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Author Topic:   Is Jesus God?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 241 of 492 (552769)
03-31-2010 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by kbertsche
03-30-2010 11:34 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
kbertsche writes:
I don't think there is any passage that says this clearly enough to avoid dispute. But my vote would be for Daniel 3:24-25:
the translators will capitalize GOD or LORD if the original passages have the tetragrammaton (YHWY)
so the fact that it is not capitalized signifies that the tetragramaton was not in the original text and therefore not a reference to God Almighty.
2ndly, the account goes on to say that it was an angel who was with them
Daniel 3:28 writes:
Neb‧u‧chad‧nez′zar was answering and saying: Blessed be the God of Sha′drach, Me′shach and A‧bed′ne‧go, who sent his angel and rescued his servants that trusted in him...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by kbertsche, posted 03-30-2010 11:34 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by kbertsche, posted 03-31-2010 10:36 AM Peg has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 242 of 492 (552779)
03-31-2010 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Peg
03-30-2010 3:14 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
unfortunately none of those scriptures tell us that God took on human form... im pretty sure you wont find a scripture that does.
How can you be taken serious as a person and a bible student if you will not be serious Peg. Do you really think you have to find the words "he took on a human form for that premise to be valid
No thinking person could ever come away from Genesis 18, not understanding that God appeared to Abraham in the form of a man.
Genesis 18
1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
9And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
15Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.
16And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:
28Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
Think of the vilest, loathsome, repugnant atheist on this website, as in the form of Cavediver or Oni and even they would not miss that point in Genesis
Who was the Judge of all the earth that Abraham was talking to?
Yes God spoke to people thru his angels, yes he gave visions of himself but nowhere is he ever physically seen except for Moses was saw the glory of his back after Moses was shielded from seeing God in his fullness.
i cant actually believe I am having this discussion. Not to be silly but doesnt the back have a front, doesnt the back have a top and a bottom. Even if it was a manifestation, it was a manifestation in human form, somethin Moses could understand
of course he had all the attributes of God, he imitated God perfectly as he said he did
Even mankind has been created in the 'image' of God with that attributes of God...Adam was a perfect man with those attributes, we are imperfect people and we still display Gods attributes.
And Jesus was said to be a 'corresponding' ransom for the 'first man Adam'
well this will be the third or fourth time now I have pressed you to please find an angel or man that corresponds to the nature of God in all his attributes, like one can find with Christ in the NT. I can reproduce those attributes and passages if you wish
Where is it said of any man or angel, "I AM the first and the last, the beginning and the end, the alpha and the Omega, the resurrection and the life. This is clearly a discription of God, and it is said by and about Christ
pointing out some similarites between God and man wont work
So if Jesus corresponds to the life that Adam lost, then Adam was a perfect man who had the same attributes of God like Jesus....and like chrisitans can also have. It doesnt make all of us God becuase we can have the attributes of God.
verbage and SOME corresponding attributes wont remove the difficulty of your task to show what Christ has to God. every discription of God can be duplicated in Christ by using the NT.
One doesnt need a brick to fall on them to determine why this is the case. there is no need for me to demonstrate this point again, as your task is nothing short of impossible and you are demonstrating it with a continued predilection of irrelevancy
Adam did not have the same attributes of God, he was created by an eternal God
lets be clear that he most certainly not advocating that trinity...he is not saying that God and Christ and Holy spirit are all one being which is what the trinity claims.
The trinity does not advocate that the trinity is one being, it advocates that it is one God, with three personalities. God, YAWH and Jehovah are its title and name, as far as we know
He is saying they are all one with respect to 'substance' which does not mean what you think it means. It means their purpose, goals, desires are one and the same. this is in harmony with Jesus words
perhaps there are commentaries on his statement to determine what he meant by substance and I would like to see them. but a simple reading of his statement would make it clear that substance also includes essence, purpose, goals and whatever else.
