Is Jesus God?

It was not I who said that there were no other Gods. It was Jehovah who said that there were no other Gods besides Him. "I am Jehovah and there is no one else; Besides Me there is no God .." (Isaiah 45:5) First let us be clear that "no other God besides Jehovah" is not jaywill's invention. Are we clear ? "Thus says Jehovah the KIng of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, AND APART FROM ME THERE IS NO GOD." This kind of Monotheism you must blame not on me but on Jehovah. He said it.Having established that, hopefully, we now deal with this little paradox in Psalm 82:1,6"God stands in the congregation of God; He judges in the midst of the gods ..." [ or judges, elohim Recovery Version footnote]" ... I said, You are gods, and all the sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you will die like men and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth; For You will inherit all nations." (Psalm 82:6-8) Here Jehovah, Who says there is no God besides Himself, says of some beings "you are gods, ... sons of the Most High"The angels were called sons of God in Genesis and in Job. Here in this Psalm it appears that the ones standing in the congregation of God could also be angels as "sons of god" or even "gods".Though they are called "gods" by the One Who declares there is no God besides Jehovah, they are not other self existing, ever existing, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent Creators of universes out of nothing, as Jehovah Elohim.They are not the Gods in the absolute sense that Jehovah means when He says that before Him was formed no God and after Him was formed no God - "Before Me there was no God formed, Neither will there be any after Me, I even I, am Jehovah; And there is no Savior besides Me." (Isaiah 43:10b-11) Sure there were mentioned other "saviors" and even other "gods". Even the glorified children of God could be called gods in some sense. They are children of God. And that which gives birth begets that which is like itself.But it is clear that there is no other self existing, ever existing, uncreated, Creator of the universe Who is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, the object of supreme worship.That is the monotheism the the Bible reveals.No other of these "gods" or sons of God, could even say "I AM WHO I AM". And this is what Jesus implied strongly in John 8 - "Before Abraham came into being, I AM".This Son of God is identified as the God Who laid the foundation of the earth according to Hebrews 1:10,11 & Psalm 102:25-27. In that Psalm the one being addressed is Jehovah God: Psalm 102:12 - "But You, O Jehovah, abide forever ..."
v. 18 - "And a people to be created will praise Jehovah"
v. 19 - "From heaven Jehovah beheld the earth."
v. 21 - "That the name of Jehovah may be declared in Zion"
v. 22 - "And the kingdoms, to serve Jehovah" Now let us continue the Psalm from verse 22 through 27: "He [Jehovah of v.22] has weakened my strength in the way; He [Jehovah of v.22] has shortened my days.
I said, My God [Jehovah of v.22] Do not take me away in the middle of my days;

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Your years [Jehovah's years] are throughout all generations. And You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They perish, but You endure; Indeed all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them, and they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years are without end." There is no question that the Psalm throughout is concerning Jehovah. And the writer of Hebrews leaves no doubt that the Holy Spirit is associating Psalm 102 with the Son of God: The Son is addressed as "O God".
The Son has His God, "therefore God, Your God."
The Son has partners - "Your God, has anointed You with the oil of joy above Your partners."The Son is also the Creator. All these can be true because of INCARNATION, REDEMPTION, and RESURRECTION . God became a man. As a man like us God incarnate gains "partners", namely those redeemed by His great salvation, His death and resurrection as the Firstborn Son of God. Yes. I acknowledge it, but not to the point of contradicting what Jehovah has said about His unique Godheadness.But Jehovah's Witnesses teach that there is a difference between Jehovah the Almighty God and the Mighty God. But Jehovah is clearly called BOTH.That is why I say you are under a teaching of polytheism. The opposing ones had no concept of God being incarnated either. John and his fellow Christian disciples gained this revelation and were saved.They gained revelation about what Jesus was and said. And they also gained revelation about what was written in the word of God of the Hebrew Bible, regardless of what kind of concept most of the Jews held.I think the main thing to grasp in John 8 and 10 is that Jesus stands on the fact that He lives and acts like God and the Son of God. He wants us to believe because it is obvious from His works that He is God incarnated.The resurrection is the crowning act. Who raised Jesus ? It is not like the raisings done by Elijah or Elisha. There was no other prophet around to bring Jesus back from the dead. It was the Father alone. And Jesus Himself mysterious said that He Himself had authority to lay down His life AND AUTHORITY to take it up again.In fact this act of resurrection was His obedience to the Father. This was His obedience to the charge of His Father. He demonstrated that He had and was the uncreated and indestructible divine life. He is not only the self existing I AM who was before Abraham. His human body is the temple of God. Should they destroy His human body, He Himself will raise it up in three days.We should not stagger at this mystery. We should believe into Christ and receive the confirmation of His Spirit dwelling in our hearts. Being a Christian does make one God but not in His Godhead. The Fatherhood is unique. The Christian will never be omnipresent or omniscient or an object of worship. The Christian will not be omnipotent or a Creator of universes.But collectively and corporately the saved Christians become the dwelling place of God in spirit. As Jesus was the dwelling place of God in a man so the saved are perfected into a dwelling place of God in spirit.They become God in life and in nature but not in the Godhead. Christ becomes the Firstorn Son among many brothers. The God in life and nature that the saved become is not another God. It is God dispensed and God imparted into the saved.God's eternal purpose is to dispense Himself into man. Deification of the believers is a whole subject in itself. My comment is brief on it here. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I am making Jesus God because Jesus made Jesus God.But put more clearly - Jesus is the mingling of God and man. In the man Jesus is the incorporation of divinity with humanity.I will not quote many verses in this post. I will relate what is going on in the Bible.God's is branching out of Himself and branching into humanity. Jesus was called prophetically The Branch or the Shoot. God created the universe to have sons. He wants to pour out His being into man.God is about dispensing His life and nature into man.Two things man underestimates:1.) The distance there between the fallen mankind and the eternal rightoue, holy, and glorious God.2.) The complete degree to which God RECONCILES the saved to Himself.This second point is what you doubt. You do not believe that God would want to dispense Himself into man. This oneness you cannot believe. This blending of God and man you cannot believe.But our Savior is God / Man. And He said that unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies it abides alone. But if it dies it bears much fruit.The life of God was concealed in the shell of Christ's humanity. In crucifixion the shell was broken and the life of God was released that Christ could produce many grains - ones like Himself.Christ retains the unique Godhead. He is the Second of the Triune God. But He also represents not only the act of redeeming with His blood but of duplication through His resurrection.The goal of God is to dispense Himself into man that man and God might become a mingled and united entity in which God retains the Godhead but the deified man becomes His dwelling place and Body.What the Trinity IS cannot be separated from what the Trinity is doing. That is God is dispensing His life and nature into man. God is imparting Himself into man for a mingling.The man Jesus is our God. And He is also to the church the Firstborn and Elder Brother.And the book of Hebrews speaking of these things says "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation ...?"

Thank you for a word of encouragement. It is really the word of God which is wonderful.I notice that we have above a request to find a verse where Jesus states that He is God and man.But let's give this a try. I can think of a verse or two where Jesus states that He is a man and the house of God. In other words He is a living vessel within Whom God lives. Here Jesus mentions Himself as the Son of Man. I think we can conclude that this is Jesus stating that He is a man.But about the rest? The angels ascending and descening upon the Son of Man is a reference to the vision of Jacob in Genesis 28. Jacob saw a ladder going up to heaven. And the angels of God were ascending and descending upon the ladder.Jacob refered to that place as Bethel which means "house of God" (Genesis 28:17) . This place Jacob called Jehovah's house, the house of God, Bethel. It is Jehovah God who spoke to Jacob in the dream (28:13).When Jesus referenced this passage, saying that Nathaniel would see the angels ascending and descending upon the Son of Man the strong implication is that He, Jesus the Man, is the human and living Bethel. He is the human house of Jehovah God. He connects the heavens to the earth. He connects the earth to heaven.The angels first going up and then afterward going down, suggest that the main activity is on the earth. "You shall see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man." God has an operation of establishing His dwelling place on the earth. At the time of the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ, this Son of Man was the living human house of Jehovah God. A Man was the dwelling place of Jehovah. A Man was the gate of heaven and a ladder connecting earth to the heavens and the reality of Bethel - the house of God.The revelation is reinforced in the very next chapter where Jesus, refering to His physical body calls it the temple of God. "Destroy this temple [the human Bethel] and in three days I will raise it up... But He spoke of the temple of His body." (See John 2:19,21)At the moment I would submit this as the confession that Jesus is a man - the Son of Man and God - living in His body of created flesh and blood is God. He, as a man, is the reality of Bethel the house of God. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

That is true in life and nature but not in His Godhead.But the deification of the believers is really another whole discussion. I already told you. I already tried to explain that Christ is our Head, the unique possessing the Godhead, an end of our worship.However, the church is the Body of Christ and is the habitation of God in spirit (Eph. 2:22)The saved human beings are being built into God. They are being built into a dwelling place of God in spirit, being also the mingling of God and man:Please look at this passage from Ephesians: Those saved are being built up together into a mingling of God and man so that corporately His Body the church becomes the dwelling place of God in spirit.God became a man so that man might become God in life and in nature but not in the Godhead.Now let us look at the words straight out of the mouth of the Lord Jesus in His mighty prayer to His Father before His crucifixion: The extensive and great salvation of God is to perfect the saved up into a oneness expressing the Triune God's glory. The Triune God dispenses His life and nature into His redeemed people and through the process of perfection, perfects them into oneness with Himself.This is why I spoke of the dispensing of God into man. This is not less then God creating man and placing man before the tree of life that man may take God's uncreated and divine life into himself that God may be assimilated into man.Jesus Christ is God from eternity - by way and process of incarnation, death, and