Is Jesus God?

I used Paul's words to confirm the fact that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God.I used Scripture to confirm the revelation of the Triune God. The FACT of it in the Bible is confirmed in the words of prophets and apostles and of course in Christ's words and deeds as well.The New Testament speaks of the enjoyment and experience of the Triune God. And the verses that I usually use to confirm the Three-One God are along the lines of the experience of the Christians, for example Romans 8:9-11.The Trinity is not that man may have a doctrine to puzzle over. The Trinity is for the dispensing of God's life into man for His expression and man's enjoyment.For example, the following passage is not a doctrinal or creedal statement. But it is a statment about the experience of the Triune God: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Cor. 13:14) This is a passage on the dispensing of the Triune God's life into His people. The emphasis is experience and enjoyment rather than a creedal doctrinal thesis for objective theological consideration.I know this is on the Triune God in experience because the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ is elsewhere called "the grace of God " (Rom. 5:15; 1 Cor. 3:10; 1 Cor. 15:10; 2 Cor. 8:1; Heb. 2:8; Jude 1:4).I also know that for the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ to be with my spirit is for Christ Himself to be with my spirit: " The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." (Phil. 4:23 "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)So I know that when I experience inwardly the grace of God I am experiencing the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact I am experiencing the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.I know that this passage is on Christ being dispensed into His people because for Paul to live Christ was to live by the grace of God.Compare: " ... it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ..." (Gal. 2:20)"I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I but the grace of God which is with me." (1 Cor. 15:10)One passage says "Not I ... but Christ that lives in me" and the other says "Not I ... but the grace of God which is with me" So I know that the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ in subjective experience is simply the experience of Christ Himself dispensed into my being.This grace is also the grace of "the Spirit of grace" (Heb. 10:29) So the Holy Spirit also embodies this divine grace.So there are many passages which stress the subjective enjoyment of the Triune God.Probably you have not experienced the indwelling of Christ so that these things seem like nonsense to the natural mind. JWs capture such scoffers into their cult. So you have become their spoil.Let me ask you this. Is Michael the angel in your being ?Can you find me a passage saying that Michael the angel will come to make his home in the believers?But we have the Father and the Son coming to His lovers to make an abode with them: Where does it say that Michael the angel will come and live in the Christians ?But we see Jesus Christ living in the Christians: So there is hope for you if you would receive Jesus Christ into your innermost being. The hope of glory is Christ in the believers: " ... the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles which is Christ in you the hope of glory." ( Colossians 1:27) The Trinity is spoken of in the NT for imparting God as life into man.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Read Jesus words carefully. They asked him if he was the Christ/Messiah...they didnt ask him if he was God. And Jesus admitted to being the Christ. Jesus then went on to say that the Christ is a SON of God. This is why they accused him of blasphemy...its because they didnt understand that the Christ was going to be a heavenly being. They beleived the christ was to be a man and a man only.... but Jesus words indicated that he was of a divine nature...this is what they objected to. So he never said he was God Almighty, he claimed to be a SON of God...to them this meant he was a heavenly being...a godlike one... a spirit from heaven but nowhere do we read that they believed he was calling himself God Almighty. im sorry that you dont like my disagreement with your teachings. If you'd prefer this debate to finish then i'm happy to end it here. I dont think there is much more we could discuss in terms of the trinity anyway.We've seen that there are numerous sources who disagree with the rendering of certain verses and we've seen that the catholic enyclopedia admit that the apostles did not teach the idea of the trinity. Its their own admission that really clinches the deal for me... no amount of twisting scriptures will convince me that its what the apostles meant in their writings.

Peg writes: The crowd took up stones to stone Him at the point where He said - "Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am." That was the last straw, when this Man before them identified Himself as the I AM, the preexisting and ever existing God.It is not a pretty sight to see someone like Peg in denial. It might be argued that if Christ was a created angel whose creation pre-dated the birth of the human Abraham, that might explain what Jesus meant.However, it was Jehovah God Who appeared in the burning bush in Exodus 3, speaking the words to Moses - "I AM WHO I AM..... you shall say to the children of Israel I AM has sent me to you." (Exo. 3:14)So for Jesus to say that He was the I AM Who existed before Abraham came into being was to make Himself Jehovah God who has spoken to Moses in Exodus ( Exo. 3:4;,6,7,11,12,13,14; 4:2,4,6,10,11,19;8:1, 3,10, 13) This was neither the first or last time the Jews sought to execute Jesus for saying that He was God, though being a man. They also sought to seize Him for execution because He said that the Father was in Him: "If I do not the works of My Father, do not believe Me; But if I do [them] even if you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may come to know and continue to know that the Father is in Me and I am in the Father.

