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Author
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Topic: Is Jesus God?
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4948 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes: Again Peg you are the only liar here . You know over 90% of christianity does not follow that false teachers lies about what is written in the NT. That is why he was a false teacher Peg Only someone not very skilled in debating, would site opposers of Christianity to demonstrate an alleged fact about Christianity. Porphyry was right to oppose 3rd century chrisitanity because it was false. It had deviated away from what was written in the writings of the Apostles. He was able to determine this, why cant you?
EMA writes: Should we also accept and adopt his other objections to Christianity? that depends on what he was objecting to. If he was objecting to ideas that did not originate in the scriptures, then yes, we should accept them. If he was objecting to the reality of Christ, then no, we would reject that.
EMA writes: the belief that Jesus is not God, is so small relatively today (as it has always been) that it is nearly insignificant. how can you say its insignificant? The fact is that the God whom Jesus was leading people to, is almost unknown today. This is thanks to the churchs and their false teachings that Jesus himself is this God. You know who I"m talking about...the God of the Old Testament Jehovah. Jehovah is the one whom we should be worshiping but christians dont even know who he is. And the work that Jesus did in 'making known the name of God' and in his sacrifice he gave so that all people can come to be in a relationship with Jehovah has fallen on deaf ears because the churchs' have removed the name of Jehovah from their bibles and deliberately elevated Jesus above Jehovah. If its Jehovah who we are supposed to be relying on for salvation, then there are a lot of people in a very bad position before God.
1 Tim. 2:3-6 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all. EMA writes: thirdly Peg and you know this from your own experience here at this website. How many non-christians understand the Word enough, to make sense out of it. You and I watch these fellows here make comments that only a novice would make concerning, Gods Word, the eternal nature of God, inspiration, the totality of scripture, the unity of doctrine in scripture, etc etc. What makes you think this clown in the 3rd century and some knucklehead Emperor had any real interest in what the Word of God actually and truely taught. Well it seems that they did have an interest in the writings of the apostles because they must have studied them in order to make the claim that the teaching that Jesus IS God was false. People are not stupid...even people who are not followers of christ can see falsehoods and can put two and two together. You really have to give the man some credit for making an informed effort and not simply making claims that were not based on scripture. His claim about Christ NOT being Amighty God is true. Nowhere in the NT do the writers ever say that Jesus is Jehovah. Nowhere does Jesus claim to be equal to God.
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 212 of 492 (551807)
03-24-2010 10:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 211 by Peg
03-24-2010 3:32 AM
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Porphyry was right to oppose 3rd century chrisitanity because it was false. It had deviated away from what was written in the writings of the Apostles. He was able to determine this, why cant you? If over 90% of mainstream Christianity and the earliest Church was and are mistaken on this matter and Porpus was correct, would you care to give us a run down of the other things he believed concerning Christianity. Lets see what other things you believe he got correct I cant determine it because it makes little or no sense to go against the Apostles very simple language that Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but he emptied himself and took on the form of a servant. Peg, the only reason I believe this is that it is so plainly and directly stated, so that someone even as simple as myself cant miss it. I wouldnt believe that it is necessary to be baptized if it were not so simply and clearly stated, it to easy to miss
that depends on what he was objecting to. If he was objecting to ideas that did not originate in the scriptures, then yes, we should accept them. If he was objecting to the reality of Christ, then no, we would reject that. You telling me that we should trust a man that does not believe in the reality of Christ, his death burial and ressurection, then believe him about some other point of doctrine, that even Christians argue about. His judgement would be worthless and nonsense. Its like the fellows here wishing to discuss Bible doctrines and at the same time admittedly rejecting his exsistence, inspiration and intervention. Of what value is it to a Biblical discussion
how can you say its insignificant? The fact is that the God whom Jesus was leading people to, is almost unknown today. This is thanks to the churchs and their false teachings that Jesus himself is this God. You know who I"m talking about...the God of the Old Testament Jehovah. Jehovah is the one whom we should be worshiping but christians dont even know who he is. And the work that Jesus did in 'making known the name of God' and in his sacrifice he gave so that all people can come to be in a relationship with Jehovah has fallen on deaf ears because the churchs' have removed the name of Jehovah from their bibles and deliberately elevated Jesus above Jehovah. If its Jehovah who we are supposed to be relying on for salvation, then there are a lot of people in a very bad position before God. 1 Tim. 2:3-6 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all. No No Peg I was not saying the doctrine was insignifICANT . I was saying that that those that believe that Jesus was and is not God, that following are relative insignificant AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN. The reason that so many believe that Jesus is God is that it is simply to easy to miss
And the work that Jesus did in 'making known the name of God' and in his sacrifice he gave so that all people can come to be in a relationship with Jehovah has fallen on deaf ears because the churchs' have removed the name of Jehovah from their bibles and deliberately elevated Jesus above Jehovah. But from our perspective we are worshipping God Peg, by worshipping Christ, because he was Immanuel Teach us to pray "Our father who art in heaven, holy is your name" Why would you think we dont worship God or his name. Worshipping Christ is the same as worshipping God and his name Peg, he is immanuel.
