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Author Topic:   Safety and Effectiveness of Herbs and Pharmaceuticals
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 209 (554634)
04-09-2010 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Hyroglyphx
04-09-2010 11:23 AM


I'm not saying they don't serve a purpose.
Oh, I know. I gotcha. I was just pointing out somes exceptions to the "treating the symptom not the cause" mantra.
Acetominephine is one of the more tried and true drugs out there, I am just giving you an alternative.
I like Ibuprofen. If I've done a lot of hard work and have some sore muscles, it works great at getting rid of the pain. What's the alternative there? Although you do have to be careful sometimes, especially for sprains n'things, cause without the pain you don't know if you're damaging it further by walking on it, or whatever.
Some people are reliant on drugs when they don't have to be. I know people addicted to meds and what is supposed to be treating them is actually the cause of their problems.
I dated a girl in high school who was addicted to Afrin (a nasal decongestant). If you take the product more than 3 days, it actually causes your nasal cavities to clog up because it stops the bodies natural mucous system.
I used to be addicted to Carmex. Not like I was jonesing for it, but if I didn't use it before bed, then my lips would dry out and crack to the point of bleeding. I got sick of having to use it, so I just put up with the bleeding lips in the morning for about a week or so and it gradually stopped happening and now I'm fine.
There is also some concern that things like autism (which is dramatically increasing) is due to government mandated vaccinations. The claim is that "thimerosal," an additive in vaccines made from the compound, mercury, is the main cause. A court ruling recently determined that no significant link can be made. The debate is back and forth, I honestly can't say whether there is a link or not. One thing is for certain, it seems to me. Something in the environment or something we are ingesting is the cause, because there is no reason why there should be an increase as dramatic as it is unless it is something we are regularly in contact with.
I don't know anything about that. There's a higher percentage of autism? By how much and how fast?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 92 of 209 (554637)
04-09-2010 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Hyroglyphx
04-09-2010 11:23 AM


[mbrid=8332] writes:
There is also some concern that things like autism (which is dramatically increasing) is due to government mandated vaccinations. The claim is that "thimerosal," an additive in vaccines made from the compound, mercury, is the main cause. A court ruling recently determined that no significant link can be made. The debate is back and forth, I honestly can't say whether there is a link or not. One thing is for certain, it seems to me. Something in the environment or something we are ingesting is the cause, because there is no reason why there should be an increase as dramatic as it is unless it is something we are regularly in contact with.
I suspect that your analysis might be wrong.
My grandson was diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder. After a more recent re-examination, it was concluded that he is actually normal, and that the diagnosis was mistaken.
I suspect that the reason autism is increasing, is because people are looking harder. I am not saying that they are all being misdiagnosed. Indeed, the diagnoses might be correct. But we are often diagnosing a child as autistic, when 20 years ago that child would have been treated as a bit odd, perhaps socially awkward - but nobody would have applied an "autism" label. That is to say, we are finding cases of autism because we are looking harder.
Perhaps there is an actual increase in the rate of autism, but because so much of what is seen can be explained as "we are looking harder," we need to be cautious in how we assess the evidence.
[mbrid=8332] writes in Message 87:
I refuse to take drugs in most instances, unless I am very sick (which is very rare).
Yes, I'm like that, too. I tend to think that nature's way is often the best. However, taking herbal remedies that are not part of our natural diet does strike me as unnatural, and just as unnatural as taking something made in a laboratory.
Full disclosure requires that I acknowledge that I am taking medication for hypertension. Nature does have its way of taking care of that - it is called death.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 93 of 209 (554639)
04-09-2010 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by New Cat's Eye
04-09-2010 11:33 AM


quote:
I like Ibuprofen. If I've done a lot of hard work and have some sore muscles, it works great at getting rid of the pain. What's the alternative there?
I use ginger root. It's an anti-inflammatory. When I injured my knee, it worked great to bring down the swelling. That was the first time I used it. It's my standby for inflammation now.