Your wave of the hand exclamation that it doesnt mean what I think it means is your theology shinning through
Jesus showed that his desires are the same as his Fathers, his will is the same as his Fathers, his goals are the same as his Fathers. In this way the substance of everything Jesus is, was the same as the Fathers.
you know that I do not disagree with your above estimation at all, but the scriptures make it clear that Christs attributes and Gods are identical, theygo far beyond any man or angel
This gives me an idea for another thread and I will need the coroperation of all the Christians here to provide insight and scriptural understanding
You dont believe Jesus is God eternal, does and should this constitue a matter of fellowship with yourself from our perspective.
i dont believe you consider us Christians in the first place, because we need to be a part of and in your group to be saved in the first place.
my proposition here is, what is the dividing line from a doctrinal standpoint to not allow fellowship with say such a person as yourself, that does not believe Christ is God. Or is this enough of a reason to break fellowship
For example John admonishes us to not eat with one who denies jesus came inthe flesh. Would the belief that Christ is not God also fall into that category
Where is the linein th sand and scriptues
maye this will fly with the Admin as an acceptable thread
its 2:00 AM here I am going to bed
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Peg, posted 03-30-2010 3:14 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Peg, posted 03-31-2010 3:22 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 243 of 492 (552784)
03-31-2010 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Dawn Bertot
03-31-2010 2:29 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes:
Who was the Judge of all the earth that Abraham was talking to?
i've stated this previously, I've given an example of how Moses was said to 'speak to pharoah, or isreal' yet it was actually Aaron doing the talking.
this is because the hebrew language is dynamic and flexible... Yes God spoke to Abraham, but it was thru one of his angels just as Moses spoke to Isreal thru Aaron.
Just remember that other scriptures tell us that No one has seen God at ANYTIME, and even God has said 'you cannot see me and live'
EMA writes:
Adam did not have the same attributes of God, he was created by an eternal God
adam would have lived eternally if he had of obeyed God and did not sin...death was a consequence of sin and he was specifically told that he would die if he ate from the tree. If he had not of eaten, then there would not have been death for him and he would have lived eternally.
EMA writes:
The trinity does not advocate that the trinity is one being, it advocates that it is one God, with three personalities. God, YAWH and Jehovah are its title and name, as far as we know
and Jesus???
EMA writes:
you know that I do not disagree with your above estimation at all, but the scriptures make it clear that Christs attributes and Gods are identical, theygo far beyond any man or angel
but they are not identical in the fact that Jesus is a created being unlike God who is not.
Remember Proverbs 8:22Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth..."
EMA writes:
You dont believe Jesus is God eternal, does and should this constitue a matter of fellowship with yourself from our perspective.
Not in the context of our discussion on EVC, no.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-31-2010 2:29 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-31-2010 9:03 AM Peg has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 244 of 492 (552812)
03-31-2010 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Peg
03-31-2010 3:22 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
i've stated this previously, I've given an example of how Moses was said to 'speak to pharoah, or isreal' yet it was actually Aaron doing the talking.
Some would not, but I will follow you down your bunny trail, to expose your error . Yes the scriptures are very clear that Moses spoke to Pharoah by Aaron, but it makes that very clear and states specifically that that was the case
Now there is no indication or hint that in Gen 18, there is no dynamic or fleibility, that allows this to be anybody but God himself
Notice that the Lord does not indicate, hint or suggest that he has been sent in any fashion, by anyone elses authority, he speaks directly as God would and does in everyother passage concerning God in the scriptures.
No peg, no amount of twisting of scripture will allow your conclusions in Gen 18. So your theory that God never manifested himself in human form falls to the ground
I challenge you to find the slightest hint in this passage that makes this an angel, the verbage and context will not allow it
Just remember that other scriptures tell us that No one has seen God at ANYTIME, and even God has said 'you cannot see me and live'
I know that it is nessecary for you to maintain this doctrine to maintainyour other belief that jesus is not God. But this is also an indication that most if not all objectivity is being set aside where rational discussion is not possible concerning the subject
It seems that even the simplest passages are being manipulated and set aside in favor of a belief or doctrine.