His claim about Christ NOT being Amighty God is true. Nowhere in the NT do the writers ever say that Jesus is Jehovah. Nowhere does Jesus claim to be equal to God. True, because Jesus is his name as a Son of God, it should be distinquished from the the overall title or name for God before the incarnation. Since there was no Jesus in realationship to God before the incarnation, there is no reason to call Jesus by the Jehovah, when refering to him here on earth. He was in a servant state as Jesus, not stricly Jehovah but still the God that is designated as Jehovah There is reason however to refer to Jesus as Lord or God, because in total essence that is what and who he was, as the Apostle unmistakenly indicates in the simplest of terms. here is a question. What other verbage could the Apostle have used to indicate that Jesus was God and was equal to God other than to directly state that in no uncertain terms. you provide me with another term to show equality better than equal.
People are not stupid...even people who are not followers of christ can see falsehoods and can put two and two together. You really have to give the man some credit for making an informed effort and not simply making claims that were not based on scripture. Yeah your right, people are not stupid but they can be blind. I give him no credit and no credence if he rejected the reality of Christianity, and neither should you Peg thing about it. He rejected the reality of Christianity and its teachings, therre is no reason to believe he got this one right either, even if yoiu disagree with me. He didnt get it right because he didnt seriously examine the scriptures on this point or anyother no doubt. here is an example from Wiki Against the Christians (Adversus Christianos)
Of his Adversus Christianos (Against the Christians) in fifteen books, only fragments remain, as quotations adduced in order to be refuted.[14][15] In it, he famously is quoted as having said, "The Gods have proclaimed Christ to have been most pious, but the Christians are a confused and vicious sect." Counter-treatises were written by Eusebius of Caesarea, Apollinaris of Laodicea, Methodius of Olympus, and Macarius of Magnesia, but all these are lost. His implication here is that Christ nor his followers were really pious because they were confused and vicious. Now how could he have come to such a conclusion studying Jesus or Pauls words. It appears he would mess up a free lunch, even as a Philosopher Sorry peg if he can mess up such a simple thing as this I cant trust his judgement ESPECIALLY on the nature of Christ . But hey, if Porpus works for you grab on EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 211 by Peg, posted 03-24-2010 3:32 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 213 by Peg, posted 03-25-2010 1:48 AM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4948 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes: If over 90% of mainstream Christianity and the earliest Church was and are mistaken on this matter and Porpus was correct, would you care to give us a run down of the other things he believed concerning Christianity. Lets see what other things you believe he got correct im not going to discuss all of his contentions, that wasnt the point of this line of reasoning.
EMA writes: I cant determine it because it makes little or no sense to go against the Apostles very simple language that Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but he emptied himself and took on the form of a servant. Peg, the only reason I believe this is that it is so plainly and directly stated, so that someone even as simple as myself cant miss it. and i've shown you that you are reading the scripture the wrong way. the KJV reads: Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. the JB says: he did not cling to his equality with God. Now go back and look at the context. Verse 5 tells Christians to imitate Jesus in the subject being discussed. Were they being urged to consider it not robbery, but their right, to be equal with God? No way! Yet that is what you are saying is being told to christians, that we should imitate christ and not consider it robbery that we are equal with God. What John was really saying to christians was to imitate Jesus who emptied himself and took a slave’s form because he DID NOT consider himself equal with God. and this is in harmony with Jesus own words at John 14:28 The Father is greater than I. He did not believe he was equal with God at all.
EMA writes: You telling me that we should trust a man that does not believe in the reality of Christ, his death burial and ressurection, then believe him about some other point of doctrine, that even Christians argue about. His judgement would be worthless and nonsense.
I am not telling you to trust the man at all. I was using his opposition to show that what the 2nd/3rd century christians were teaching was not in harmony with the writings of the NT.
EMA writes: But from our perspective we are worshipping God Peg, by worshipping Christ, because he was Immanuel Teach us to pray "Our father who art in heaven, holy is your name" Why would you think we dont worship God or his name. Worshipping Christ is the same as worshipping God and his name Peg, he is immanuel. the identity of Jesus as Immanuel did not mean he was the incarnation of God. It was a prophetic name that would identify him as the messiah. You may recall that the Messiah was also to be called by other names such as at Isaiah 9:6 His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Yet none of these names were given to Jesus as personal names, they were all prophetic title-names by which Messiah would be identified its the same with emmanuel... it represented Gods attention would be on his people again, which it was - thru Jesus.
