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Author Topic:   How many churches are necessary?
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2619 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 31 of 65 (552454)
03-29-2010 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
12-22-2009 3:45 PM


I think that you've got pretty much your answer. Two of them, really, not mutually exclusive.

The first reason is superficial. You've got a bunch of churches in your town for the same reason that here in Portland we have so many Thai restaurants and strip clubs. People just like to have choices.

The second reason goes to a deeper part of human nature. As evidenced by each every one of the Christian posters on this thread, Christians (except maybe the softie liberal ones) love to play the game of "I know the Truth, it's those other guys who are All Wrong." It must be because they believe that they're playing for the ultimate stakes of their Eternal Souls, rather than just who's football club is best, that makes it so much more satisfying to know that they're on the winning side. After all, the losers get to burn in Hell. That must make being right feel really good.

Plus, no one can ever prove that you're wrong, since you're arguing about made-up stuff anyway.


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon

What's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.
-Steven Dutch


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by hooah212002, posted 12-22-2009 3:45 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6040
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 32 of 65 (552456)
03-29-2010 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Peg
03-29-2010 7:42 AM


The way to determine that is to look at the first century congregation that the apostles established and look at the things they did and the way they did them and the way they were organized, you should be able to see if your church is practicing the way christianity was in its original form.

That is pretty impressive. The only "evidence" for the first century church is the writings of Paul and they really do not touch very much on the organization or how they do things. There are no first century writings that speak about the happenings in any of the gospels. I find it very odd that you think you can pull the behaviors of the original followers out of the text of the bible. Also, delusional that you think your and your churches interpretations or the right " ones.

If it is, then its certainly not arrogance to state as much.

As you have no evidence, just interpretations, then yes it is arrogance.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Peg, posted 03-29-2010 7:42 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Peg, posted 03-29-2010 8:25 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6040
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 33 of 65 (552457)
03-29-2010 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Hyroglyphx
03-29-2010 8:42 AM


Avatar
For most people avatars are a bit different. They are an online representation of oneself. Many people spend a lot of time making sure their avatars reflect something of themselves.

If one of the christian bands you listened to were associated worldwide with a symbol would you use it as your avatar? No where in my post did I make any accusations that she was disingenuous. I just feel it is odd that such a fundamentalist would use the symbol of an obviously atheist group.

The point is I am not saying she shouldn't use it. I thought she should know, as she probably didn't, that her avatar is a symbol for a notoriously atheistic group. No more, no less.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2010 8:42 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2010 9:58 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6040
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 34 of 65 (552460)
03-29-2010 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Peg
03-29-2010 7:30 AM


Re: Just wondering
do you think because i'm religious i dont like good music?

Do you think because im religious i condemn non believers?

Not at all. Did I at any point in my post make any such accusations?

My group is about worshiping God the way he directs...that is all. Its also about inviting non believers to come and do the same

Don't do us any favors.

its not up to us to condemn them for the choice that God gives them.

Gee how big of you.

Do you have any idea how pompous, selfrighteous and rude those comments sound to people that do not have your beliefs?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Peg, posted 03-29-2010 7:30 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 35 of 65 (552462)
03-29-2010 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Theodoric
03-29-2010 9:38 AM


Re: Avatar
For most people avatars are a bit different. They are an online representation of oneself.

Would it be any more strange than if you were a Christian but also a Red Sox fan? Why can't she both a Christian and a Pink Floyd fan? Why does she have to be one-dimensional and be compartmentalized in to what conforms to your standard rather than her own?

The argument seems very trivial.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2010 9:38 AM Theodoric has responded

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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 36 of 65 (552463)
03-29-2010 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by ZenMonkey
03-29-2010 9:17 AM


The second reason goes to a deeper part of human nature. As evidenced by each every one of the Christian posters on this thread, Christians (except maybe the softie liberal ones) love to play the game of "I know the Truth, it's those other guys who are All Wrong." It must be because they believe that they're playing for the ultimate stakes of their Eternal Souls, rather than just who's football club is best, that makes it so much more satisfying to know that they're on the winning side. After all, the losers get to burn in Hell. That must make being right feel really good.

That is pretty much what I was trying to point out. Perhaps I underestimated the willfulness of the christian posters in admittance of that fact. I suppose I didn't realize they were so open about it.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersófor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinóconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-29-2010 9:17 AM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6040
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 37 of 65 (552466)
03-29-2010 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Hyroglyphx
03-29-2010 9:58 AM


Re: Avatar
OK one comment and lets let it die Hyro.

Would it be any more strange than if you were a Christian but also a Red Sox fan?

The Red Sox have made no pronouncements whatsoever on the subject. If they came out tomorrow and made some overtly christian comments, I would drop them as my avatar posthaste. My avatars always represent something personal. My other avatar is Theodoric the Great, Ostrogoth king, that in a sense put the final nail in the coffin of the western roman empire. I find him a very intriguing figure, so I have a personal relationship to that avatar. Seemingly he was enlightened9for the time) also.
In 519, when a mob had burned down the synagogues of Ravenna, Theodoric ordered the town to rebuild them at its own expense.

Source
It does seem strange to(to me) to have an avatar that represents the antithesis of ones beliefs.
Why can't she both a Christian and a Pink Floyd fan? Why does she have to be one-dimensional and be compartmentalized in to what conforms to your standard rather than her own?

