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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Biblical Record
Peg
Member (Idle past 4950 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 233 of 348 (551880)
03-24-2010 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Dr Adequate
03-24-2010 7:39 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
DrAdequate writes:
I've just been looking at a list of Chinese radicals. The element of the character that you say means "mouth" actually means "erect, proud, upright", and the element that you say means "eight" actually means "small table".
No webpage found at provided URL: http://chineseculture.about.com/library/extra/character/bls_numbers.htm
8 on this list looks pretty much the same as the 8 i posted earlier.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2010 7:39 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4950 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 239 of 348 (551912)
03-25-2010 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Dr Adequate
03-24-2010 8:52 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
i have been trying to find more chinese characters but i dont have the right software to download them
from your link i found another 'mouth'
Creation is comprised of the following components
dust + (breath of) life + (from God's) mouth + motion = Creation
Interestingly, this is the character for 'creation'. Its a very similar to the genesis account of Adams creation where he was made of dust and God blew into him the breath of life
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2010 8:52 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by JonF, posted 03-25-2010 7:45 AM Peg has replied
 Message 241 by Huntard, posted 03-25-2010 8:08 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4950 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 242 of 348 (551918)
03-25-2010 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by JonF
03-25-2010 7:45 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
what was your point back then?
JonF Msg 214 writes:
ABE: I've done a lot of reading on both sides of the issue on Noah's Fludde. It didn't happen. Therefore, any claim that rests on the assumption that there was a fludde is prima facie wrong.
This wasnt about Noahs flood. Let me remind you that it is about the similarities in languages which show a linkage of the chinese to mesopotamia... a linkage that ZenMonkey denies.
its got nothing to do with the flood account ok.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by JonF, posted 03-25-2010 7:45 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by nwr, posted 03-25-2010 9:34 AM Peg has replied
 Message 255 by JonF, posted 03-25-2010 7:21 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4950 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 263 of 348 (552134)
03-26-2010 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by nwr
03-25-2010 9:34 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
nwr writes:
If there is a linkage from Chinese to Mesopotamian languages, as you seem to believe, that would clearly demonstrate that languages can evolve more than enough to explain the multiplicity of languages around. So the "Tower of Babel" story would still look like a fable (which, of course, is exactly what it is).
you can put it down to evolution if you want
But you do realise that linguists look for such similarities to determine if a language is related to another?
In this case its was said that the chinese were already an established nation far away from the mesopotamians and therefore their language was completely independent and not related....IOW it was established before the 'so called' confusion of languages incident.
So this similarity is either just a coincidence, or the chinese were not an established nation at the time and were a part of the people of mesopotamia who were dispersed after the tower of babel incident.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by nwr, posted 03-25-2010 9:34 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by nwr, posted 03-26-2010 7:35 PM Peg has replied
 Message 265 by bluescat48, posted 03-27-2010 11:13 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 267 by Otto Tellick, posted 03-27-2010 11:12 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4950 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 266 of 348 (552263)
03-27-2010 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by nwr
03-26-2010 7:35 PM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
nwr writes:
I was just pointing out that it does not help your claim that the Tower of Babel describes an actual event and is not merely an ancient fable.
and that wasnt the point of my bringing it up
Zen Monkey claimed that the chinese had no influence from the mesopotamians because the chinese were far far away and already had an established language of their own around the time of the socalled 'babel' account.
So, if you agree that linguists use similarities in words to establish a link, why should the similarity between the chinese words and mesopotamian ideas not prove such a link?