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 94 of 209 (554642)
04-09-2010 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Hyroglyphx
04-09-2010 11:23 AM


There is also some concern that things like autism (which is dramatically increasing) is due to government mandated vaccinations. The claim is that "thimerosal," an additive in vaccines made from the compound, mercury, is the main cause. A court ruling recently determined that no significant link can be made. The debate is back and forth, I honestly can't say whether there is a link or not. One thing is for certain, it seems to me. Something in the environment or something we are ingesting is the cause, because there is no reason why there should be an increase as dramatic as it is unless it is something we are regularly in contact with.
Scientific research has totally discredited this idea.
quote:
Thimerosal as a preservative was removed from most childhood vaccines by 2001 and the last lots of thimerosal preservative-containing vaccines expired in January 2003. It is still being discussed only because of ongoing litigation in both state courts and the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Thimerosal is still contained in some of the flu vaccines routinely given to children since 2004. There are also vaccines that contain trace, often unmeasurable, levels of thimerosal.
During the nineties, the number of persons reported to be receiving services for autistic spectrum disorders increased substantially. Rates are tenfold higher than in the 1970s; in the MMWR, rates ranged from 4.5 to almost 10 per thousand eight-year-olds. Newspapers have reported that one in 150 children has autism. A study published in Nature Genetics from the Autism Genome Project analyzed genes from more than 1100 families with at least two children with autism. There is some very promising research identifying some loci of genes on chromosomes, particularly Chromosome 11...
An ecological study in Denmark analyzed data from almost 1,000 children diagnosed with autism over 30 years. Thimerosal was used in childhood vaccines from the early fifties until 1992, and there was no trend for an increase in autism up through 1990. From 1991 to 2000, the incidence of autism increased, after thimerosal was discontinued from vaccines, suggesting no relationship between thimerosal and autism in Denmark.
quote:
Indeed, there is considerable uncertainty in the scientific and public-health communities about the meaning of the dramatic rise in autism numbers. Several factors other than a true increase in autism incidence have contributed to the ballooning numbers. These include greater awareness on the part of parents, pediatricians and educators; much broader definitions of autism than in decades past, when only the most severe form of the disorder was recognized (today, ASD includes the milder forms known as Asperger's syndrome and pervasive developmental disorder, not otherwise specified); earlier diagnosis of ASD, which can now be recognized by age 2 in many cases; and the growing availability of special services and interventions for children identified with ASD...
HRSA researcher Michael Kogan, the lead author of the study, admitted that it was hard to explain these vanishing cases of autism which is by definition a lifelong condition. Yet nearly 40% of children who were diagnosed with autism, according to parents, no longer had the condition. It may be that such children received the autism label "to facilitate services for other conditions such as developmental delays," Kogan said. Or it could be that children were only tentatively classified as having ASD when they were very young and then the disorder was ruled out.
Source
I am not saying there is not an increase in autism. But i do think the evidence needs further evaluation.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 95 of 209 (554643)
04-09-2010 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Hyroglyphx
04-09-2010 11:23 AM


Vaccine-Denialism Not the Issue
Hi Hyro,
Some people are reliant on drugs when they don't have to be. I know people addicted to meds and what is supposed to be treating them is actually the cause of their problems.
And some people are dependant on herbs. Over-medicalisation is a genuine concern, but it isn't really the focus of this thread. Nor are vaccines, but I feel that I must address this.
There is also some concern that things like autism (which is dramatically increasing) is due to government mandated vaccinations.
Yes, from wingnuts. There is no proven link.
The claim is that "thimerosal," an additive in vaccines made from the compound, mercury, is the main cause.
And in the UK, the claim was that the MMR vaccine was causing autism, yet there has been no dramatic rise in autism to coincide with the release of the MMR. There has however, been an increase in measles, one of the illnesses the vaccine is intended to fight. That's because parents, worried by scare stories and dishonest journalism, were scared into leaving their children un-vaccinated. This has actually cost lives.
In the US and elsewhere, the concerns about vaccines have targeted other drugs. It's a fashion thing.
A court ruling recently determined that no significant link can be made.
More than one court. This is because no significant link can be made. Of course that doesn't stop the kooks.
The debate is back and forth,
Yes it is, between doctors and scientists on the one hand and wingnuts and kooks on the other. Honestly, the "debate" is about as valid as that between science and creationism.
I honestly can't say whether there is a link or not.
Then why comment at all? If you're going to start spreading scare stories about vaccines for children, vaccines that undoubtedly save lives, you really ought to have something to back it up. If you don't, then in my opinion, you should refrain from comment.
One thing is for certain, it seems to me. Something in the environment or something we are ingesting is the cause, because there is no reason why there should be an increase as dramatic as it is unless it is something we are regularly in contact with.
Or the rise could be simply due to improved diagnosis.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-09-2010 12:52 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 96 of 209 (554647)
04-09-2010 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Hyroglyphx
04-09-2010 11:23 AM


