The Bible's Flat Earth

Isaiah referred to the earth as a 'circle' which is flat, like a dinner plate. If he thought it was round he should have said it was round, or a ball, or a sphere, or a pebble, or any of a million other things that would have described a 3-dimensional shape.Here is a list of some of the christian theologians who taught that the earth was flat, based on scripture: Lactantius, Cosmas Indicopleustes, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, Theodore of Mopsuestia, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Jerusalem, Ephraim Syrus, Athanasius of Alexandria, Diodorus of Tarsus, Epiphanius of Salamis, Hilary of Poitiers, and Severian of Gabala."The earth is flat and the sun does not pass under it in the night, but travels through the northern parts as if hidden by a wall" ~ Severian, Bishop of Gabala

Thanks! You're right. It wasn't Isaiah 40:12 btw, it was 40:22. I agree. But then, I consider the entire bible to be metaphorical. To me its a more a book of lessons than a science book, but I digress.
Lets accept that it is poetry and lets read it again:
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
As you can see, when Isaiah is not speaking literally he uses the word "like." When he refers to the circle of the earth, he appears to have been speaking literally. Guess what - Satan did something just like this with Matthew.
Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.
One would only be able to see all the kingdoms of the world from one vantage point if the earth was flat. Which the authors of the bible clearly believed it was. Plus there's a verse in Daniel that reads...
4:10 I saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.
The tree was in the center...how interesting...and visible from everywhere on the planet. Sounds like he thinks the earth is round....NOT. This looks like an opinion being presented as though it was fact. Do you have anything to back up this claim? Its called the bible, and it says "earth." Earth is a planet.

It sure did and I checked it out before I posted. After reading through paragraphs of speculation I gave up. I'd rather see the evidence, or at least some reasoning, than go on a wild goose chase. The Copernicus comment is a red herring.
And yes, the word "earth" can be used to refer to the ground we stand on. For example, as Granny Magda mentioned, I can use "earth" to pot a plant.
However, those arguments fail when you read the verse in context. Lets look at the verses before and after: Does this sound like he's refering to a scoop of dirt? When it says "the rulers of this world" do you think he's referring to enough dirt to pot a plant, a few square miles, or even a nation? Of course not. These verses are about God, sitting on His throne in heaven, looking down on the earth.And besides, if they believed the earth was round, why did so many Christian theologians teach that it was flat?"The earth is flat and the sun does not pass under it in the night, but travels through the northern parts as if hidden by a wall" ~ Severian, Bishop of Gabala

Hi Granny Magda, So do I. I think we're in agreement here. Essentially what I'm saying is that Isaiah thought the earth was a flat disc and he wrote those verses accordingly. I already provided a list on the last page but here it is again: Lactantius, Cosmas Indicopleustes, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, Theodore of Mopsuestia, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Jerusalem, Ephraim Syrus, Athanasius of Alexandria, Diodorus of Tarsus, Epiphanius of Salamis, Hilary of Poitiers, and Severian of Gabala. Of course its Dreyer's words - he's transliterating from Latin.To put it another way:
Person A writes "bonjour."
Person B translates that to mean "hello."
Then this poster comes along and says that the "hello" was person B's 'own words' and how amusing it is that the "hello" would be attributed to person A. If correcting my mistakes is a pain in the ass then please please please be a pain in the ass all you want. I prefer to learn, not stubbornly cling to error.

I got their names from here: CA662: Church teaching a flat earth
I don't see the fact that Christian theologians taught a flat earth is even questionable. Even Jonathan Wells mentions that Lactantius and Cosmas Indicopleustes teaching a flat earth. I agree with this. Looking at his the page in question here, it seems that the sections in quotes are direct translations and the sections outside of quotes are paraphrased.
Is this not fairly standard practice when transliterating from one language to another? Do you think its possible to do a direct translation of every word (many of which do not exist in both languages)? Do you think that english and latin have the same grammar and syntax? I believe a certain amount of paraphrasing is necessary to make the translation meaningful to your readers.

Even when I confine myself to Christian only sites (I presume you will argue the validity of secular ones), in about two minutes I found 5 examples of sources that feel that eretz can refer to the planet earth.Either Hebrew word "erets" or "adamah" can
refer to a country, land, or earth.
Why I think Noah's "erets" flood occurred around 9,600 BC and ended in Turkey. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you. In you will all of the families of the eretz [earth] be blessed.
http://familybible.org/israel/Index.htmHave you heard this song by Debbie Friedman: Hodo al Eretz (His Glory Is Upon the Earth)Here is the Hebrew Lexicon definition for erets. Its got numerous definitions but I will just show the first one: And check out this christian apologetics page designed solely to refute claims that Christians taught a flat earth: http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Isawa/flatearth.htm
Sounds to me like these Christian apologetics are saying that eretz usually means the earth as a globe, but not always. What does this even mean? Not only is this an absurd request, but virtually everyone knows they're on a planet. Children know they're on a planet. Most handicapped people I met know they're on a planet. And btw - even if he didn't know, isn't his work divinely inspired? Why would you ask how he knows he's on a planet but not ask how he knows that God is sitting on His throne?But anyway, now that we've established that eretz often refers to earth, lets look at that verse again. God is sitting on His throne up in the heavens and looking down on the circle of the eretz.
Gee...maybe it refers to a few acres or something...and if you actually believe that then there's really no point in attempting to have a reasoned discussion with you.