resurrection. His Body, the temple and dwelling place of God in spirit, is perfected into God (not the Godhead) but God in life and nature and expression through Christ's salvation.Going back to the prayer of Jesus He continues: It is the will of the Father and the desire of the Son that the saved may be in the same realm as the Son. He is the man in the mingling of divnity and humanity. He is the God incarnated who became the One as the incorporation of God in man.God's creation of man and salvation of man is to bring man into this organic union with Himself.When the question is asked - "For to which of the angels has He ever said, You are My Son; this day I hhave begotten You?" (Hebrews 1:5) . There are only two answers. One is Gabriel and the other is Michael. Those are the only two angels mentioned in the Bible by name. Perhaps "Daystar" or the Latin "Lucifer" is a possibility.But really "To which of the angels ...?" must be answered with either Gabriel or Michael or to no angel.Now the Jehovah's Witness have the wrong response to this question of the word of God. They say "To which of the angels? Well, we will tell you to which of the angels. To Michael the angel! He's the one."This is wrong. Neither to Michael, nor to Gabriel nor to Daystar nor to any other angel was it said "You are My Son; this day I have begotten You. ... I will be a Father to Him, and He will be a Son to Me" (See Hebrews 1:5) You should stop answering this question of Hebrews 1:5 with the name of Michael. You should not use Revelation 12 to try to prove that Michael is this Son of God. Peg, let me say up front first that I know the New Testament reasonably well. There are two places in First Corinthians where Paul says to the believers that they are the temple of the Holy Spirit. One place he refers to the church as the corporate temple, in 1 Cor. 3:16. The other place as you noted is 1 Cor. 6:19. But here Paul refers to the individual bodies of the believers.The believers never become God in His Godhead. They never become an object of worship. The attributes of God which are not communicable are not ever to be partaken of by the Christians, though their bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.But those communicable attributes are being dispensed into the saved Christians. And this is why Peter says that the Christians have become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet. 1:4).It is important to see that this is not merely "worshippers of the divine nature" or merely "spectators of the divine nature". It is not merely the Christians are "witnesses or observers of the divine nature."They are PARTICIPANTS. They are PARTAKERS. They, through Christ's dispensing of God's life into man, become PARTAKERS of the divine nature.This makes us receivers of God's life and sons of God. In that sense we are God in life and nature but not in His Godhead. We do not have His Fatherhood. But we receive the impartation of His divine life and nature.Let me ask you this. God can express Himself in any manner. He taught Elijah the prophet, when Elijah was disappointed. God was not only expressed in the earthquake. God was not only expressed in the mighty wind so strong it could rip the mountain apart. God was not only expressed in the firestorm.God was expressed in a still small voice in Elijah's conscience.We tell you that Jesus is God. You stagger in doubt. But now I try to help you by informing you that God is not only expressed in absolute authority. God is also expressed in absolute obedience TO authority. God is expressed in absolute submission, perfect submission.The Triune God expresses this absolute authority and this absolute submission to authority - the Father and the Son. And the Holy Spirit, the Third of the Trinity dispenses and transmits this One's life and nature into man.Look again at the prayer of Jesus: This prayer must be answered. The answer to this mighty prayer is finally seen in Revelation 21 and 22. This mighty request of Jesus, this petition of the Father must be answered. The answer will extend unto eternity.The New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22 is a symbol of something profound. This tabernacle of God, this temple of God, this Bride and Wife of Christ, this holy city represents the dispensing of the Triune God into man for the mingling of God and man, an organic union of the Divine and human for God's expression and governmental administration and for man's enjoyment. We who have received Christ are indeed God men.We are under the perfecting and the building. It is not instantaneous transformation. But Christ is able to save us to the uttermost because He ever lives to make intercession for us (Hebrews 7:25) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Jesus is God processed to be "eaten" by man. "The Word became flesh" represents a kind of process. The Word Who was a God "became" what previously the Word was not - flesh. God was incarnated. The process of incarnation was not just so man could have a theological doctrine. The process was that Christ might redeem man and bring God into the redeemed man.Jesus becoming a life giving Spirit is also a step in this process. "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" is the second great becoming in Scripture. The second man, Christ, was the last Adam. He concluded one humanity and started a new one. To do this He became a divine life imparting Spirit - the Holy Spirit.I do not say that the Spirit of God is not eternal here. I do say that with the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the man Jesus Christ brought the Man Jesus of Nazareth and His humanity into the etenal Spirit. I am not sure how else we can understand "the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit" .But the main point is that the Word becoming flesh and the last Adam becoming a life giving Holy Spirit is not that man may have a doctrine. It is that God may impart His life and nature into man. The Triune God absolutely IS what He does. And that is to process Himself so that God can be disensed into man.Consider now Jesus as the Lamb of God. In the Feast of Passover the lamb was first killed and its blood put on the doorpost and on the lintel. This