formed from three strokes, as you can see from the webpage I linked to.
The little animated gifs confused me by only showing 2 strokes for the 'erect' radical.
I may have been misled about the upper one since the site I linked to was Kanji rather than actual traditional chinese. However, searching for 'ship' on the mandarin tools site brings up this stroke order animation which clearly supports your interpretation of the upper sub pictogram.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2010 8:52 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 231 of 348 (551877)
03-24-2010 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Dr Adequate
03-24-2010 7:22 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
Dr Adequate writes:
But their error is deeper even than that, because it is simply nonsense to try to read a single Chinese character as though it was a sentence.
LOL
i dont think i really said that. The chinese characters are made up of a single pictograph or a combination of a few which creates a new word.
the idea that the chinese character for ship is strangely similar to the noahs ark story seems too much for some of you to handle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2010 7:22 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Rahvin, posted 03-24-2010 11:42 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 234 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-25-2010 12:39 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 243 by bluescat48, posted 03-25-2010 9:18 AM Peg has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 232 of 348 (551879)
03-24-2010 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Peg
03-24-2010 11:39 PM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
the idea that the chinese character for ship is strangely similar to the noahs ark story seems too much for some of you to handle.
Two words:
Confirmation Bias.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Peg, posted 03-24-2010 11:39 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 233 of 348 (551880)
03-24-2010 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Dr Adequate
03-24-2010 7:39 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
DrAdequate writes:
I've just been looking at a list of Chinese radicals. The element of the character that you say means "mouth" actually means "erect, proud, upright", and the element that you say means "eight" actually means "small table".
No webpage found at provided URL: http://chineseculture.about.com/library/extra/character/bls_numbers.htm
8 on this list looks pretty much the same as the 8 i posted earlier.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2010 7:39 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4510 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 234 of 348 (551884)
03-25-2010 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Peg
03-24-2010 11:39 PM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
Peg writes:
the idea that the chinese character for ship is strangely similar to the noahs ark story seems too much for some of you to handle.
No, the idea that the Chinese character for ship has anything to do with your mythology is so utterly and completely wrong that it makes my head spin like a monkey in a turbo-charged bumper car.
First off, your source at creation.com is void of any kind of academic merit whatever. Or more simply, they're full of shit.
The authors start making up made-up stuff right in the first sentence.
quote:
Legends from ancient China describe a global catastrophic flood so vast that the waters reached the sun and covered the mountains, drowning all the land-dwelling creatures, including mankind. In the midst of this global calamity, there stood a legendary hero named Nuwa who turned back the flood and helped to repopulate the world.
Well, no. 45 seconds of research reveals that Nu Wa is a female deity who made people out of globs yellow clay and (this is as close as it gets) saved the world from storms by patching up the heavens with rocks.
Here's her picture. Look like Noah to you?
It just goes on from there. Your sources lack any credentials - academic or otherwise - that would give them any credibility as anthropologists, folklorists, linguists, or even fans of John Woo movies. I repeat, they're just making up made-up things.
All of which is beside the point, anyway. As I pointed out in Message 208, every piece of archaeological, genetic, anthropological and linguistic evidence contradicts the Bible myth of the Tower of Babel. If you're going to try to support your unsupportable position, you should at least address the substance of the evidence, rather than dragging in irrelevant stuff that wouldn't matter even if it weren't fiction.

I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Peg, posted 03-24-2010 11:39 PM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 235 of 348 (551895)
03-25-2010 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by ZenMonkey
03-25-2010 12:39 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
Not to be picky but, is 'hero' strictly masculine in english ? Because you put an emphasise that Nuwa was a women, when they don't really precise the gender in the creation paper.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And also, did you get access to the references they give in order to do such a harsh critic ? Because all I see in the wiki article is a very summary version of a myth that is probably much, much longer than that. Furthermore, there seems to be no contradiction (A and non-A) between the two, as the paper accentuates the impact of the flood on humanity (repopulation), while the wiki article focuses on the impact of the flood on the earth (tilted sky etc.). This doesn't make a contradiction
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lastly, in the very wiki article you linked, I found this reference:
quote:
4) (179 - 122 BC) author: Liu An, book: Huainanzi, chapter 6: Lanmingxun (覽冥訓), account: "Nwa Mended the Sky" detail: In remote antiquity, the four poles of the Universe collapsed, and the world descended into chaos: the firmament was no longer able to cover everything, and the earth was no longer able to support itself; fire burned wild, and waters flooded the land. Fierce beasts ate common people, and ferocious birds attacked the old and the weak. Hence, Nwa tempered the five-colored stone to mend the heavens, cut off the feet of the great turtle to support the four poles, killed the black dragon to help the earth, and gathered the ash of reed to stop the flood. Variation: The four corners of the sky collapsed and the world with its nine regions split open.
This seems to indicate that there is a variation of the myth, and as a matter of fact the creo paper mentions the splitting in nine regions. So it is possible they are talking about this variation of the myth.
All this to say that I find your 45sec research to be of the very lousy kind, particularly not worthy of permitting you such harsh remarks and accusations.
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-25-2010 12:39 AM ZenMonkey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Huntard, posted 03-25-2010 3:51 AM slevesque has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 236 of 348 (551898)
03-25-2010 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by slevesque
03-25-2010 3:08 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
slevesque writes:
Not to be picky but, is 'hero' strictly masculine in english ? Because you put an emphasise that Nuwa was a women, when they don't really precise the gender in the creation paper.
I think he emphasized "woman" becuase Noah is a male. So Nu Wa being female is rather a big difference from that story to the ark tale.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by slevesque, posted 03-25-2010 3:08 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by slevesque, posted 03-25-2010 3:57 AM Huntard has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 237 of 348 (551899)
03-25-2010 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Huntard
03-25-2010 3:51 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
Okok, I was thinking maybe 'hero' was strictly pluriel in english.
Anyways there are plenty of flood myth's where the protagonist is a male, but with other differences from the biblical account. You'd expect this to happen with a couple thousands years of divergence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Huntard, posted 03-25-2010 3:51 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Huntard, posted 03-25-2010 4:25 AM slevesque has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 238 of 348 (551900)
03-25-2010 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by slevesque
03-25-2010 3:57 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
slevesque writes:
Anyways there are plenty of flood myth's where the protagonist is a male, but with other differences from the biblical account. You'd expect this to happen with a couple thousands years of divergence.
It's also what you would expect if the stories haven't got the slightest thimg to do with one another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by slevesque, posted 03-25-2010 3:57 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 239 of 348 (551912)
03-25-2010 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Dr Adequate
03-24-2010 8:52 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
i have been trying to find more chinese characters but i dont have the right software to download them
from your link i found another 'mouth'
Creation is comprised of the following components
dust + (breath of) life + (from God's) mouth + motion = Creation
Interestingly, this is the character for 'creation'. Its a very similar to the genesis account of Adams creation where he was made of dust and God blew into him the breath of life
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2010 8:52 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by JonF, posted 03-25-2010 7:45 AM Peg has replied
 Message 241 by Huntard, posted 03-25-2010 8:08 AM Peg has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 240 of 348 (551916)
03-25-2010 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Peg
03-25-2010 7:25 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
You are assuming that Chinese characters are pictographic or ideographic. You have not addressed the points raised in Message 214.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Peg, posted 03-25-2010 7:25 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Peg, posted 03-25-2010 8:19 AM JonF has replied

  
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