EMA writes: True, because Jesus is his name as a Son of God, it should be distinquished from the the overall title or name for God before the incarnation. show me the scriptures that specifically claim Jesus was an incarnation of God. even the idea of the 'god-man' did not become teaching until some three hundred years after Jesus’ day and not properly defined until A.D. 451 at the Council of Chalcedon. Its another NON BIBLICAL idea from the man of lawlessness. and just think about this...if Jesus was an incarnation of God, there would have been no need for him to be born from Mary. None whatsoever.
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Phage0070
Inactive Member
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Message 214 of 492 (551901)
03-25-2010 4:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 213 by Peg
03-25-2010 1:48 AM
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Peg writes: He did not believe he was equal with God at all. How does this mesh with Matthew 28:18? : "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (King James Version)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 213 by Peg, posted 03-25-2010 1:48 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 215 by Peg, posted 03-25-2010 6:56 AM | | Phage0070 has not replied |
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4948 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Phage0070 writes: How does this mesh with Matthew 28:18? : "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (King James Version) fairly easily actually. If someone is given something, then they didnt always have it. So Jesus is acknowledging that he has been given something which he didnt have previously. Who gave him the power and authority in heaven and on earth? It could only have been someone in a higher position of power and authority. It was his father Jehovah who did that. this ties in with Pauls words at Acts 2:34-36 "Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘JEHOVAH SAID TO MY LORD (Jesus): Sit at my right hand, 35until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.’ 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that GOD MADE HIM LORD AND CHRIST, this Jesus whom YOU impaled. So Jesus authority was given to him by God Jehovah. Jehovah put him in the position of Lord and Christ. This shows that they are not the same individual but two separate and distinct individuals, one with the ultimate authority and one that has been given authority. Edited by Peg, : bolded scripture. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 214 by Phage0070, posted 03-25-2010 4:54 AM | | Phage0070 has not replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 216 of 492 (551928)
03-25-2010 10:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 213 by Peg
03-25-2010 1:48 AM
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
im not going to discuss all of his contentions, that wasnt the point of this line of reasoning. A couple would be sufficient I thought as much. The reason you wont discuss them is because you know he was so far off base he is not to be believed concerning most anything connected with Christianity You never explained how according to him, Christ, and Christians were unpious, confused and vicious
the KJV reads: Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. the JB says: he did not cling to his equality with God. I guess you knew where I was going to go with this, so Ill make it even simpler. Take a look at the two versions above and tell me what each one is saying, even the causal reader cannot mistake what is being taught. Either the Apostle was completley uninformed, CONFUSED, lying or he was guided by the Holy Spirit. I asked you to give me another word that the Apostle could have used and how could he have put it in anyother way, to say exacally what the verses above say, WITHOUT MISTAKE. Tell me what they would be Peg Only with the greatest amount of twisting and manuvering can one come up with your following analysis and explanation. Paul is not saying anything close to what you are trying to imply. Lets look
Now go back and look at the context. Verse 5 tells Christians to imitate Jesus in the subject being discussed. Were they being urged to consider it not robbery, but their right, to be equal with God? No way! Yet that is what you are saying is being told to christians, that we should imitate christ and not consider it robbery that we are equal with God. What John was really saying to christians was to imitate Jesus who emptied himself and took a slave’s form because he DID NOT consider himself equal with God. and this is in harmony with Jesus own words at John 14:28 The Father is greater than I. He did not believe he was equal with God at all. No where in this passage is the Apostle suggesting, indicating or implying that Christians should NOT consider themselves equal with God, because there IS some fear on the Apostles part that they may indeed think that. This is simply a bit of manuvering on your part to ignore the force of the statemnet by the Apostle. The grammatical construction of the verse does not even allow such a ridiculous conclusion, with which you are charging me. Actually just the opposite of what you said is the truth. Watch this, he says Even though Jesus IS EQUAL to God, he DID NOT consider it a thing to be GRASPED (not grasped at, as you suggest), but emptied himself of that status to take on the form of a servant. Equality means equality. there are no other words he could have used to make the meaning more of the meaning. if there are then simply provide them No Jew of that day would have considered themselves equal to God, therefore there would be no need to warn them against it. Pauls estimation would however make perfect sense, if as he indicates Jesus being on an equlity with God, was not something to be held on to, but extreme humility demanded otherwise.
and this is in harmony with Jesus own words at John 14:28 The Father is greater than I.