was to protect the believing ones inside the house that they may have peace. The destroying judgment would pass over them.But the lamb was not just slain. And it was slain for its blood of protection. It was slain to be eaten. And it was not eaten raw. It was cut into pieces and roasted with fire. This too was a process to make the lamb edible. The lamb was slain, cut, roasted and taken into the believers. Even in being eaten it was being further processed. It was being assimilated, chewed, and digested. Christians often pay far more attention to the blood of the lamb and neglect the roasting of the slain lamb and the feast of eating this lamb. The New Testament says to the Christians that Christ is our Passover. It is not that Christ is our Passover Lamb only. He is the our entire Passover (1 Cor. 5:7)The Triune God is processed through incarnation, death, resurrection, and becoming the life giving Spirit that God may impart God into man as man's "food".The thought of God being processed to be man's food is the concept of Jesus when He said that He was the bread of life. Let me ask you all, without going through a process, can Christ become bread ? To arrive at bread there must also be a process. Jesus saying He is the bread of life in John 6 reveals God being processed to be received as "food" for man.The Passover Lamb typifies the Lord Jesus. The Bread of life also does. God said that the Passover Lamb must not be eaten raw or boiled; it must be eaten roasted.Man is not to take in Christ simply as a humanistic martyr. To simply take Jesus as a example of a good person may be akin to taking the Lamb of God raw or boiled. But to take Him in "roasted" is to see He was prepared through the divine judgment of God.For the Lord Jesus to be our "bread of life" He also had to undergo a process. This typology of the slaying, roasting, and eating of the Lamb of God represents the Triune God passing through a process to dispense Himself into man. And Jesus coming down from heaven as the bread of life also represents the Triune God being processed that He might dispense His life into man.I will continue.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

We have been debating here whether Jesus is God. Some posters will never accept that Jesus is God. The trading of passages and appealing to scholars will be endless.I will suggest WHY the incarnation of God into man is a problem for many religious minded people. It is because their religious concept has no revelation of God being processed to be "eaten". They have no revelation of God going through steps to be able to impart Himself into man as "food".In the book The Subjective Truths in the Holy Scriptures Witness Lee writes: If we read carefully John chapter 6 we see eventually Jesus is speaking of taking in the Spirit as eating His flesh and drinking His blood, "Does this stumble you? Then what if you saw the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?

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It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." (John 6:62,63)We must receive the Spirit to eat Jesus. The last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45). And it is the Spirit that gives the divine life. To eat Jesus we have to take in His words without resistance and we must receive the Holy Spirit embodied in those living words.I am saying that the Triune God has passed through a process economically that the the Son of God not only shed His blood for the sinner's redemption, but was roasted under the divine judgment, resurrected to become a life giving Spirit that He might enter into man as man's food. This is that we may live by Him. As He lived by His Father if we eat Jesus we also will live because of Him. "As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57) I said before that in the Bible we cannot separate what the Triune God is from what the Triune God is doing. The Triune God is not that man may have a puzzling doctrine. The Trinity is God performing His operation of dispensing God as divine and eternal life into man that man may "eat" God and live out God.It is likely that objectors will fall back into debating the objective worship of Who God is. They will argue that Jesus is not God. They will argue that Paul never taught the doctrine of the Trinity, so on and so forth. I expect that some will only notice that I somewhat made lightly of bowing to worship God. They may object that God is to be reverenced. They may be right but in a shortsighted way. God is meant to be "eaten".In this post I have tried to tie the matter of the Triune God into His plan to dispense Himself into man. Never forget these two "becomings" of God - " ... the Word BECAME flesh" (John 1:14)
" ... the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)These becomings reveal the Triune God's plan to dispense Himself as life into His redeemed and justified people that God and man might be united and mingled together for God's expression and His people's enjoyment.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

No. I do not think either that Jesus is God incarnate is wrong nor that the history will conclude with God and man mingled together to match Christ as His "Bride" and has God's "temple" is wrong.At least one part of my being is God already. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17).Here two spirits are involved - the created human spirit and the uncreated eternal Holy Spirit. Because I have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus my human spirit has been joined to the Spirit which is God Himself. The two have become in me "one spirit" . One part of by being is God. Or I can say one part of my being is joined and mingled with God.The two spirits are no longer separated. Within me they have become "one spirit" according to 1 Cor 6:17.Now consider that fallen man was not only alienated from knowing God. Fallen man was alienated from the life of God (Eph. 4:18).We must ask if the life of God is God? What could be more subjective to a person than the life of that person? The life of God is surely God Himself. And man after being excluded from partaking of the tree of life was ever after "alienated from the life of God". This proves that God not only desires to be worshipped. God desires to be LIVED.Actually, the true worship of God is to live God. That is to live out God. That is to allow God to live through us and for us to really live God.So man, in the fall of Adam, was "alienated from the life of God". Especially the Gospel of John is about God coming to us in Christ to end this alienation from the life of God. In Him was life. And the life was the light of men. Christ the bread of life. Bread is to be eaten. Bread goes through a process of preparation that it could be eaten.Christ in John's gospel is the bread of life. In Him is life. He is the resurrection and the life. He is the way, the truth, and the life. In His resurrection He says that because He lives we also shall live. This live is to live God. This live via His resurrection is for God as life to be dispensed into man.Now I said that my regenerated spirit is"one spirit" with the Holy Spirit. Now I also said that one part of my being is God because of this joining, this mingling of the divine Spirit with my regenerated human spirit.Now, I am no longer "alienated from the life of God". Rather my regenerated human spirit IS life. My human spirit is the life of God. Do not scoff. Listen to Romans 8:10 - "... the spirit is life because of righteousness ".Righteousness has been imputed to me through the Christ being imparted into me. My human spirit is divine life because of righteousness. The spirit of the man or woman who has been born again, is life, the life of God, because of righteousness.Rather than being alienated from the life of God because of unrigheousness, my human spirit has become mingled with God the Spirit because of righteousness.Paul can say that for him to live is Christ. He can say when Christ our life shall appear then we Christians shall also appear with Him in glory.John 17 speaks of the believers being perfected into one. The beginning of this perfecting is in our being born of God that our spirit may be divine life because of righteousness. Then God will spread into our soul and into our body to saturate the redeemed. This requires PERFECTING.This calls for arriving and the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God as Ephesians speaks. God wants to express Himself in man.Do not think God only want to express Himself as the mighty fire on the top of Mount Sinai. He was there for 40 days and the Hebrews got tired of it. They made an idol and called it their god. They expected their new idol god to lead them back to Egypt.God desires to dispense Himself into man as life. That is that the school boy, the office worker, the house wife, the executive, the mechanic, the secratary, the prisoner in jail, the boss, the employee, the man or woman doing mundane things around the home may live Christ and express God in man.Our God is the man Jesus. That is clear. And this process of perfecting into oneness with one another and with the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit will consummate in a marriage.The "city" of New Jerusalem becomes the Wife of Christ. She matches Christ. She is perfected into a counterpart of Christ. She is Mrs. Jesus Christ. She is Mrs. God in a sense very real.You did not notice? God brought the rib out of Adam. HE built it up into a woman. He brought the woman to the man and the two became one flesh.This is not simply a story about the marriage of Adam and Eve. This is a window into the eternal purpose of God. Out of one He made two. Then He brought the two together to be one. This is a window into the entire divine revelation of the Bible. And the Bible concludes in Revelation 21 and 22 with God in Christ marrying a city, New Jerusalem. They are the sons of God. They are corporately the temple of God. And they match Christ to marry Christ. And Christ is the mingling of God and man.Here in the city, man is brought back to "the tree of life". He is has regained the right to eat of the tree of life. This means for eternity God dispenses Himself into man. "Blessed are those who wash their robes that they might have right to the tree of life and may enter into the gates into the city." (Rev. 22:14) The life if God Himself in His communicable attributes and divine nature and expression.The mingling of the numbers 4 and 3 is seen in New Jerusalem. For example, there are three gates on the four sides of the city. This makes 12 gates. This is not the 7 we see in earlier chapters. This is not the addition of 3 and 4. This is the multiplication of 3 and 4. This multiplication represents a mingling.The number 3 symbolizes the Triune God. The number 4 symbolizes the creature of God's creation, especially man. Earlier we see many 7s. There are 7 lamps. There are 7 seals. There are 7 Spirits of God. There are 7 trumpets. There are 7 bowls. These sevens involve the unique God symbolized by 1 bringing His creation, symbolized by 6, to Himself. It is also the Triune God, 3, adding to Himself His created man, 4.But the number 12 is a number of perfection in eternity. This is not the addition of 3 plus 4 but the mingling of 3 times 4. This is why we see four sides of the city opened to the four directions of the earth, each with three gates. The meaning is the mingling of God and man.The Spirit of God and the Bride of the Lamb are so mingled together that they speak as one - "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who is thirsty come; let him who wills take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17) You would expect that at a wedding it would say that the Bride and the Bridegroom would say "Come!". This invitation is from the Spirit and the Bride. The Bridegroom Jesus Christ, has become the life giving Spirit. And as the life giving Spirit the Bridegroom has been imparted into the Bride. So the oneness of the Bride and her Bridegroom, Christ, Who is the Spirit causes the Spirit and the Bride to speak as one: "The Spirit and the Bride say Come!".God and man are mingled for eternity. But Christ as God and having the Godhead is the Head of this marriage. The Bride is the Body of this Person and she is under the Head. Yet she is mingled and united with the Head.No one said that the Bible was always easy to understand. But these signs are expressing a profound reality that is taught in plainer words throughout the Bible. The Bridegroom, the Son of God, the Son of Man, became a life giving Spirit. And as this life giving Spirit He is a "drink" - the water of life. He is the river of the water of divine life to flow into the city of God to mingle God and man together for His eternal administration. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't feel to say more about John 8:58. Let's just wait and see. Maybe we're wrong. Let's just wait and see what it meant for Jesus to say "Before Abraham came into being, I AM."Now this question afterwards I find a little interesting.I would ask you, HOW did God get into the believers then if receiving Christ was not recieving God ?I would also ask you , WHY is it necessary, if God is in the believers, to also have Christ in the believers ?I know that God is in the believers because "there is one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and IN all." (Eph. 4:6)The "all" here is not all the world. But it is all the members of the Body of Christ. So if God is in all, if the Father is in all, how did He get into all the members of Christ's Body ? Where are we told that God enters into the believers ?Furthermore, if Christ is in the constituents of His Body, why? Is it not enough for God the Father to be in all ? But Paul says that we should test ourselves to see if we are in the faith and that if Jesus Christ is in us.Why is there a need for Jesus Christ to be in us if God the Father is in us ?The truth is that Jesus and His Father as the Divine "WE" came together to make an abode with the lovers of Jesus (John 14:23)And furthermore, Romans 8:9-11 use these terms interchangeably:The Spirit of God
The Spirit of Christ
Christ
The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the deadThe One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in the believers. But His title is interhangeable with the Spirit of Christ. And it is further interchangeable with Christ Himself - "and if Christ be in you ..."
So the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has been dispensed into the believers. And this is salvation.Where does it say Michael the angel will come to live in the Christians ? If you Heretic are not also a JW, then you may ignore that question.However, the Father is in the believers and Christ is in the believers and the Holy Spirit is in the believers, according to the Bible. And we can detect NO DISCERNABLE DIFFERENCE.So "Triune" - "Three-one" is a useful expression to discriibe this mysterious indwelling God. He is three-one. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Understood.

Where did you address my question about where the Bible says that Michael the angel will come to dwell within the Christians ?As to your question, it is more important that they condemned Jesus for how He acted. Yes, they condemned Him for saying He was the Son of God. Yes, in spite of your protests, they would stone Him for saying He was the I AM.I think it is clear the Jesus acted as God / Son of God. And He pressed the opposers to explain how the Son of David could be called Lord by David. And various other passages which caused an accumulative reaction to Christ's deeds and ministry.The child born in Isaiah's prophecy was to be called Mighty God. If you do not call Him Mighty God, millions of others throughout history have done so. And the Son given in Isaiah 9:6 will be called Eternal Father. And Jesus told Philipp, when he asked to be shown the Father - "Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Philip ? " (John 14:9) In this instance it would have been quite simple for Jesus to say "And you have not known [Him], Philip?"But He didn't say that. And John the Evangelist is careful to include Jesus's reply that left no separation between He and His Father: "Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how is it that you say, Show us the Father ?" (John 14:9)This is important too, and not only what Jesus was condemned for by the opposers. They were mad with Him for many things.Jesus goes on to speak of the mutual indwelling of the Father in Him and He in the Father - "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you, I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works." (v.10) Jesus could well have said something like this "Philip, didn't you read Isaiah 9:6 ? Don't you remember that it said that the child born would be called the Mighty God ? Don't you remember that the Son given would be called Eternal Father? How can you ask Me then to show you the Father? Do you mean after all this time you still don't know Me."What the Jews said at the trials of Jesus are important. But they are not the only things written which are important. And we do not base our Christology solely on what accusations were uttered at His trial.Jesus, and the New Testament is very careful to show that by the Son being God this does NOT mean that the Son was not also at that time a MAN. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Are you not the ones who are continuing the persecution of Jesus? You appear to still be fighting against Him.They had their reasons to oppose Him. You have your reasons to oppose Him.Sure you do. You oppose Him for saying that before Abraham came into being, He, Jesus, is proclaimed I AM.It seems that Jesus is still on trial in your court. You still want to try Him for saying that He was the First and the Last in Revelation 1:17. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