Here is an interesting point. You seem to have no reason for believing that God could not manifest himself in some form or fashion, that does not allow us to see his fulll glory, but allows him to converse with humans in person, oher than the fact that you personally dont like the idea. there needs to be more, because without exception, Gen 18, is directly stating that this is what happened without question
Since there is absolutley no indication that this so-called angel gave any indication that he was sent or there by any others authority and since he speaks as only God would speak, since the passage is clear he was there in the form of a man, it seems you cannot offer one argument to make it anything less than God himself.
Again, even if it was a manifestation, does not Gods back have a front, does not the back have a top and bottom? Was there height and length to the back?
but they are not identical in the fact that Jesus is a created being unlike God who is not.
Remember Proverbs 8:22 Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth..."
Your theological ship is hitting a sand barge Peg and that is assuming that Proverbs 8n is speaking about Christ and not wisdom in a metephrical sense.
Since both God and Christ are described as the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last from everlasting to everlasting, this would make them one and the same.
Now watch this. If Christ was created and he is described in the exact same fashion as God, then it would follow that God was created as well, because there is no other language that applies to God that does not apply to Christ.
The passage in Revelations closes the door on any speculation as to who and what Christ was and whether he had a beginning pre incarnation
EMA writes:
The trinity does not advocate that the trinity is one being, it advocates that it is one God, with three personalities. God, YAWH and Jehovah are its title and name, as far as we know
Peg writes:
and Jesus???
Is God, having set aside his glory, his title and primary name, for allitle while to to live as a man and die for man. The Alpha and the Omega (Christ) cannot literally have a beginning,only a beginning inthe simce that he took on the form of a servant
EMA writes:
You dont believe Jesus is God eternal, does and should this constitue a matter of fellowship with yourself from our perspective.
Peg writes:
Not in the context of our discussion on EVC, no.
Thats kind of vauge Peg could you clarify or just answer the question directly
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Peg, posted 03-31-2010 3:22 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Peg, posted 03-31-2010 7:41 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 245 of 492 (552829)
03-31-2010 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Peg
03-31-2010 1:06 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
quote:
the translators will capitalize GOD or LORD if the original passages have the tetragrammaton (YHWY)
so the fact that it is not capitalized signifies that the tetragramaton was not in the original text and therefore not a reference to God Almighty.
I didn't claim that Dan 3:24-25 DID include YHWH. But the OT often refers to God without using YHWH. Elohim, Adonai, compounds of El (e.g. El-Shaddai) often refer to the one true God even though they don't use YHWH.
quote:
2ndly, the account goes on to say that it was an angel who was with them
Yes, but this doesn't prove that it was not God. The phrase "The angel of the Lord" sometimes suggests an incarnation of God (or as a pre-incarnate form of Jesus), as EMA has been discussing in Genesis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Peg, posted 03-31-2010 1:06 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Peg, posted 03-31-2010 7:45 PM kbertsche has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 246 of 492 (552932)
03-31-2010 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Dawn Bertot
03-31-2010 9:03 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes:
Yes the scriptures are very clear that Moses spoke to Pharoah by Aaron, but it makes that very clear and states specifically that that was the case
Now there is no indication or hint that in Gen 18, there is no dynamic or fleibility, that allows this to be anybody but God himself
actually the verses do not state clearly that Aaron spoke to pharoh. They state that Moses spoke to Pharaoh:
Exodus 8:1 Then Jehovah said to Moses: Go in to Phar′aoh, and you must say to him, ‘This is what Jehovah has said...
8:20 "Then Jehovah said to Moses: Get up early in the morning and take a position in front of Phar′aoh. Look! He is coming out to the water! And you must say to him,..."
9:1 "Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: Go in to Phar′aoh and you must state to him..."
9:13 "Then Jehovah said to Moses: Get up early in the morning and take a position in front of Phar′aoh, and you must say to him..."