He did not believe he was equal with God at all. As a servant living as a human being and putting aside his deity in its absoluteness, BEING BORN AS A human son, meant living as a human being, which would mean in this state he was less than the father. A term that has no meaning before the incarnation, because there is simply God, EQUAL IN AL ITS PARTS. "He was MADE alittle lower than the angels" You simply cannot excape the fact Peg that verses have priorities, they help explain other verses. if there were not other verses making it abundantly clear that Jesus is God, you may be correct about the above quote. But there are other verses and your conclusion, not to mention your analysis of Philipians, is not to be believed even by a fifth grader. The versions you quoted dont even support your contention
the identity of Jesus as Immanuel did not mean he was the incarnation of God. It was a prophetic name that would identify him as the messiah. You may recall that the Messiah was also to be called by other names such as at Isaiah 9:6 His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Yet none of these names were given to Jesus as personal names, they were all prophetic title-names by which Messiah would be identified its the same with emmanuel... it represented Gods attention would be on his people again, which it was - thru Jesus. Then, just when I think your reasoning abilities and exegesis can get no worse, Bam, you surprise me again here is a test for you peg, go through the New Testament and see if you cannot find each one of the discriptions in Isa, not in the New testament. Here is an example Isa, Eternal father NT, "Before Abraham was IAM Isa, Mighty God N.T. "In him dwelt all the FULNESS of the Godhead bodily. that is in his body he was still fully God, except for WILLINGLY becoming a servant, which has to do with ATTITUDE, not stricly essence NT, "he thought it not robbery to be equal with God, he did not think it a thing to be HELD ON TO, he put it aside", so to speak this according to any reliable translation
show me the scriptures that specifically claim Jesus was an incarnation of God. Ill ask you the question again, please provide me with another word, phrase, concept or idea that would make Plilipians any simpler or make equal not equal, other than you clear rearranging of the Apostles words Had the Jews been in Pauls presence when he spoke or wrote these words, he would have been a dead man, had the Lord chose not to intervine, had this actually been spoken in thier presence. Remember Peg Pauls words are Christs words. "Do not concern yourself about what to say when you are brought before kings and rulers, it will be given to you in that hour"
even the idea of the 'god-man' did not become teaching until some three hundred years after Jesus’ day and not properly defined until A.D. 451 at the Council of Chalcedon. Its another NON BIBLICAL idea from the man of lawlessness. You are way to good a bible teacher in most areas Peg to know this is a flat misrepresentation of the facts of Church history. i have already and i will not address it again, about what MOST of the earliest followers accept as truth in this area. Shame on you here you say it did not even becaome a teaching until whenever, earlier you have Paul teaching people that Christ is not God. Why would he need to make them aware of something they were not even considering in the first place. Couldnt he just have said Jesus who was before any man humbled himself and become a servant. No Peg Pauls verbage and intimation and direct statement is not to be missed Some interesting side notes in the same vein and with regard to the same subject Is Jesus Really Michael the Archangel? - Apologetics Press 'Is Jesus really Michael the Archangel?' by Eric Lyon
"Michael the archangel is mentioned only five times in the Bible (Daniel 10:13,21; 12:1; Jude 9; Revelation 12:7), and yet never do these passages indicate that he is to be equated with the preincarnate Christ, nor with the ascended Jesus. First Thessalonians 4:16 also alludes to an archangel, and, although the name Michael is not mentioned, this is the passage Jehovah’s Witnesses frequently cite as proof of Jesus being the archangel. Concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Paul wrote: For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (emp. added). Supposedly, since Jesus is described as descending from heaven with the voice of an archangel, then He must be the archangel Michael. However, this verse does not teach that Jesus is an archangel, but that at His Second Coming He will be accompanied with the voice of an archangel. Just as He will be attended with a shout and with the trumpet of God, so will He be accompanied with the voice of an archangel. Question: If Jesus’ descension from heaven with the voice of an archangel makes Him (as Jehovah’s Witnesses claim) the archangel Michael, then does His descent with the trumpet of God not also make Him God? Jehovah’s Witnesses reject this latter conclusion, yet they accept the first. Such inconsistency is one proof of their erroneous teachings about Jesus. One of the strongest arguments against Jesus being an angel is found in the book of Hebrews. In chapter one, the writer of Hebrews showed the superiority of Jesus over the angelic beings, and contrasted Him with them. For to which of the angels did He ever say: You are My Son, today I have begotten You? And again: I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: Let all the angels of God worship Him. And of the angels He says: Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire. But to the Son He says: Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions. And: You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak You will fold them up, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail. But to