Thimerosal does not cause autism
Besides that scientific studies have found no link, thimerosal was removed from vaccines in the US beginning around 2000 and autism rates have continued to climb. The increasing incidence rate might be real or it might be due to increased diagnosis, but it is definitely not due to thimerosal.
--Percy

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 209 (554651)
04-09-2010 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by nwr
04-09-2010 11:55 AM


Perhaps there is an actual increase in the rate of autism, but because so much of what is seen can be explained as "we are looking harder," we need to be cautious in how we assess the evidence.
Hmmm, I suppose that is very possible. People with Asberger's and autism are like high-functioning individuals with a mild case of mental retardation. I used to work with a man (this is the military, mind you) who clearly had Asberger's. Somehow he made it in and stayed in for 10 years until they found a way to kick him out. My point is, I suppose it was easy to overlook the diagnosis in the past, lending credence to perhaps we're just looking for it more now.
herbal remedies that are not part of our natural diet does strike me as unnatural, and just as unnatural as taking something made in a laboratory.
I'm not advocating holistic medicine's for the same reasons you listed. Every year there is some new gimmick that is pure horseshit. The lastest craze is the acclaimed acai berry from South America is the latest scam. I just meant if you have a headache it may be your body telling you to drink some damn water. That's what I tell my son or daughter to do when they have a headache before I administer any kind of drugs. They don't get enough water in their diet because their urine is friggin' orange!

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 209 (554653)
04-09-2010 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Granny Magda
04-09-2010 12:08 PM


Re: Vaccine-Denialism Not the Issue
quote:
I honestly can't say whether there is a link or not.
Then why comment at all? If you're going to start spreading scare stories about vaccines for children, vaccines that undoubtedly save lives, you really ought to have something to back it up. If you don't, then in my opinion, you should refrain from comment.
I brought it up in hopes that I could gain some more insight on the subject. I wasn't endorsing the theory or rejecting the theory. I was being inquisitive because I would like to know more. Although it was barbed, thanks for your input nonetheless.

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 99 of 209 (554655)
04-09-2010 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Granny Magda
04-09-2010 9:12 AM


Hey Granny.
If people are going to use herbal medicines, they need to be aware of the risks. Experience tells us that most will not make themselves aware of the risk, nor will the snake oil salesmen of the alt-med industry tell them of the risks. That is why I support legal controls on herbal medicine.
Good points, all. It seems as if, every once in a while, we'll get a whiff of the FDA possibly regulating an herbal which has shown to have this-or-that active metabolite of a legitimate prescription med (making the herb a de facto version of the original, albeit most of the time, a weaker version). But then of course the activists and industry lobbyists (yes, they exist) get their backs all up about it, and the interest seems to magically fade away. There have been some legitimate efforts to regulate supplements, however. Pseudoephedrine can only be bought behind the pharmacy counter, although this was for reasons associated with meth-manufacture vs. actual run of the mill patient safety. Ephedrine has been "banned", but can be obtained as Ma Huang; yohimbine isn't too far removed from either of these, and is easily available as well.
Unfortunately, the only types of situations which will result in more regulation of OTCs include the above type of abuses or multiple high profile deaths following legitimate usage. Like so many other things, hindsight rules. But I agree -- supplements should be regulated.
Have a good one.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
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Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 100 of 209 (554657)
04-09-2010 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Percy
04-09-2010 12:17 PM