There is plenty of common ground between the skeptics and atheists who haunt this Forum and the Jehovah's Witnesses. They both share the common ground of rejecting the Bible.As for you plea for simplicity, I don't think you can get simplier than the first chapter of John. The Word that was God was God. And the Word became flesh. (John 1:1,14) It could be that this is something you will not realize until the day you receive Christ. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Oh, it has been discussed for many yeasrs. And the evidence of the discussion to most Christian scholars is that people like yourself will go to complicated lengths to deny what the word of God is saying.Can you fluently read and write New Testament Greek?I cannot myself. However, 12 people besides myself hired a professor from the Episcapal Theological School in Cambridge Mass as a tutor in the late 80s. His name was Dr. Eugene Van Ness Goetchius.Dr. Goetichius was the author of the text that we used in his class on Greek. The title of the book was "The Language of the New Testament". Its published by Charles Scribner's Sons, from New York.This man was an expert on New Testament Greek language. In fact he jokingly told us that he thought the best way to learn the New Testament Greek language was to write a text book on it.Anyway, I can assure you that Dr. Goetichus would not agree with you that John 1:1 has two Gods. I can remember him going over the problem is what impressed me as a fair minded and balanced approach showing that the understanding of two Gods in John 1:1 was less likely of the author's intention.Why don't the "Translators" of the Jehovah's Witnesses "New World Translation" identify themselves and their credentials ? I can never see who the "translators" are of this English version of the Bible.I am given the answer that they do not identify themselves because of some profound sense of humility. Frankly, this sounds artificial to me.I think you should have stuck to the 1901 American Standard Bible which Watchtower Society use to print and distribute. At least in your former championed version one chould see who the translators were.Furthermore, that version clearly revealed that the teaching of a difference between Jehovah the Almighty God and the Mighty God was proved to be an error.Jehovah is the Mighty God - " ... the great, the mighty God, Jehovah of hosts is his name ... ( Jeremiah 32:18 1901 ASV ) "The Mighty One, God, Jehovah, hath spoken." (Psalm 50:1 1901 ASV ) "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace ..." (Isaiah 9:6, 1901 ASV )So the Apostle John confirms that the Word that was with God, the Mighty God, was the Mighty God and was incarnated. The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us - [b]"( and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father ), full of grace and truth." (John 1:14b 1901 ASV).This child - "the Mighty God," and this Son - the " Everlasting Father" has been "unto us".I am afraid that though He has been unto you you have rejected Him. And as we have received grace and truth from this One I am afraid that you have not received anything from this One because you have not received Him.You have instead trusted in your arithematic. Too bad. "But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name ...who were born ... of God " (v. 12 1901 ASV ) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You don't want to answer about an indwelling Michael the angel? Okay, we'll leave that to Peg. I don't know if you are a Russell student of the Watchtower theology. I said that we do not derive our beliefs about Christ solely based upon what was charged at His one or more trials.Going over each trial would be an interesting study, as to what He was accused of. But the matter of Jesus being God incarnated does not stand or fall upon what He was accused of at a trial.The charges are informative. But the accumulated teaching of the Gospels is more significant.For example, here we see Jesus claiming to be the God of the Old Testament who hovered as a protective bird over Jerusalem: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! " (Matthew 23:37) It was always God Himself who cared for Jeerusalem, as a bird flutters over her young (Isa. 31:5; Deut. 32:11-12). So when the Lord Jesus said, "I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings," He indicated that He was God Himself.I repeat again, the New Testament is careful that we do not make the mistake that because Jesus is God He must not be a man. He is God and man mingled. In the following verse to v.23 He says "Behold, your house is left to you desolate. For I say to you, You shall by no menas see Me from now on until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." (v.38,39) This passage reveals that Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament who was the bird like protector over rebellious Israel and He also comes as a man in the name of the Lord. He is both God and man. To the Christians, it is true "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:26) . The Christians being sons of God is because the only begotten Son of God accomplished a salvation on our behalf. In resurrection He became the Firstborn Son of God and all His brothers have been regenerated through the resurrection of Jesus Christ: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." ( 1 Peter 1:3) The Christians being made sons of God in salvation does not make Christ not God incarnate. Yes, it does place us on a shared status to a great degree. But it does not nullify that the Word Who was with God and was God became flesh.You cannot on one hand use the Christians being regenerated children of God as a tool to deny that God was incarnate in Jesus. And on the other hand you cannot use the Christians being sons of God as proof that they possess the Godhead as the omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent Creators of universes.The word "Son" and "sons" may be used. But there is no confusion over Who is the Source of divine life and who are the recipients of this life through His salvation.The human's need for the Son's salvation proves that He is the Source and not we. You peak my interest to look again at all the trials. However, you have no case by these trials to nullify the incarnation of God in a man Jesus. He is God/man in the Bible.When we look at the speech that Stephen gave in Acts 7 we see him trace much of the history of the confict between Israel and their God. Stephen makes his way through much of the Old Testament history and arrives at a firey conclusion: "But Solomon built Him [God] a house. Yet the Most High does not dwell in that which is made by hands, even as the prophets says, Heaven is My throne, and earth is a footstool for My feet. What kind of house will you build for Me, says the Lord, or what is the place of My rest? Has not My hand made all these things?