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Then they sought again to seize Him, yet He went forth out of their hand." (John 10:37-39) Jesus was and is the mingling of God and man. And He came to mingle God with man. In this salvation He remains the Head of this union and His saved people become the Body of this union.
So to the church He is our Person to worship but also our Elder Brother.Jesus is God-Man by incarnation and resurrection. The church becomes God-men by Christ's salvation.Peg writes: Peg is saying that Jesus was persecuted because He tought what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach, that He was a created angel, ie. a created heavenly being.But, Jesus saying Before Abraham came into being, I AM implied to them that He was God Himself.It is true that created angels existed before Abraham came into being. It is also true that the One who spoke to Moses in Exodus 3 is first identified as the Angel of Jehovah (Exo. 3:2). But the Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah God are used interchangeably in the passage: "And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thornbush ... And when Jehovah saw that he had turned aside to look, God called to him out of the midst of the thornbush ... And He said , I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. And Jehovah said, I have surely seen the affliction of My people ..."" (See 3:2-7)The bottom line is that the I AM WHO I AM is Jehovah God. And Jesus the Man totally identified Himself with that God. He was not saying He was simply a heavenly creature or an angel Michael but Jehovah the ever existing, self existing eternal God.It is interesting that the vision of God was given as a thornbush on fire. Moses marveled that the bush burned but was not consumed. This is probably a prophetic symbol of the incarnation of God as a man.We would think that God and man could not be one. As the bush should be consumed by the flame so how could the created humanity co-exist with the glory, holiness, and righteousness of God Almighty.The thornbush may have been a symbol of the fallen man. Thorns and thistles were the result of man's fall. And Jesus came in the likeness of the flesh of sin yet without sin (Romans 8:3)"God, sending His own Son in the LIKENESS of the flesh of sin ..." Jesus came in the form of a fallen man. He came in the form of one of the cursed fallen descendents of Adam. Yet He had no sin in Him.The burning thornbush was a great sight which Moses had to turn aside to examine. And the mingling of God and a man in the form of a fallen son of Adam is also a great sight and revelation for us to see. Jesus is the real thornbush indwelt with the flame of God. He is the mingling of God and man.The opposing Jews of John 8 and the opposing Jehovah's Witnesses of today cannot accept the incarnation of Jehovah God as a man.Jesus said He lived in the Father and the Father lived in Him. And Moses refered to God as the One who dwelt in the bush (Deut. 33:16). When you compare verse 16 with verse 11 it appears that the whole blessing on Joseph involves Jehovah.So Jehovah God is the one who dwelt in the bush in Deut 33:16. And the Father is the One Who dwelt in the Son. And the Son given is even called Eternal Father in Isaiah's prophecy. The identification is total and Wonderful.Peg quotes what must be the JW's "translation" of the NT: Peg adds: Every English version I have read usually said that He made Himself God not "a god".Perhaps there are some English versions with "a god". I do not read ancient Greek very well. But I do not think this is what John meant to convey.There are many titles for Jehovah God in the Bible. God Almighty (El Shadai) is but one of many. It is not necessary to find specific passages saying that EACH one of these titles Jesus used to refer to Himself.It is sufficient to see that by saying I AM, the God Who existed before Abraham and Who spoke to Moses, was enough to convey that Jesus was saying He was the Old Testament God.Of course they were mad with Jesus for many things. It is also not necesary that we make every passaged showing the religionists opposition to Jesus had to do with Him teaching that He was God incarnate.The reply of Jesus, that the word of God came to those who were called gods, I think does not downplay that Jesus was making Himself God. Rather, I think, it underscores His mission that He came to bring His saved people into a mingling of God and man as well.He came to eventually be the Firstborn among many brothers (Rom. 8:28) And His longing that as the Father lived in Him the Father would also live in those SAVED by Him was seen.Consider this passage: If we touch the spirit of this passage we see that Jesus is encouraging His disciples that the realm He is in is also the realm for them to be in.If it were that only He could be the mingling of God and man, He would have told them. But He goes to the cross to accomplish redemption so that where He is they also may enter, namely into the reality of God mingled with man.This passage is not about Jesus going to Heaven to prepare mansions. It is about Jesus going to the cross to accomplish redemption to make a way for man to come into the Father. It is not simply that Jesus sought that sinners would be forgiven. Forgiveness is a means to accomplish the end of the union of God and man.Jesus is the object of worship as God / Man by way of incarnation and resurrection. Those for whom He prepares a place, that where He is they also may be, are the union of God and man by way of Christ's great salvation. They are not objects of worship.Jesus is the HEAD of this union of God and man. The church is to be the BODY of this mingling of God and man.If it were that only He could be in this life union with God He would have told us that it is impossible for us. As it stands, He can prepare a place for us to have a standing in God too. That is that where He is as a God-man, the redeemed sinners may also come to be.It is in this spirit that I believe Jesus spoke to the Jews in the passage in question. Do not put Him on such a pedestal that it mean God's people cannot also be God-men.From the creation of man, God placed man before the tree of life, signifying that God wanted to be taken into man to be united and incorporated into man.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