Re: Thimerosal does not cause autism
Hey Percy.
... thimerosal was removed from vaccines in the US beginning around 2000 and autism rates have continued to climb.
Just thought I'd comment that thimerosal was removed from vaccines routinely given to children under age 6. It is still commonly found in vaccines for older kids and adults, but I fully agree that the hysteria surrounding thimerosal and autism was and always has been unjustified. Once again, the FDA has kowtowed to the anti-science fervor of the wing-nut crowd ...

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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 101 of 209 (554658)
04-09-2010 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Hyroglyphx
04-09-2010 12:52 PM


Re: Vaccine-Denialism Not the Issue
Hyro,
I brought it up in hopes that I could gain some more insight on the subject.
Cool. If you're interested, these sites provide good information about vaccine controversies;
Respectful Insolence by Orac; insolence | ScienceBlogs
Bad Science by Ben Goldacre; Bad Science
This page on the MMR vaccine panic is particularly interesting; The media’s MMR hoax – Bad Science
Or you can sample the other side of the "debate" here; Age of Autism
Although it was barbed, thanks for your input nonetheless.
My input is always barbed. I can't help it. I'm just spiky like that.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 102 of 209 (554659)
04-09-2010 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Apothecus
04-09-2010 1:06 PM


Re: Thimerosal does not cause autism
Apothecus writes:
Once again, the FDA has kowtowed to the anti-science fervor of the wing-nut crowd ...
I think its a mistake to put it that way.
A vaccine is useless if people are not actually vaccinated. IMO the FDA acted to increase the credibility of vaccines, so that more people might use them. It was not a matter of kowtowing.

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 209 (554661)
04-09-2010 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Granny Magda
04-09-2010 1:08 PM


Re: Vaccine-Denialism Not the Issue
Wow, looks like they've tarred and feathered Wakefield. Perhaps that's what he needed though for starting the hysteria.

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
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Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 104 of 209 (554666)
04-09-2010 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by nwr
04-09-2010 1:09 PM


Re: Thimerosal does not cause autism
Hey NWR.
Good point. There will always be those who are on the fence about vaccines who, after an allegedly harmful agent is withdrawn from a product, will then decide it's OK to use.
But the thing is, these aren't normally the people who are the most vocal about vaccines. Those screaming the loudest are the nutters who accuse the gov't of a vast vaccine conspiracy in which children are test subjects for some deeper purpose. Travesties such as Tuskegee, of course, give these folks ample ammunition (in their mind) to decry any government involvement in public health. They'd throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater in a NY minute, even as their actual child suffers life-threatening mumps-related swelling which could have been avoided otherwise...
I know quite a few families like this, as I'm sure all here do. When all is said and done, many of them would consider vaccines the equivalent of injecting sulferic acid into the jugular of their 2 year old, thimerosal or not, and regardless of the risks of non-treatment.
I still contend the FDA kowtowed; now whether it was to increase credibility, as you contend (and I'm not saying it's not -- it actually seems like a good reason) or just to appease the wingnuts, I still believe thimerosal (a good preservative) containing vaccines would be available for children to this day if not for the anti-vaccine crowd.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 105 of 209 (554672)
04-09-2010 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Apothecus
04-09-2010 1:45 PM


Re: Thimerosal does not cause autism
Apothecus writes:
Those screaming the loudest are the nutters who accuse the gov't of a vast vaccine conspiracy in which children are test subjects for some deeper purpose.
Yes, I agree with that. And nothing is going to persuade the nutters that vaccines are safe, not even the removal of thimerosal.
The main concern is with people who are sitting on the fence, who have heard of the controversy and are not sure how to respond to that. I see the FDA action as an attempt to reassure those people of the safety of vaccines by removing one on the causes of their uncertainty.

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