10:1 "Then Jehovah said to Moses: Go in to Phar′aoh, ...and in order that you may declare in the ears of your son and your son’s son
10:8-9 "So Moses and Aaron were brought back to Phar′aoh, and he said to them: Go, serve Jehovah YOUR God. Who in particular are the ones going? 9Then Moses said: With our young people and our old people we shall go..."
If its only becuase of the few verses which tell us that Aaron was a mouth to moses that you accept that idea, so now you should try to apply that reasoning to the following scriptures which show that God used angels to speak to people.
Exodus 3:2-4 "Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. ...4When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said"
Judges 2:1 "Then Jehovahs angel went up from Gilgal to Bochim and said "I proceeded to bring you up out of Egypt and to bring you into the land which I swore to your forefathers...4 And it came about taht as soon as Jehovahs angel had spoken these words to all the sons of Isreal..."
Acts 7:37-38 This is the Moses that ... came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give you.
Acts 7:53 "YOU who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.
Hebrews 2:2 "For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm..."
Galatians 3:19 "Why, then, the Law? ... and it was transmitted through angels..."
Acts 7:30 And when forty years were fulfilled, there appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Si′nai an angel in the fiery flame of a thornbush..."
And remember when Moses asked God to let him see him the reply from God was at Ex 33:18-20: I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Jehovah before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy but you are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.
So in light of all these verses from different writers that angels were the ones who transmitted the law and the visions seen of God were really of Angels, how can you deny them and continue to say that God actually did these things himself? Or perhaps you'll view these verses with an open mind and see that it is highly likely that God used these angels as his representatives just as the scriptures show. i'll leave that for you to decide.
EMA writes:
Here is an interesting point. You seem to have no reason for believing that God could not manifest himself in some form or fashion, that does not allow us to see his fulll glory, but allows him to converse with humans in person, oher than the fact that you personally dont like the idea
No that is simply not the case. ITs the scritpures that tell us that God did not show himself physically to anyone and the scriptures that tell us that he used Angels to speak to people....just as Moses used Aaron to speak for him.
The chrisitans beleived this as the above scriptures show. John, Paul and Stephen all say the same thing. Its not just because i dont want to believe that God spoke to men...its because the christians didnt beleive it for the reason that they believed and understood what the hebrew scriptures said on the matter.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-31-2010 9:03 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-01-2010 9:02 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 247 of 492 (552934)
03-31-2010 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by kbertsche
03-31-2010 10:36 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
kbertsche writes:
Yes, but this doesn't prove that it was not God. The phrase "The angel of the Lord" sometimes suggests an incarnation of God (or as a pre-incarnate form of Jesus), as EMA has been discussing in Genesis.
can you provide some scriptures showing this to be the case?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by kbertsche, posted 03-31-2010 10:36 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by kbertsche, posted 04-02-2010 2:55 PM Peg has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 248 of 492 (553028)
04-01-2010 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Peg
03-31-2010 7:41 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
So in light of all these verses from different writers that angels were the ones who transmitted the law and the visions seen of God were really of Angels, how can you deny them and continue to say that God actually did these things himself? Or perhaps you'll view these verses with an open mind and see that it is highly likely that God used these angels as his representatives just as the scriptures show. i'll leave that for you to decide.
So when the scriptures say that God created the first angels, we are to believe that God did this by and through angels? Hmmm?
When the scriptures say someone saw God SITTING on his throne are we to believe they SAW a Spirit sitting.
What exacally did they see when they saw him sitting on his throne?
Or perhaps you'll view these verses with an open mind and see that it is highly likely that God used these angels as his representatives just as the scriptures show.
Peg it is yourself that is not being openminded. Of course God did things through Angels and Men, but it is a close minded person that disallows a plain passage like Gen 18, to support a doctrine.
Watch this Peg. When the God Overshadowed Mary do you think this was an Angel. According to your conclusions we must assume it was actually an angel and not God himself, because it had to do with physical things, God forbid
there is no reason, as I stated before, to believe that simply because men and angels do things for God, we should assume God cannot do things directly on his own.