John 10:33 says 'you make yourself god' ok, however, the same word used in vs 33 is also used in vs 35 where Jesus said"if those ones he called gods..."Thats the same word being used and Jesus applied it to the Jews. So why should the use of the same word be read as 'God Almighty' in vs 33, but simply as Gods in vs 35?its not like the theo in vs 33 used the definite article so it shouldnt be read as a title...its merely a word. And seeing the word God or god is commonly used to denote something superhuman or something venerated in the minds of many it could mean either the Supreme Being, the Almighty, or it could mean a false god, such as an idol.Jesus response really shows that the jews were not saying they thought he was the almighty God for he reminds them that they too are called Gods. Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: You are gods’?

How is that any different that needing Peter's letters, or Revelations, to properly interpret the Old Testament?You should be asking yourself the same thing...

I already wrote something about this. Since gods in 35 is plural in the first instance and singular in the second instance, ie " ... he called gods with whom the word of God was ..." it should be clear that the one to whom the word of God came are not God Almighty. It is not that clear to whom He is speaking of. We only can ascertain that they were ones to whom the word of God came.Judging from Psalm 82 angels is a strong possibility. In the case of the Psalm those "gods" are behaving rather badly and are the object of the unique God's rebuke. His word coming to them is a scolding.Jesus, however, is the one Son of God consecrated and sent into the world with Whom the Father is well pleased at all times.I think Jesus is saying something like this:"These misbehaving ones to whom the word of God came were called gods in Psalm 82. You recognize that. But I, the have been consecrated and sent into the world and have behaved in glorious obedience. It is hypocritical for you to condemn Me because I said I am Son of God." "The works that I do in My Father's name these testify concerning Me."He behaves like the Son of God. How could He be blaspheming ? "If I do not the works of My Father, do not believe Me."In constrast those to whom the word of God came who were called gods were being rebuked, adjusted, and scolded by God in Psalm 82. How could Jesus be blaspheming to say He is Son of God when He obviously is acting like a Son of God?And as I tried to indicate above, Jesus is overjoyed that others could share with Him this expression of God. His heart is not just on being equal with God. His heart is on God being expressed through others like Himself.At any rate the passage, though arguable, is only one of so many others which are quite clearer. It goes without saying in the Jewish mind that there could not be multiple God Almightys [plural]. My Greek / English Intelinear has underneath the Greek in verse 33 - "Concernng a good work we do not stone thee but concerning blasphemy, and becasue thou a man being makest thyself God."Further grammatical issues concerning this passage I will leave to others to discuss, who fluently read and write New Testament Greek. If they would act like gods there would be little problem. Jesus lived as a Son of God. His speaking is backed up by His living. So He is not blaspheming to say He is Son of God.The passage may be arguable. But I think other passages are quite clear that the Son of God was God incarnate. Where is the overall weight of the evidence ?It is with Christ being God incarnate.

well i could be wrong, but i believe its the definite article which decides that, not plurality.If jesus was speaking to just one person, he would not have said 'Gods' he would have simply said 'God' or 'theos'. this is just a side point, but i though you said there were no other gods...that the idea that there are other gods is not in the bible and that it is polytheism to believe in such?Are you now acknowledging that the bible does speak of other god like individuals? So why would he not simply say "It is hypocritical for you to condemn Me because I said I am God"afterall, he did just remind them that they were also called Gods. yes i completely agree with that, they had no concept of a triune God. To them their Almighty God was a single entity...certainly not 3 in 1. this goes exactly the same way for christians too, being a 'son' of God does not make one God. Christians were told that they too can become children of God if they live as God wants them to live John 1:12-13 "However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; 13and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God"Then there is also the fact that God called Isreal (Jacob) his firstborn son. Was Jacob God?
Exodus 4:22-23 "And you must say to Phar′aoh, ‘This is what Jehovah has said: Israel is my son, my firstborn. 23And I say to you: Send my son away that he may serve me"

I am rather tired to continue tonight.But it sounds like you are thinking of Elohim, but that is Hebrew and not Greek.

