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Author | Topic: Meat Morality and Human/Animal/Alien Rights | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10038 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
When you are attacking and defending yourself against someone shooting at you are you really going to be empathetic to that combatant anyways? I don't know. Are you? Does seeing another person die by your own hand, regardless of it being in defense of your own life or not, trigger an empathic response? Is that empathic response lessened if you actually don't directly see that person die as a result of your actions? Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that most people have no idea where their meat comes from, how animals are slaughtered, how the carcasses are processed, etc. There are even anecdotal stories of people becoming vegetarians after seeing an animal slaughtered and butchered for the first time. In today's society we keep these processes out of sight for the most part and in doing so people have less of an emotional response to seeing slabs of meat in the store. This seems to indicate that the old saw "out of sight, out of mind" has some bit of truth to it. Could this lessened empathic response due to technology distancing actions from consequences also carry over to our alien scenario? Should we be more afraid of a fleet of robots (e.g. butcherbots) descending on to our planet than we should fleets of spacecraft filled with alien beings capable of the same type of empathic responses we have?
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Apothecus Member (Idle past 2432 days) Posts: 275 From: CA USA Joined: |
Hey greyseal.
Can a cow comprehend the depravity of its conditions without a frame of reference, assuming a cow was able to comprehend anything except eat/sleep/shit/sex? Humans are not a cows, and vice versa... To an extent, yes - without anthropomorphising, we can see stress hormones in cows, we can see flight-or-fight responses and we can tell that the animal is reacting with negative emotions to a situation. Whether the cow understands that or not is a moot point, WE do - but other than that, no. Since it's our actions creating the situation, WE bear the responsibility to say "meh, don't care" or "this is wrong". I spoke to the farmer from whom we purchase the grass-fed beef that my family eats, and he confirms what you've stated concerning "stress responses" in cattle. His is a very small enterprise, and it's amazing the amount of compassion he and his family feel for what they calls their "pets", especially considering at some point they will eat a portion of them... But he emphasizes what stress can do to animals such as this, and the difference which results from allowing cattle to lounge and relax in grassy pastures as he says they should. He says "a happy animal equates to tasty meat", although of course that is an entirely subjective statement. Tastiness is in the uhh ... tastebud of the beholder. But it is tasty, and I agree that I do feel somewhat better about eating these cows vs. mass-feedlot-wading-in-shit cows. My wife says the expense is justified, not just from a health standpoint, but from a moral standpoint as well. I'm inclined to agree... Have a good one.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2719 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Taq.
Taq writes: We can not justify this by claiming "natural is good", but we do see an inherent good in letting things advance without interference. It is a subtle difference, but I think it is a difference nonetheless. I agree: there is an important distinction there. I'm going to back off now: it seems like your argument doesn't really include the points I was trying to attack, so my attack is misdirected. At least some clarity of our respective positions came out of it. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
I don't know. Are you? Does seeing another person die by your own hand, regardless of it being in defense of your own life or not, trigger an empathic response? Maybe after the event but you are not going to have time or the objectivity to have an empathetic response when you are in a fire fight. The last thing on your mind is, "I wonder if he is all right" reffering to the adversary you are shooting at.
Is that empathic response lessened if you actually don't directly see that person die as a result of your actions? Actually I think by not being in the thick of things and not being pumped up on adreneline you may have a more objective view of the situation and may be more empathetic to the result of your actions. Just my thoughts. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Put it this way - If a highly intelligent, highly advanced far intellectually superior alien race came to Earth and started treating humans in much the same way that we treat animals (intense meat farming, milk extraction, slave labour, conducting experiments, testing cosmetics etc. etc.) on what rational and consistent basis could we tell them that what they are doing is morally wrong whilst simultaneously justifying our own treatment of intellectually inferior creatures? None. What they'd be doing wouldn't be morally wrong if what we're doing isn't. Lions eat dear, people eat cows... Aliens eat people. Well that is basically my conclusion too. But I am not sure we would be quite so philosophical about it should that happen. I guess (to contradict myself somewhat) that my actual conclusion is that aliens should treat us with some moral consideration based on our level of sentience and that we should also treat other sentient animals with more moral consideration than we actually do. I just find it hard to get too worked up about our morally inconsistent treatment of animals for purely subjective reasons. The point of this thread is simply to point out that inconsistency really.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Wud up, Straggler Very good actually. The second baby Straggler was born just over a couple of weeks ago now. Stress and drama as there inevitably always is with these things but all good in the end.