I have demonstrated your misguided view of Johns statment can have exceptions
If its only becuase of the few verses which tell us that Aaron was a mouth to moses that you accept that idea, so now you should try to apply that reasoning to the following scriptures which show that God used angels to speak to people.
Actually I am saying just the opposite. I dont believe Aaron spoke every SINGLE word, just as I am justified in believing because angels do things of r God that it must mean every single thing
No that is simply not the case. ITs the scritpures that tell us that God did not show himself physically to anyone and the scriptures that tell us that he used Angels to speak to people....just as Moses used Aaron to speak for him.
Is it possible for God to manifest himself in another fashion (say as a man), so as to conceal his glory, to protect man?
So when the scriptures state that someone saw God sitting on his throne we should believe they saw a Spirit and not someone sitting somewhere
GOD SITTING UPON HIS THRONE
I Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne , and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
II Chronicles 8:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne , and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
Psalms 47:8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.
Psalms 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne . (Notice the "I". This is God the Father and thus speaks of the deity of Jesus, who fulfilled this promise. See Acts 2:30 below.)
Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne , high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God , and by him that sitteth thereon.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (See Psalms 132:11 above)
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne .
Revelation 4:1-3 [4:1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. [4:2] And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne . [4:3] And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (God the Father)
Revelation 4:9-11 [4:9] And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne , who liveth for ever and ever, [4:10] The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne , and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, [4:11] Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (God the Father)
Revelation 5:1, 7 [5:1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. [5:7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne . (God the Father)
Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne , and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. ( God the Father)
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne , and from the wrath of the Lamb: (God the Father)
Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne , and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. (God the Father)
Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it , from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Jesus)
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Jesus)
There is no reason to believe they did not see a human figure sitting on a throne, correct
Peg writes concerning the scriptures he provided
The chrisitans beleived this as the above scriptures show. John, Paul and Stephen all say the same thing. Its not just because i dont want to believe that God spoke to men...its because the christians didnt beleive it for the reason that they believed and understood what the hebrew scriptures said on the matter.
No this is what you believe peg, there is no indication they believed what you say exclusively. there is every indication they believed excally what is stated in these verses.
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Peg, posted 03-31-2010 7:41 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Peg, posted 04-01-2010 9:18 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 249 of 492 (553040)
04-01-2010 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Dawn Bertot
04-01-2010 9:02 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes:
Is it possible for God to manifest himself in another fashion (say as a man), so as to conceal his glory, to protect man?
well if you think its possible that God with his inifite power and energy could be bundled up into a tiny fleck of human flesh, then thats up to you
I personally dont believe God could do that for the reason that his being is far too great for it.
If Moses had to be protected from viewing even the back of God, how on earth could God be ecapsulated into such a weak and vulnerable piece of flesh???
Anyway, i think we've done this point enough and we'll just have to agree to disagree. My view is as the scriptures show...God used angels to speak on his behalf.
EMA writes:
So when the scriptures state that someone saw God sitting on his throne we should believe they saw a Spirit and not someone sitting somewhere
Stephen saw that vision, and Ezekiel saw a similar vision... but a vision is not a phyical view of God. When Stephen said he saw God on his throne and Jesus standing beside him, no one else saw it....the jews around him thought he was blaspheming and proceeded to stone him. So it wasnt a physical view of God that Stephen saw.
EMA writes:
No this is what you believe peg, there is no indication they believed what you say exclusively
Ok well like i said, that is your perogative. We'll have to agree to disagree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-01-2010 9:02 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-01-2010 9:40 AM Peg has replied
 Message 251 by John 10:10, posted 04-01-2010 2:38 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 252 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-01-2010 2:56 PM Peg has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 250 of 492 (553048)
04-01-2010 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Peg
04-01-2010 9:18 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
well if you think its possible that God with his inifite power and energy could be bundled up into a tiny fleck of human flesh, then thats up to you
I personally dont believe God could do that for the reason that his being is far too great for it.