which of the angels has He ever said: Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool? (1:5-13). Jesus’ superiority over the angels is seen in the fact that the Father spoke to Jesus as His special begotten Son to Whom He gave the seat of honor at His right hand (1:5,13). Furthermore, the writer of Hebrews indicated that God commanded all angels to worship Jesus (1:6; cf. Revelation 5:11-13; Philippians 2:10). Yet, if Jesus were an angel, how could He accept the worship of other lesser angels when, according to Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9, angels do not accept worship, but rather preach the worship of God, and no other? Hebrews chapter one is a death knell to the idea of Jesus, the Son of God, being Michael, the archangel. Interestingly, Charles Taze Russell, the founder of The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, admitted such when he stated in The Watchtower magazine near the end of its inaugural year: Hence it is said, ‘let all the angels of God worship him’: (that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God) (1879, p. 4, emp. added). Sadly, even though Russell (the Society’s president for over 30 years) rejected the idea of Jesus being Michael the archangel, Jehovah’s Witnesses today hold firmly to this doctrine. The writer of Hebrews returned to the subject of Jesus’ superiority over angels in chapter two, saying, He [God] has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels (2:5). To whom will the world be in subjection? Scripture indicates that it would be Jesus, the appointed heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2). All authority has been given, not to any angel, but to Jesus (Matthew 28:18). All angels, authorities, and powers have been made subject to Him (1 Peter 3:22). In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him (Hebrews 2:8, NIV, emp. added). Jesus, therefore, is not Michael, the archangel, for it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come (Hebrews 2:5, RSV). One final proof that Jesus is not Michael the archangel actually comes from one of the five passages in which Michael’s name is found in ScriptureJude 9. According to Jude: Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’ Whereas Michael would not dare pronounce a railing judgment against the devil (cf. 2 Peter 2:11), Jesus once declared about Satan: He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it (John 8:44). Jesus did not approach the subject of rebuking Satan with the same hesitation as godly angels like Michael. Jesus, as Lord of heaven and Earth (Matthew 28:18), boldly called the devil a murderer and liar, and even went so far as to declare that there is no truth in him. The Son of God obviously is not Michael the archangel. I find it extremely puzzling how Jehovah’s Witnesses can conclude that there is no biblical proof of Jesus being deity, and yet at the same time allege that [t]here is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return (Watchtower, 1969, p. 307, emp. added). Where is the evidence? There is none. Jesus is not Michael the archangel; rather, He is exactly Who the apostle John said He was (John 1:1,14), Who Thomas said He was (John 20:28), and even Who His enemies accused Him of making Himself (John 5:18; 10:33). Jesus is God!" This seems pretty self-explanatory from a scriptural position Is your intimation here about the man of lawlessness an indication you are willing to contie our discussion of sin in another thread, as well?
and just think about this...if Jesus was an incarnation of God, there would have been no need for him to be born from Mary. None whatsoever. WHY? EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 213 by Peg, posted 03-25-2010 1:48 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 217 by Peg, posted 03-26-2010 4:40 AM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4948 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes: No where in this passage is the Apostle suggesting, indicating or implying that Christians should NOT consider themselves equal with God
So we should consider ourselves equal to God too? Really??? are you sure?
EMA writes: he says Even though Jesus IS EQUAL to God, he DID NOT consider it a thing to be GRASPED (not grasped at, as you suggest), but emptied himself of that status to take on the form of a servant. thats where you are wrong...the verse does not say Jesus was equal with God, it says 'even though he existed in Gods form...he did not consider equality as something to be grasped' Existing in Gods 'form' does not mean he is God. God is a spirit and there are millions more angels who also exist in Gods form....and like Jesus do not consider themselves to be equal with God.
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 218 of 492 (552074)
03-26-2010 10:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 217 by Peg
03-26-2010 4:40 AM
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes:
No where in this passage is the Apostle suggesting, indicating or implying that Christians should NOT consider themselves equal with God Peg writes; So we should consider ourselves equal to God too?
Really??? are you sure? Yeah Yeah, that was a mis statement by myself. Your are very aware that I meant, No where in the passage is the Apostle suggesting that we are equal to God, no where in the pasage is he indicating that it is necessary to demonstrate humility, by indicating we should not compare ourselves to God. it wwould be pointless to such since everyone was aware of this in the first place Nor was in necessary for the Apostle to tell everyone that Jesus wasnt equal to God to demonstrate his humility, because if he wasnt God as you suggest and this was the thinking at that time, it would not be necessary to reference that fact. it would make no sense to do that , correct?