Purpledawn,Usually when someone makes a claim like... ...and they are shown something like.......they usually have the integrity to admit that they were wrong.
But not you.An honest person would admit that the word has multiple definitions, including the planet earth, and would consider those many definitions to reach their own interpretation of that verse.
But not you.You decided on a particular interpretation and are so steadfastly opposed to the idea that your interpretation could be wrong that you refuse to accept alternative definitions even when they are put right in front of you.Let me show you what disingenuous looks like...It seems that the word 'earth' always means ground, never a planet, according to you...so long as that arbitrarily chosen definition supports the interpretation that you cling to because its your interpretation and its impossible that you could be wrong. And don't get me wrong, I might not be right either, but I'm not going to lie to myself and others to support my position.And when Christian apologetics, whom are highly motivated to agree with your assertion, but have the integrity and honesty to admit the truth, how do you respond?...you respond by calling them INSANE!That's right purpledawn, its the world that is crazy, not you.(any by 'world' I mean the planet earth as a whole - just in case you thought it meant 'ground' or something)

Purpledawn, Sadly, this has nothing to do with our conversation. Everyone and their dog accept that those two words have different meanings, nobody cares.These are your words in msg 442: And I've clearly shown that one of the meanings of erets is the earth...the entire earth. Not just dirt, or ground, or land, but the entire planet.Instead of simply admitting the error and moving on, you go on this tedious path of rebuttals like that silly moving-the-goalposts-style equivocation about "eretz and earth have several meanings" - please tell me who on this forum was insisting that both 'earth' and 'eretz' have only one meaning so you and I can destroy their arguments together.You can respond to the erets/earth argument 100 more times if you like, but it really doesn't interest me anymore. As for the interpretation of the verse(s), I propose we simply agree to disagree.Incidentally, I apologize for being unduly harsh. I felt that as you scrutinized my arguments and encouraged me to support them to the highest standard (I felt like I was writing another essay or something, lol), I would return the favor and try to dissect your arguments as well.
I hope we meet again on the literary battlefield. Feel free to hate me if you like, but I respect you as a worthy opponent. Catholic Scientist, Yeah, probably. But wasn't it divinely inspired? Isn't the bible inerrant?My answer to both those questions is 'no.' My position is that Isaiah described the world as he thought it was, a flat disc. I've often heard that Isaiah said the earth was round before anyone else knew it was, so I'm pointing out that not only is that wrong, but that his claims are further proof that the bible is not inerrant.

Granny Magda, thanks for the update. I'd read about Severian's absurdly literal interpretation of the bible and its interesting to see it in more detail.Purpledawn, We're meaning the same thing - several different meanings. I agree that there is numerous better examples but the forum is biblical accuracy and inerrancy and the thread title is the bible's flat earth - so I went with the Isaiah example. Sure I have: Therefore, you were in error. The word 'erets' has several different meanings, one of which is the earth.On topic, it appears that most or all of us agree that the bible is not inerrant. In which case, I'm off in search of more interesting debate.

I agree that the verse is NOT saying that its a round/globe/planet/sphere hurtling through space.
I hope that now we can move on with our lives and find people who disagree with our position to argue with - OKAY?!

Purpledawn, Wow, its not just a river in Egypt anymore.I no longer believe a reasoned argument will penetrate this impenetrable wall of denial you've erected, but I'll provide some more sources that agree that 'erets' does indeed include the planet Earth as one of its meanings for EVC's more objective members to read.If you were right about erets, Genesis 1:1 would read that "God made the heavens and some ground." Doesn't quite have that same ring to it hey?I've already shown the Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon......which I think would have laid the issue to rest for pretty much any rational person. I think its absurd to think that the "whole earth" and "earth as opposed to heaven" is merely refering to the ground and not the planet. But maybe that's just me.
Here are some other equally 'ambiguous' definitions Maybe I'm going out on a limb here but "the name of the planet on which man dwells" kinda sounds like a reference to the planet Earth to me. Do you still want to pretend erets never refers to the planet earth? Doesn't matter to me either way since the truth of the matter is pretty obvious.