SpamEdited by AdminSlev, : No reason given.

It was not I who said that there were no other Gods. It was Jehovah who said that there were no other Gods besides Him. "I am Jehovah and there is no one else; Besides Me there is no God .." (Isaiah 45:5) First let us be clear that "no other God besides Jehovah" is not jaywill's invention. Are we clear ? "Thus says Jehovah the KIng of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, AND APART FROM ME THERE IS NO GOD." This kind of Monotheism you must blame not on me but on Jehovah. He said it.Having established that, hopefully, we now deal with this little paradox in Psalm 82:1,6"God stands in the congregation of God; He judges in the midst of the gods ..." [ or judges, elohim Recovery Version footnote]" ... I said, You are gods, and all the sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you will die like men and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth; For You will inherit all nations." (Psalm 82:6-8) Here Jehovah, Who says there is no God besides Himself, says of some beings "you are gods, ... sons of the Most High"The angels were called sons of God in Genesis and in Job. Here in this Psalm it appears that the ones standing in the congregation of God could also be angels as "sons of god" or even "gods".Though they are called "gods" by the One Who declares there is no God besides Jehovah, they are not other self existing, ever existing, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent Creators of universes out of nothing, as Jehovah Elohim.They are not the Gods in the absolute sense that Jehovah means when He says that before Him was formed no God and after Him was formed no God - "Before Me there was no God formed, Neither will there be any after Me, I even I, am Jehovah; And there is no Savior besides Me." (Isaiah 43:10b-11) Sure there were mentioned other "saviors" and even other "gods". Even the glorified children of God could be called gods in some sense. They are children of God. And that which gives birth begets that which is like itself.But it is clear that there is no other self existing, ever existing, uncreated, Creator of the universe Who is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, the object of supreme worship.That is the monotheism the the Bible reveals.No other of these "gods" or sons of God, could even say "I AM WHO I AM". And this is what Jesus implied strongly in John 8 - "Before Abraham came into being, I AM".This Son of God is identified as the God Who laid the foundation of the earth according to Hebrews 1:10,11 & Psalm 102:25-27. In that Psalm the one being addressed is Jehovah God: Psalm 102:12 - "But You, O Jehovah, abide forever ..."
v. 18 - "And a people to be created will praise Jehovah"
v. 19 - "From heaven Jehovah beheld the earth."
v. 21 - "That the name of Jehovah may be declared in Zion"
v. 22 - "And the kingdoms, to serve Jehovah" Now let us continue the Psalm from verse 22 through 27: "He [Jehovah of v.22] has weakened my strength in the way; He [Jehovah of v.22] has shortened my days.
I said, My God [Jehovah of v.22] Do not take me away in the middle of my days;

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Your years [Jehovah's years] are throughout all generations. And You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They perish, but You endure; Indeed all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them, and they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years are without end." There is no question that the Psalm throughout is concerning Jehovah. And the writer of Hebrews leaves no doubt that the Holy Spirit is associating Psalm 102 with the Son of God: The Son is addressed as "O God".
The Son has His God, "therefore God, Your God."
The Son has partners - "Your God, has anointed You with the oil of joy above Your partners."The Son is also the Creator. All these can be true because of INCARNATION, REDEMPTION, and RESURRECTION . God became a man. As a man like us God incarnate gains "partners", namely those redeemed by His great salvation, His death and resurrection as the Firstborn Son of God. Yes. I acknowledge it, but not to the point of contradicting what Jehovah has said about His unique Godheadness.But Jehovah's Witnesses teach that there is a difference between Jehovah the Almighty God and the Mighty God. But Jehovah is clearly called BOTH.That is why I say you are under a teaching of polytheism. The opposing ones had no concept of God being incarnated either. John and his fellow Christian disciples gained this revelation and were saved.They gained revelation about what Jesus was and said. And they also gained revelation about what was written in the word of God of the Hebrew Bible, regardless of what kind of concept most of the Jews held.I think the main thing to grasp in John 8 and 10 is that Jesus stands on the fact that He lives and acts like God and the Son of God. He wants us to believe because it is obvious from His works that He is God incarnated.The resurrection is the crowning act. Who raised Jesus ? It is not like the raisings done by Elijah or Elisha. There was no other prophet around to bring Jesus back from the dead. It was the Father alone. And Jesus Himself mysterious said that He Himself had authority to lay down His life AND AUTHORITY to take it up again.In fact this act of resurrection was His obedience to the Father. This was His obedience to the charge of His Father. He demonstrated that He had and was the uncreated and indestructible divine life. He is not only the self existing I AM who was before Abraham. His human body is the temple of God. Should they destroy His human body, He Himself will raise it up in three days.We should not stagger at this mystery. We should believe into Christ and receive the confirmation of His Spirit dwelling in our hearts. Being a Christian does make one God but not in His Godhead. The Fatherhood is unique. The Christian will never be omnipresent or omniscient or an object of worship. The Christian will not be omnipotent or a Creator of universes.But collectively and corporately the saved Christians become the dwelling place of God in spirit. As Jesus was the dwelling place of God in a man so the saved are perfected into a dwelling place of God in spirit.They become God in life and in nature but not in the Godhead. Christ becomes the Firstorn Son among many brothers. The God in life and nature that the saved become is not another God. It is God dispensed and God imparted into the saved.God's eternal purpose is to dispense Himself into man. Deification of the believers is a whole subject in itself. My comment is brief on it here. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