Really??? are you sure? yes I am absolutely sure we are not equal to God. But I am absolutley positive Jesus is equal to God. isnt it interesting that you cant find a translation that says what you are twisting it to indicate
thats where you are wrong...the verse does not say Jesus was equal with God, it says 'even though he existed in Gods form...he did not consider equality as something to be grasped' This is simply another slick manever to resist the force of the passage. No where else in scripture does it state or indicate that Man or Angel are equal to God in any Form, shape or fashion As a matter of fact it is very easy to see from the rest of scripture exacally what the Apostle means in this passage. lets take a tour of the passages concerning God and Christ and see if we see any comparisons , that would be EXCLUSIVE TO CHRIST and that would exclude Man or Angel We have already done this with Michael, so lets look at the rest
Jesus is God by Matt Slick "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me," (Isaiah 43:10). JESUS IS GOD, "YAHWEH" John 1:3, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." Col. 1:16-17, "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Creator Job 33:4, "The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Isaiah 40:28, "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom." Rev. 1:17, "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’" Rev. 2:8, "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again." Rev. 22:13, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." First and Last Isaiah 41:4, "Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD -- with the first of them and with the last -- I am he." Isaiah 44:6, "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." Isaiah 48:12, "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last." John 8:24, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (NKJV) John 8:58, "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" See Exodus 3:14 John 13:19, "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He." I AM "ego eimi" Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’" Isaiah 43:10, "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me." See also Deut. 32:39 2 Tim. 4:1, "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..." 2 Cor. 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." Judge Joel 3:12, "Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side." Rom. 14:10, "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat." Matt. 2:2, "...Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him." Luke 23:3, "So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied." See also John 19:21 King Jer. 10:10, "But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath." Isaiah 44:6-8, "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." See also Psalm 47 John 8:12,"When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." Luke 2:32, "a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel." See also John 1:7-9 Light Psalm 27:1, "The LORD is my light and my salvation -- whom shall I fear?" Isaiah 60:20 ,"our sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end." 1 John 1:5, "God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." 1 Cor. 10:4, "...for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ." See also 1 Pet. 2:4-8. Rock Deut. 32:4, "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he." See also 2 Sam. 22:32 and Isaiah 17:10. John 4:42, "They said to the woman, ‘We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.’" 1 John 4:14, "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world." Savior Isaiah 43:3, "For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior" Isaiah 45:21, "...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me." John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." Heb. 13:20, "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep," See also John 10:14,16; 1 Pet. 2:25 Shepherd Psalm 23:1, "The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want." Isaiah 40:11, "He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young." Unless otherwise noted, all quotations are from the NASB Now isnt this interesting, there is not one single point about the nature of God himself that cannot also be attributed to Jesus Christ. Except those that have to do with his servant state Now in honesty Peg can we take the same book and do this with any human being or any of the millions of angels, as you suggest have the form of God? I doubt it the form and equality spoken of in Philipians goes way past spirit material or spiritual existence as you can plainly see. If this is all there were to Christ you may have had a point. That is not Pauls or the rest of the NTs point, exclusively we cant just take the verses that suit our purposes peg EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 217 by Peg, posted 03-26-2010 4:40 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 219 by Peg, posted 03-26-2010 7:31 PM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4948 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes: yes I am absolutely sure we are not equal to God. But I am absolutley positive Jesus is equal to God. So lets say that Jesus was equal to God, then he must have known that he was equal to God, right? And as Jesus was the one giving Paul his words to write, and as you say, Paul was saying that Jesus was equal to God then please explain this... right before Paul apparently tells us Jesus is equal to God, he says... Vs 5 "Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus So, what is the mental attitude Paul wants us to imitate? Is it that we are equal God because Jesus was equal to God? or is it something else you havent mentioned yet??? Remember, i am keeping the scripture in context here...which was to imitate christ in what Paul was about to explain...here it is again in its entirety.
Phillipians 2:5-7 writes: 5Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men EMA writes: This is simply another slick manever to resist the force of the passage. No where else in scripture does it state or indicate that Man or Angel are equal to God in any Form, shape or fashion Ok, what is Gods form?
Gods form is as the following scritpures show writes:
John 4:24"God is a SPIRIT, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth" 1Timothy 1:17"Now to the King of eternity, incorruptible, INVISIBLE, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen So God is a spirit, he is invisible to human eyes because he exists in a form that has no physical traits. Just as the angels exist in the form of spirits with no physical traits and just as some christians will be transformed into the same image.