If Moses had to be protected from viewing even the back of God, how on earth could God be ecapsulated into such a weak and vulnerable piece of flesh???
You are an intelligent person Peg, use your head for a moment. everything is God material, God doesnt get wrapped up in anything, he is confined to nothing, because there is nothing besides him. he simply reorganizes material for his purposes.
The only thing that matters is thought and the thought process. Notice the distinction Christ made between the physical and the mental, the world and the soul. While the physical will cease (change its form again into something else), the soul which is God reoganized and created and God driven will continue forever.
God manifesting himself in human form, is no great feat for him, it is an act of love. if Gods creation is GOOD, then there is no disrespect to God, in manifesting himself inthat form , correct?
I personally dont believe God could do that for the reason that his being is far too great for it.
God is to great to manifest himself in SOMETHING HE CREATED AND CALLED GOOD? You make no sense here Peg.
If it is above him to manifest himself in it, then wouldnt it follow that he is to great to created yucky physical things in the first place.
God immediately starts communicating with these gross humans in the garden and then continues through there existence. Whats the point if he is to great.
"What is man that THOU ART MINFUL OF HIME, or the son of man that you visit him"
Your respect for God is admirable, but it seems to be misplaced
Stephen saw that vision, and Ezekiel saw a similar vision... but a vision is not a phyical view of God. When Stephen said he saw God on his throne and Jesus standing beside him, no one else saw it....the jews around him thought he was blaspheming and proceeded to stone him. So it wasnt a physical view of God that Stephen saw.
So God was just leading these people on. There is no reason for them to believe or have comfort in anything they saw correct, it was all just a trick.
besides this what did they see, was it God manifesting himself as human or not?
Ok well like i said, that is your perogative. We'll have to agree to disagree.
So on to the fellowship question or on to the question of original sin, or nothing at all, which do you suggest
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Peg, posted 04-01-2010 9:18 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Peg, posted 04-01-2010 7:38 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 251 of 492 (553112)
04-01-2010 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Peg
04-01-2010 9:18 AM


The Word of God was made flesh
PEG writes,
"well if you think its possible that God with his inifite power and energy could be bundled up into a tiny fleck of human flesh, then thats up to you"
The problem lies not with EMA nor with me. The problem lies with your rejection of the God of the Bible as revealed in John 1:14,
"And the Word became (not created) flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Those who receive this God of the Bible, He declares this to us,
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)
If you want to continue believing in your Jehovah Witness created Jesus, that is your choice. But you cannot tamper with the revealed God of the Bible as though He were put together and can be explained by the Russellites of this world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Peg, posted 04-01-2010 9:18 AM Peg has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 252 of 492 (553118)
04-01-2010 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Peg
04-01-2010 9:18 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
well if you think its possible that God with his inifite power and energy could be bundled up into a tiny fleck of human flesh, then thats up to you
I personally dont believe God could do that for the reason that his being is far too great for it.
Heh. Don't you see that you're saying that god is so powerful that he doesn't have a power? Your position is self-contradictory.
If god has infinite power then he most certainly would be able to bundle himself up into a tiny fleck, or anything else.
But anyways...
It seems that everytime someone shows Biblical references to Jesus' divinity, you claim that he, god the son, is not equivalent to god the father. And sure, there has to be some kind of difference in order for them to be different, but they're still part of the same thing.
Jesus is god incarnate:
wiki on incarnation
He is god and man. But yes, this is not exactly identical to God (the father).
But from what I've read in this thread, Jesus' divinity has been scriptually supported. You're left with the argument that they're not exactly identical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Peg, posted 04-01-2010 9:18 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Peg, posted 04-01-2010 7:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 255 by cavediver, posted 04-02-2010 8:51 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 253 of 492 (553186)
04-01-2010 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Dawn Bertot
04-01-2010 9:40 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes:
The only thing that matters is thought and the thought process. Notice the distinction Christ made between the physical and the mental, the world and the soul. While the physical will cease (change its form again into something else), the soul which is God reoganized and created and God driven will continue forever.
the meaning of 'soul' has changed since it was written in ancient times, I get the impression you are going with the current meaning of soul....as some life force that exists outside the physical body?