but jaywill, dont you see that by making Jesus God, you infact contradict Jehovahs monotheism?

I am making Jesus God because Jesus made Jesus God.But put more clearly - Jesus is the mingling of God and man. In the man Jesus is the incorporation of divinity with humanity.I will not quote many verses in this post. I will relate what is going on in the Bible.God's is branching out of Himself and branching into humanity. Jesus was called prophetically The Branch or the Shoot. God created the universe to have sons. He wants to pour out His being into man.God is about dispensing His life and nature into man.Two things man underestimates:1.) The distance there between the fallen mankind and the eternal rightoue, holy, and glorious God.2.) The complete degree to which God RECONCILES the saved to Himself.This second point is what you doubt. You do not believe that God would want to dispense Himself into man. This oneness you cannot believe. This blending of God and man you cannot believe.But our Savior is God / Man. And He said that unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies it abides alone. But if it dies it bears much fruit.The life of God was concealed in the shell of Christ's humanity. In crucifixion the shell was broken and the life of God was released that Christ could produce many grains - ones like Himself.Christ retains the unique Godhead. He is the Second of the Triune God. But He also represents not only the act of redeeming with His blood but of duplication through His resurrection.The goal of God is to dispense Himself into man that man and God might become a mingled and united entity in which God retains the Godhead but the deified man becomes His dwelling place and Body.What the Trinity IS cannot be separated from what the Trinity is doing. That is God is dispensing His life and nature into man. God is imparting Himself into man for a mingling.The man Jesus is our God. And He is also to the church the Firstborn and Elder Brother.And the book of Hebrews speaking of these things says "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation ...?"

Interesting that the quote you give is lower case (as are the earliest translations) yet you turn around and capitalize it to show Jesus is god.Nowhere in the gospels dpes anyone exclaim that Jesus is god after this. Nowhere. Now, if this was meant as such a revelation, why is that? Surely from that point on the Jews, authors would have exclaimed that he was god. But they never do.Even more interesting, Jesus is taken before the high priest and the chief priests. They are looking for a reason to kill him. They even ask: "Are you the Christ?"? Mark 14:61. Wouldn't they have asked "Do you claim to be God?"? They brought in accusers and even false accusers, yet no one ever claimed Jesus stated he was god!"Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus in order that they might put him to death; .... And the high priest said to him, 'I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.'" - Matt. 26:59Here they invoke gods name, but not in relation to Jesus. Again they call him the Messiah, the SON of god.Seriously, if Jesus was thought of as god, why didnt they accuse him of that?On top of that, it does not even make sense to claim I AM is god (when Jesus is speaking) bc it would read:"Before Abraham came into being, god." How does this mean Jesus is god? Doesnt it make more sense that Jesus was stating before Abraham existed, Jesus did. Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

Jaywill,Can you show me a verse in scripture that states Jesus was god and man?Why would Jesus beg to not be killed, cry out on the cross for god to save him...if he was god?Using the excuse that it was his "man" aspect just doesnt work. It lacks evidence and makes little sense.Why does Jesus pray to god, claim he has a god..if he is god?You want to believe Jesus is god, preaching that he is god, but yet runs away when confronted by those trying to stone him? God runs away?Reve. 3:12 "‘The one that conquersI will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine. 13 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’Here, Jesus has shed he motal frame, he is a spirit. Yet he claims once again, he has a god.There are so many verses in the NT that clearly show Jesus is god. He is a man, sent by god. The messiah with a message. He is not equal to god, he is not all powerful, he is not all knowing, he prays and cries out to god.Those that do "show" Jesus to be god are few and could easily have other explanations, backed by evidence as to why Jesus is not god.

Sure, Phil 2 and Colssians chapter 1, Revelations 2:8EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.