Men & Angles described as being in Gods form,spirit writes:
2Corinthians 3:17-18 "Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. 18And all of us (Christians), while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are TRANSFORMED INTO THE SAME IMAGE from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit" Hebrews 1:7 "Also, with reference to the angels he says: And he makes his angels SPIRITS, and his public servants a flame of fire. Hebrews 1:14 "Are they (angels) not all SPIRITS for public service" EMA writes: Now in honesty Peg can we take the same book and do this with any human being or any of the millions of angels, as you suggest have the form of God? I doubt it Yes we can and I just did. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Sparcz1978
Junior Member (Idle past 5133 days) Posts: 12 Joined: 03-27-2010
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Message 220 of 492 (552181)
03-27-2010 4:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 219 by Peg
03-26-2010 7:31 PM
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Look the difference between God and Jesus according to the Bible God the Father God is not a man Hoseas11:9, Numbers 23:19 There is Only One God Deut. 4:35, Deut. 4:39, 1 Tim 1:17 God does not recognize any other god Isaiah 44:8, 45:21, Exodus 20:3, Deut. 32:39 God is almighty Genesis 35:11 1 Cor. 11:3 / Revelation 3:12 God has no beginning Psalm 90:2 God is Spirit, not seen by any one @ anytime John 4:23-24, Phil 3:2-3, Jn.5:37 Lordship is Inherent Psalm 100:3 God does not change in form or shape Malachi 3:6, Acts 1:10-11 God raised Jesus from death Col. 2:12, peter 1:20, romans 10:9 God is Creator alone Isaiah 40:28 Jesus Christ Son of God Jesus is a Man John 8:40, Mt. 27:19, roman 5:15 Acts 13:17-38 Acts 2:22, Mt. 4:3-7, Mt. 27:46, Mark 15:34, Luke4:4, Revelation 1:17-20, 3:11-13, 3:21 Jesus recognized only one God the Father Only Mt. 27:46, Revelation 3:12 Jesus Died Mt. 27:50, Revelation 1:18 Jesus can do nothing by himself/ under by God John 5:30, 1 Cor. 15:28 Jesus have Flesh and Bones, seen and touch 2 John 1:7, Luke 24:38-39, Phil.3:3-4, Lordship came from God Acts 2:36, John 7:16, 1 John 14:23-24 Jesus is not Equal with God phil.2:5-13, John 14:28 know were he came from john 13:3, 11:42, 8:42-43 Jesus created by God Col 1:15, Heb. 1:4
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 219 by Peg, posted 03-26-2010 7:31 PM | | Peg has replied |
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Sparcz1978
Junior Member (Idle past 5133 days) Posts: 12 Joined: 03-27-2010
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
The statement of Thomas about Jesus Christ is not valid, because he is in a state of Doubt and amazement or disbelief. I call him Doubting Thomas. Look at the Bible... look for the book of Thomas or Gospel of Thomas... is there anyone gospel of thomas? think why Thomas did not have any Gospel....
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Sparcz1978
Junior Member (Idle past 5133 days) Posts: 12 Joined: 03-27-2010
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
God Said Isaiah 43:10, "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me." Exodus 20:2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall no other God before Me. Jesus Said Matthew 27:46 (New International Version) 46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[a] lama sabachthani?"which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[b] John 4:23-24 (New International Version) 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." John 8:40 (New International Version) "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[a] do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. John 17:3 (New International Version) 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. The Apostles Said 1 Timothy 2:5 (New International Version) 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Corinthians 8:6 (New International Version) 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. Matthew 27:19 (New International Version) 19While Pilate was sitting on the judge's seat, his wife sent him this message: "Don't have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him." Evil also know that there is only one God James 2:19 (New International Version) 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatand shudder. Matthew 4:2-10 (New International Version) 2After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." 4Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'[a]" 5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: " 'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'[b]" 7Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'[c]" 8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9"All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." 10Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'[d]" if Jesus, the apostles and Evil believed that there is only one God the Father. anything to argue about it?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 221 by Sparcz1978, posted 03-27-2010 4:51 AM | | Sparcz1978 has not replied |
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4948 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Spartcz1978 i agree with you wholeheartedly. Its EMA who believes Jesus is God, not me.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 220 by Sparcz1978, posted 03-27-2010 4:40 AM | | Sparcz1978 has not replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 224 of 492 (552289)
03-28-2010 1:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 219 by Peg
03-26-2010 7:31 PM
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
So lets say that Jesus was equal to God, then he must have known that he was equal to God, right? And as Jesus was the one giving Paul his words to write, and as you say, Paul was saying that Jesus was equal to God then please explain this... right before Paul apparently tells us Jesus is equal to God, he says... Vs 5 "Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus So, what is the mental attitude Paul wants us to imitate? Is it that we are equal God because Jesus was equal to God? or is it something else you havent mentioned yet??? Let me say first, Peg from down under over at Melbourne thanks for continuing this very Biblical discussion, I think we are all enjoying it and I hope it branches into many more areas of specific beliefs Secondly, let me say that "Mental Attitude" is redundant, as all attitudes are mental
Is it that we are equal God because Jesus was equal to God? or is it something else you havent mentioned yet??? No, this is a point to demonstrate the main point, which is the point of humility in the passage. Us being unequal to God or Christ being equal to God is secondary to the point of humility, which is the main point. They are illustrations to demonstrate that point. we miss this the same way we miss the point that the parable of the prodigal son is not about the son, but God the father, waiting patiently and forgiving upon his return.