Do they only identify and establish links under some circumstances but not others...can they pick and choose which links they accept and which links they reject? And what would they base such rejection or acceptance upon?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by nwr, posted 03-26-2010 7:35 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by nwr, posted 03-27-2010 11:38 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 269 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-28-2010 3:21 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 272 by Otto Tellick, posted 03-28-2010 3:17 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4950 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 280 of 348 (552940)
03-31-2010 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Hyroglyphx
03-29-2010 1:45 PM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
Hyroglyphx writes:
But if you think so, then what was the original Adamic language that everyone spoke before the confusion? Is it still in existence?
it was hebrew and the reasoning behind this is that hebrew was the language of Noah and his 3 sons. Shem and his family did not get involved in the building of the tower, so he was not one of the people to have his language changed and his decendents are the isrealites who continued to speak the original language.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2010 1:45 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Otto Tellick, posted 04-01-2010 12:15 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4950 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 282 of 348 (552982)
04-01-2010 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Otto Tellick
04-01-2010 12:15 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
OttoTellick writes:
Well, assuming that God really wanted to mess things up that way with the Babel trick (which was actually a pretty stupid idea, if you think about it), I really don't see any grounds for preserving any trace of the original "Adamic" language in any human mind. Might as well treat everyone the same way, and lose the original language completely.
Perhaps if everyone at the time was involved the rebellion...but not everyone was so why would God need to remove the original language?
Otto Tellick writes:
I think you'll also want to change your chronology, to make sure that every form of writing arises at some point after the tower, and none before. You haven't even tried to assert this, but it ends up being a necessary entailment.
The genesis account shows that people were writing well before the tower incident...they were writing in their original language, hebrew, so why should this be necessary? Moses got his information from either oral tradition or from existing writings. In genesis the expression this is the book of the generations of is seen, so he likely got the early geneology from existing writings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Otto Tellick, posted 04-01-2010 12:15 AM Otto Tellick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Huntard, posted 04-01-2010 3:10 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 286 by Otto Tellick, posted 04-01-2010 7:01 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4950 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 288 of 348 (553569)
04-03-2010 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Otto Tellick
04-01-2010 7:01 PM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
OttoTellick writes:
Do you have any citations for that? And independent evidence as well? I think you may not have understood my point: the oldest written Hebrew that we know of is not as old as the oldest written Phoenician (whose writing system was adapted for use by the Hebrews); likewise, the oldest known Sumerian cuneiform and the oldest known Egyption hieroglyphs are older than the oldest known Hebrew.
"That we know of"....yes, that may be the case, however it could also be circumstantial. If Hebrew really is the oldest, then its possible that the very oldest writings simply are too old to exist...or havent been found yet. Moses got information about Adam from, what he called, 'The book of Adams history'
OttoTellick writes:
Archaeological and historical linguistic research has established that Hebrew derives from the same source as (but is slightly more recent than) Phoenician, and there are clearly differences between Phoenician and Hebrew.
Pheneocian is a subgroup of the canaanite language. Canaan was Noahs grandson from Ham. This makes both pheneocian and canaanite younger then hebrew.
I know you dont want biblical evidence, however Moses was able to get the names of the generations of mankind after Adam from somewhere. He called his reference 'the book of Adams history' This is not available anymore but it was obviously still around 4,000 years ago.
OttoTellick writes:
The research also shows that the Egyptian of the oldest hieroglyphs, and the Sumerian of the oldest cuneiform, were each distinct languages, quite different from one another (and from Phoenician and Hebrew), with different sound systems, different lexicons, different inflectional patterns on words, and different sentence structure.
dating methods can be flawed and not give accurate dates. Who's to say their dating of these languages is accurate? Can they prove accuracy? I dont think so.
otto Tellick writes:
But it really makes no sense under any interpretation -- until you decide to interpret it as a parable or fable or myth or allegory or... anything but history.
That is not my opinion. The bible is a record of human history not found anywhere else, it provides answers to questions not found anywhere else. It is in harmony with historical facts and time and again archeology digs up places and people whom critics have denied existed. This is why many people do accept the bibles history as fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Otto Tellick, posted 04-01-2010 7:01 PM Otto Tellick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by bluescat48, posted 04-04-2010 1:59 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 291 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-04-2010 3:42 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 293 by ZenMonkey, posted 04-05-2010 1:04 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 294 by anglagard, posted 04-05-2010 2:41 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 296 by Otto Tellick, posted 04-05-2010 11:32 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 298 by rockondon, posted 04-06-2010 12:34 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 304 by greyseal, posted 09-04-2010 4:42 PM Peg has not replied

  
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