I have a question, just curious. Last night I heard a story about a guy, drunk of course, that punched a police horse. He was arrested for assaulting a police officer. Also, here in the US if you kill a police animal, you get charged equally, and sentenced equally, to having killed a human police officer. How bizzarre!
I was wondering if the law is the same in the UK for harming police animals? Well I have no idea. I have tried to look this up and cannot find anything on it. My guess is that this is not the case but then I would never have guessed it would be the case in the US either.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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I was talking about civilized beings being culinarily undesirable, not sentient beings. Apes aren't fat, lazy creatures that never use their muscles, like we are. Hey speak for yourself!!
I was looking for a culinary loophole we could slip through to avoid being devoured by aliens. Well I think that making ourselves gastronimaclly undesirable is more likely to work than a bout of moral philosophy. So you may well be onto something here.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Well that is basically my conclusion too. But I am not sure we would be quite so philosophical about it should that happen. And the deer doesn't just lay down and let the lion eat it, either.
I guess (to contradict myself somewhat) that my actual conclusion is that aliens should treat us with some moral consideration based on our level of sentience and that we should also treat other sentient animals with more moral consideration than we actually do. I think we do treat more sentient animals more morally. And the cute ones too You know of dolphin-safe tuna, right? What's up with that? Sure, there's exceptions and some people do terrible things. But in general I think there's a trend between level of sentience and how we treat them.
I just find it hard to get too worked up about our morally inconsistent treatment of animals for purely subjective reasons. The point of this thread is simply to point out that inconsistency really. I don't think many of them are that conscious that we're being very immoral. Who gets it the worst? Cows and pigs and chickens? Do they have any clue what's going on? Can they even consider an alternative? And how bad are the collective "we" really treating them? ABE:
The second baby Straggler was born just over a couple of weeks ago now. I wondered where you've been. Congradulations! Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Coulda, woulda, shoulda. You left out Buddha. Which rhymes nicely and is sort of relevant in the "all life has value" context we seem to be slipping down.
From my moral perspective, yeah, we should give greater protections and respect to the semi-sentient (apes, chimps, dolphins). I think that has to be the rational conclusion here. But like you I find it hard to get worked up about animal rights in general. Even though I think rationally I should be more morally concerned.
Where does one draw a line between semi-sentient and dumb-as-dinner? Not just dinner. Consider experimentation for exanmple. The question of sentience as related to human infants, dementia ridden geriatrics and those suffering from other brain injuries or ailments remains. We are indisputably special pleading humanity not on the basis of sentience alone. Which, as I have said, is fine but does lead to some rationally inconsistent morality if we simultaneously cite sentience as our primary criteria.
Rats? Sentient? ... pay full regard to the welfare of ... Rats? Right. Are you talking about estate agents? Or snouty nosed rodents? Only one of those will get any moral considerataion from me
My own feelings on sentience may be seen as restrictive and I’d be hard pressed to tell you what they are, except I know I will not eat something sentient so my definition will not include chicken, cows, pigs, sheep, an occasional alligator, snake, quail, cumquats and ... and ... and. You see I have indiscriminantly eaten various indistinct "bush meats" in Africa and I still find it hard to get upset by the thought I may have munched something as sentient as an ape. My only point here is that we are very inconsistent in our application of actualy caring despite our supposed rational moral criteria.
In sum, where one draws the line is a moral question I cannot even answer for myself. But it definitely does not include rats. Have you eaten rat?
I wouldn’t go so far as to say we will all be Buddhist, and frankly I wouldn’t say we have much choice in our moral progression. As our species moves towards one global community, which seems to be the direction all our history has been driven, our moral view must become more tolerant and empathic as well. Or continual cnflict pushes technology to the point that we can leave our humble litle rock and venture off to lay waste to the rest of the universe like a swarm of marauding cosmic locusts. I like your outlook better (and think it more likely) but there is at least an argument to be made for thinking that the technologically advanced aliens under consideration here might be so advanced technologically out of the same sort of needs that all too often drive our own technological progress.
As you noted, if we destroy everything then you can ignore this missive. Indeed.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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I think we do treat more sentient animals more morally. And the cute ones too Cuteness and anthromorphication definitely count for a lot. And yes we do sort of sometimes take some degree of sentience into account when it isn't too inconvenient.
You know of dolphin-safe tuna, right? What's up with that? Pigs are quite intelligent creatures apparently. But that doesn't seem to help them much.
I don't think many of them are that conscious that we're being very immoral. Now hat is an interesting point. Is a degree of sentience that allows a sense of morality (even if applied inconsistently) what we could argue with those pesky man eating aliens seperates us from the animals we eat and generally treat without moral consideration? Have we found our get out clause?