The original meaning of the word soul, as it is written in the scriptures, means 'the living body' but i wont take us off topic
EMA writes:
God manifesting himself in human form, is no great feat for him, it is an act of love. if Gods creation is GOOD, then there is no disrespect to God, in manifesting himself inthat form , correct?
unfortunately the scriptures dont give us this sort of information. They do not say if God did or did not do this, so its pure speculation to say he definiately did manifest himself in human form.
From the scriptures it seem very clear to me that, as John said "No man has seen God at anytime"
Now either I believe Johns words that God has not shown himself to humans at anytime, or I speculate that he may have done so. But if I do that, then i am disrepecting the words of the Apostle...one whom I'm sure you consider an inspired writer. The teaching you are proposing has come from non inpsired writers.
You tell me who Jesus entrusted with the truth? You tell me who he chose to impart such information? An you tell me why, if Johns words are not true, would Jesus allow such a statement to be made in the first place?
EMA writes:
So God was just leading these people on. There is no reason for them to believe or have comfort in anything they saw correct, it was all just a trick.
besides this what did they see, was it God manifesting himself as human or not?
Not at all. Visions were given to people so that they could be informed of what was to happen or what they were to do, or so that they could be assured that God was with them. God does not exist in any form,he is a spirit without a body, so he is invisble to human eyes. So obviously God gives us an image that we can understand...he gives us an image, but not of his true self.
EMA writes:
So on to the fellowship question or on to the question of original sin, or nothing at all, which do you suggest
i'll let you decide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-01-2010 9:40 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 254 of 492 (553189)
04-01-2010 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by New Cat's Eye
04-01-2010 2:56 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Catholic Scientist writes:
But from what I've read in this thread, Jesus' divinity has been scriptually supported. You're left with the argument that they're not exactly identical.
Unfortunately, the scriptures that have been used simply do not mesh with the many that I have posted which show the opposite.
Even Jesus own words about who he was do not fit with the idea that he is God. Tell me why Jesus did not announce that he was God in the flesh? Rather he said said: I am God’s Son. (John 10:36)
Tell me why, if he was God, he said I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me. (John 5:30)
Also, explain why when he was on the torture stake, he prayed to God when he cried out My God, my God why have you forsaken me. (Matthew 27:46)
And then after he had been resurrected he told Mary Magdalene I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God. (John 20:1,17)
And no one has even attempted to explain what John meant when he said under inspiration No man has seen God at any time.
The incarnation was not something the apostles or Jesus taught...it came much later by the very men who were killing their christian brothers for not believing the new teaching that they themselves introduced with the help of emperor constantine...a pagan worshiper.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-01-2010 2:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-02-2010 10:00 AM Peg has replied
 Message 258 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-02-2010 11:00 AM Peg has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 255 of 492 (553243)
04-02-2010 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by New Cat's Eye
04-01-2010 2:56 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
But from what I've read in this thread, Jesus' divinity has been scriptually supported.
I have to say that that is not my impression - for every passage that seems to (ambiguously) read in favour, there is another that reads (quite definitely) against. Yes, you can read between the lines and take away that Jesus is an aspect of God. You can just as (if not far more) easily take away that Jesus is most certainly not God. I would say that there is no way in hell that you can unabiguously take away that Jesus is God. Much like the trinity, for such supposedly important concepts, God is exceptionally (suspiciously) vague on these matters...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-01-2010 2:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-02-2010 10:02 AM cavediver has not replied
 Message 259 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-02-2010 11:17 AM cavediver has not replied
 Message 263 by Peg, posted 04-02-2010 9:12 PM cavediver has not replied

  
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