Never said she couldn't. To use their defining image does strike me(again personal opinion) as strange. I told you and her why in an earlier post. If you disagree with it so be it.
I have never attacked her for using the avatar, I have not tried to compartmentalize her. As I have stated(now numerous times) I(me, myself, not saying any one else has to feel this way) find it strange(this is a personal opinion, nothing else) such a rabid fundamentalist would use an avatar from such a well known atheist group. People do have and should have opinions.

We are very off-topic here, so lets let this die. So if you want to fight find another thread.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2010 9:58 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 65 (552479)
03-29-2010 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
12-22-2009 3:45 PM


Suffice to say, why is there a necessity for soooo frikkin many churches, all reading the same book? Is there that much confusion as to what jesus said? Is there that much confusion as to what you are supposed to do to please god? Would not just one church be sufficient?

Nah, its not that. Preachers gotta eat too! It can be a lucrative business running them churches. Think of all the job loss if there was only one chruch. It'd ruin the economy!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by hooah212002, posted 12-22-2009 3:45 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 39 of 65 (552486)
03-29-2010 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by New Cat's Eye
03-29-2010 12:14 PM


It'd ruin the economy!

All churches do is suck money from the economy anyways. Look at Greece. They wised up and are going to start taxing churches. Of course, their economy IS in the toilet.

I know you were being sarcastic, but I had to say it.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersófor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinóconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-29-2010 12:14 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 40 of 65 (552504)
03-29-2010 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Theodoric
03-27-2010 4:23 PM


So who gets to choose the dogma? The reason for the large number of churches is that there are so many interpretations of your bible. Is your way of interpreting the correct way? Should all christians believe what you believe?

Apparently this is so. But actually there is a deeper reason.

Jesus is a living Person. And division occur because Christians do not remain in the realm and sphere of that living Person. They do not hold fast the living Head, Christ.

The enjoyment of the living Person of Christ is the most important factor of the unity of Christians.

Teachings, doctrines, dogmas, may be right or wrong. They may be good or not too good. But they are not living.

Christ the Lord is a living Presence and holding fast and firmly to the living Person of Jesus is more important to the unity of the church than everyone having exactly the same teachings.

Having said that, it needs some balance. Many many things Christians can be general about and accomodating with fellow believers.

A few things we should be willing to die for. If you believe we should baptize frontwards and I believe we should baptize backwards, whoever has the most enjoyment of the living Person of Jesus should be able to be accomodating to the other. It is not crucial.

But if you want to be called "brother" and you deny that Jesus is Divinity or that the Bible is the word of God, then we will have a problem. The divinity of Christ is not something I will be accomodating with.

There are only about four or five matters in the New Testament that cased someone to be put OUT of the local church. Only a few things that are so crucial that Christians should not be general about. For instance, that Christ is God incarnate or that Christ died a redemptive death and rose from the dead or that the Bible is the word of God.

But there are a great many other things that we can be accomodating and tolerating of in ONE city wide church. They are not sufficient reasons to leave one church and establish another.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2010 4:23 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 41 of 65 (552510)
03-29-2010 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jaywill
03-29-2010 3:16 PM


A few things we should be willing to die for......

.....But if you want to be called "brother" and you deny that Jesus is Divinity or that the Bible is the word of God, then we will have a problem. The divinity of Christ is not something I will be accomodating with. ........

I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with the implications of your statement....Are you condoning violence against your fellow man for having a different belief than yours?


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersófor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinóconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jaywill, posted 03-29-2010 3:16 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jaywill, posted 03-29-2010 6:44 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 42 of 65 (552531)
03-29-2010 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by hooah212002
03-29-2010 4:09 PM


I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with the implications of your statement....Are you condoning violence against your fellow man for having a different belief than yours?

Interesting that you should read my comment that way. I suppose it is understandable.

No, I do not mean we should be willing to kill for. I meant we should be willing to stand firmly for even if it mean we be killed.

Now, I have not had such an experience so I am not suggesting I have confidence in myself for such a steadfastness. I believe that the grace of God would uphold me.

No advocating of violence was intended.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by hooah212002, posted 03-29-2010 4:09 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 43 of 65 (552532)
03-29-2010 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jaywill
03-29-2010 3:16 PM


Laodicean or Philadelphian?
Jesus is a living Person.

It's true, he works at my favorite taco stand. Helluva guy, too. He makes my fish taco's with just a pinch of cilantro.

The enjoyment of the living Person of Christ is the most important factor of the unity of Christians.

*wonders why so many are so miserable*

But if you want to be called "brother" and you deny that Jesus is Divinity or that the Bible is the word of God, then we will have a problem. The divinity of Christ is not something I will be accomodating with.

Sounds like maybe you are not much different than the others. So much division in the church because each think their way is "The Way." On the surface Peg and Buz are one and the same, but dig deeper and they are almost ideological opposites.

Who is the Laodicean church? Who is the Philadelphian?


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston
This message is a reply to:
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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 44 of 65 (552549)
03-29-2010 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jaywill
03-29-2010 6:44 PM


I find it odd that you all are willing to die for religion. This natural life is the only one you have.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersófor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinóconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jaywill, posted 03-29-2010 6:44 PM jaywill has not yet responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 45 of 65 (552550)
03-29-2010 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Theodoric
03-29-2010 9:30 AM


Theodoric writes:

The only "evidence" for the first century church is the writings of Paul and they really do not touch very much on the organization or how they do things.

are you kidding?

this comment shows that you really havnt studied the NT much at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2010 9:30 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2010 8:32 PM Peg has not yet responded

    
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