Can they even consider an alternative? And how bad are the collective "we" really treating them? The general basis of morality is "Do unto others as you have them do unto you". On this basis we treat animals horrifically really. At a speciestic level that is basically what we would be asking those aliens to do despite the fact we ourselves do not.
The second baby Straggler was born just over a couple of weeks ago now. I wondered where you've been. Congradulations! Cheers dude. I am friggin knackered.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Pigs are quite intelligent creatures apparently. But that doesn't seem to help them much. That's because they're ugly and delicious.
Is a degree of sentience that allows a sense of morality (even if applied inconsistently) what we could argue with those pesky man eating aliens seperates us from the animals we eat and generally treat without moral consideration? Have we found our get out clause? Perhaps, but it depends on the aliens. If they're blind and dumb and only perceive and communicate through telekinesis, or something, then we might be below the threshold of being sentient enough to have an appreciable morality to warrant not eating.
The general basis of morality is "Do unto others as you have them do unto you". On this basis we treat animals horrifically really. At a speciestic level that is basically what we would be asking those aliens to do despite the fact we ourselves do not. Yeah, I think you have a valid point here with this thread. If we want to say that aliens eating us is immoral, then we should acknowledge that we treat animals immorally too.
Cheers dude. I am friggin knackered. I bet. I'm not ready for kids yet.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.5 |
. . . I still find it hard to get upset by the thought I may have munched something as sentient as an ape. Ohhh Straggler. How disappointing to read that you wrote that. Gorillas, chimps, and many other endangered animals in Africa (and the world) face a bleak future. If not for yourself, at least I hope you can instill in your newborn (congrats by the way) a stronger value for the world's shrinking wildlife. Alas, I also eat meat and wear leather. So I won't browbeat you further, lest my own hypocrisy is hoisted on its own petard. But maybe you can read some stuff from my fav animal photographer and activist, Karl Ammann. Check out the gruesome photos: Page not found – The world of Karl Ammann BTW, I am a member of the Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund International. And I have tickets to see Jane Goodall (famed chimp primatologist) in Toronto April 8: http://www.janegoodall.org/...all-lecture-university-toronto (Err, I find primatology fascinating. ) Edited by dronester, : spelling
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
So there is a new Straggler Junior, or Juniorette, on the planet? Congratulations!
You have now become officially selected for by Natural Selection and have fulfilled your evolutionary function. You can die now. Or not, if you want.
You left out Buddha. No I didn't.
Are you talking about estate agents? Or snouty nosed rodents? Only one of those will get any moral considerataion from me Both and lawyers.
Have you eaten rat? In practicing her culinary arts I think I've come very close, but, no, not that I'm aware. But, then again, I can not be certain.
I like your outlook better (and think it more likely) but there is at least an argument to be made for thinking that the technologically advanced aliens under consideration here might be so advanced technologically out of the same sort of needs that all too often drive our own technological progress. True but I sure hope not. I would not like to think I would do well in a Barnaise. Congrats, Dad. Edited by AZPaul3, : 'cuz
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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. . . I still find it hard to get upset by the thought I may have munched something as sentient as an ape. Ohhh Straggler. How disappointing to read that you wrote that. Gorillas, chimps, and many other endangered animals in Africa (and the world) face a bleak future. Oh I know that I should feel worse about it and I wouldn't actively seek out such cullinary experiences for all the good reasons you point out. All of which I wholeheartedly agree with on a rational level. But at the same time I just don't feel that bad about the fact that I may well have done in the past. Rightly or wrongly it just doesn't cause me the same sort of emotional distress that I would imagine finding out I had eaten human meat might cause. We are just speciests at the end of the day. And I don't think it has that much to do with sentience whatever we often tell ourselves.
If not for yourself, at least I hope you can instill in your newborn (congrats by the way) a stronger value for the world's shrinking wildlife. I hope they have that too. In fact I hope that in years to come they tell me off in much the same way you are now.
Alas, I also eat meat and wear leather. So I won't browbeat you further, lest my own hypocrisy is hoisted on its own petard. But maybe you can read some stuff from my fav animal photographer and activist, Karl Ammann. Check out the gruesome photos: I know I know. The way we treat animals is pretty unjustifiable really.
I find primatology fascinating I think we can learn a lot more about ourselves from such studies than most are willing to recognise. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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I'm not ready for kids yet. Well I like children. But I couldn't eat a whole one.
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