Ok, what is Gods form? It should be simple enough to see that the expressios "In the form of God" and thought it not robbery to be equal with God are excally the same. Alot of translations say "Who was in very form God", did not think "equality with God"was something to be grasped" IOW the two expressions are exacally the same and they compliment eachother, meaning the samething. Gods form is whatever God is in totality, not simply Spirit, but eternality as an example, Christ is described in Revelations, "I Am the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega, the same as God in the Old Testament The point is simply that the rest of the scriptures, the ones I provided back up this point, that while all of us are created in Gods image and have a spirit, Christ MATCHES Gods nature, character and form in its totality, this is Pauls intimation and direct statement. If the rest of the scriptures did not support this fact, you may have a case, but happily they do
So God is a spirit, he is invisible to human eyes because he exists in a form that has no physical traits. Just as the angels exist in the form of spirits with no physical traits and just as some christians will be transformed into the same image. Can God not transform Himself and Angels into human form? Could God not live as a human in human form EMA writes: Now in honesty Peg can we take the same book and do this with any human being or any of the millions of angels, as you suggest have the form of God? I doubt it Peg writes: Yes we can and I just did. Whoa, I think you missed the whole point. It was not, do humans and angels have soms attributes of God, spirit etc, It was can we take the scriptures and demonstrate that humans and angels have the exact details as Christ to God Do you remember me saying that it is interesting that every characteristic attributed to God in the Old Testament is also attributed to Christ If we take all the scriptures has to say about Christ as God and man, the passages that seem ot limit his characteristics to God, then apply the ones that make him exacally like God, then we can see that those have to do with his servant state as a human "In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead while he was in his body" "I can do nothing without the father" Since the rest of the scriptures make it clear he possess all the attributes of God, his existence as a human being was RESPECTFULLY limited by he himself before his incarnation. he chose to empty himself of this status to fullfil a mission, thereby becoming an obedient servant, while maintaing his equality as God He as God, by God and for God and humanity demonstrated the GREATEST OF ALL HUMILITY EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 219 by Peg, posted 03-26-2010 7:31 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 225 by Peg, posted 03-28-2010 5:17 AM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4948 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes: No, this is a point to demonstrate the main point, which is the point of humility in the passage. Us being unequal to God or Christ being equal to God is secondary to the point of humility, which is the main point. They are illustrations to demonstrate that point. If paul was making a simple point about humility, why would he need to mention that Jesus 'may have been' equal to God? Your claim is that paul is telling christians that Jesus WAS equal to God...so tell me what Jesus attitude was? Because If Jesus attitude is that he WAS equal to God, then the whole humily argument goes out the window because humility is a recognition of ones limitations....something Jesus would not have had and therefore no need to be humble. So the question remains, what was the attitude that christians were being told to imiatate?
EMA writes: The point is simply that the rest of the scriptures, the ones I provided back up this point, that while all of us are created in Gods image and have a spirit, Christ MATCHES Gods nature, character and form in its totality, this is Pauls intimation and direct statement. and yet you happily use a rendering that indicates that while Jesus existed in Gods form, he did not consider equality as somethign to be grasped. Sounds more like Paul is saying that Jesus did not try to grasp at equality with God as opposed to believing he actually was equal to God.
EMA writes: Can God not transform Himself and Angels into human form? Could God not live as a human in human form No he couldnt and he even tells humans this very fact. He had to protect Moses from viewing him because no one can view God.
Exodus 33:18-20 "At this he said: Cause me to see, please, your glory. 19But he said: I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Jehovah before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy. 20And he added: You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live. And Jehovah said further: ‘Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen.’ John 1:18 "No man has seen God at any time" In harmony with what Jehovah told Moses and what the apostle John said, Moses did not see a material form of God. Yes, he saw the afterglow of the divine presence but even from that he had to be protected. And if Jesus was God, then John must not have been an inspired writer because he certainly got this very wrong.
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