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You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in hgearts and ears, you always oppose the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, you also do.

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Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand concerning the coming of the righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become. You who received the law as ordinaces of angels and did not keep it." (Acts 7:48-53)Stephen concludes his review with a reference to Isaiah 66 about the house for God to dwell in. In that passage God says that He will look not to a temple made with hands, much less the starry universe for a dwelling place. Rather He will look to a certain kind of man: "But to this kind of man will I look, to him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word," (v.2b)The dwelling of God in a man is strongly implied in Stephen's summary. God arrives on the earth dwelling in a man. And this man is Jesus of Nazareth the virgin born Son of God. Jesus Himself reinforces this revelation by challenging the religionists that if they destroy the temple of His body He will raise it up in three days.For this word about raising the temple of God in three days, they were furious with Him: "Now the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were seeling false testimony against Jesus so that they might put Him to death, And they did not find it, though many false witnesses came forward.

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But latter two came and said, This man said, I am able to destroy the temple of God and build it up in three days." (Matt. 26:59-61) This was the last straw to the chief priests. And what follows in Matthew is their insistence that He admit that He is teaching to be the Son of God.The Son of God is the man in whom God dwells. God finds His rest and expression in being mingled with this man. This is the One to Whom God looks - greater than Solomon's temple, greater in fact than the physical heavens and earth. God comes as a man. And He proves it by rising from the dead once "destroyed" seemingly by the religious opposers. Yes Jesus did claim to be God and man. By claiming to be God He did not mean that He was not a man or even was not a created one. God created man according to Genesis 1:26. So for Jesus to call Himself the Son of Man He acknowledges that He is an item of God's creation. Flesh, which the Word became, is undeniably an item of the creation of God.Yet at the same time if He is the God of the Old Testament who hovered protectively over Jerusalem as taught in Matt. 23:37 He is teaching that He is the eternal and uncreated Jehovah - So Jesus teaches that He is God Himself. It makes perfect sense to me. I AM implies that He alone is the very ground of being. Only He is. Only He is self existing and ever existing. God alone "calls things not being as being" (Rom. 4:17).Only He is absolute uncreated Being. I AM THAT I AM was the one who sent Moses. "I AM" also means that He is whatever man needs. He is all-sufficient. What we are not He is able to be. He is the life.He is the divine life of the tree of life. Only God is self existing, self sufficient, ever existing and uncreated. All things derive their dependent being from His absolute being. It has everything to do with Jesus.Who else in human history as a born child better qualifies to be called Mighty God ? Please don't say Hezekiah because I think Hezekiah himself would not admit that.Who else in world history is the Son better qualified to be called Eternal Father ? Please don't say David because I am sure David would say "I am not that good".Isaiah 9:6 is a prophecy that has to point to Jesus Christ. And for Jesus to say that the Father is in Him and He is in the Father and that to see Him is to see the Father, is to confirm He realized that Isaiah was prophesying concerning Himself.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The Bible claims that. The claim did not originate with man's word, but God's.For example, the child born is Mighty God. And the Son given is Eternal Father in Isaiah 9:6. The most prominient recipient of these promises is Jesus Christ. He is the mingling of God and man. To mingle two or more things together mean to combine them in such a way that the component remain distinquishable in the combination.In the Jesus Christ we discern God and we discern man. The word mingled is also biblical. In the typology of the meal offering, a type of Christ, the fine flour was to be mingled with oil. Some scholars have pointed out that this was a symbol of the incarnation of God in man to be an offering for sinners. The fine unleavened flour signifies His pure humanity. And the oil symbolizes the eternal Spirit of God.Franze Delitzsch in his Old Testament Commentary draws attention to the usage of the words "mingled" and "anointed" in Leviticus 2:4. The double usage serves to increase the significance of the word "mingle". "And when thou offerest an oblation of a meal-offering baken in the oven, it shall be unleavened cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, or unleavened wafers anointed with oil." (Lev. 2:4, A.S.V.)J.N. Darby elaborates on this symbolism. The significance of the meal offering being a mingling was also expounded by Hesychius of Jerusalem (A.D. 410-450). Jo hn Calvin A.D ( 1509 -1564) expounded the symbolism too.And Thomas Newberry, author of The English-Man's Bible also called The Newberry Bible wrote this about the Person of Christ as symbolized in Leviticus 2:4: In Jesus Christ God and man are mingled together. So we believers may say that Jesus is God. By this time the incarnation had not taken place. So it is understandable for God to say that then He is not a man.
The Word had not yet become flesh (John 1:14).To be fair, God did appear in human form in the Old Testament. But the 9 months He spent in the woman's womb and the subsequent birth as a child had not occured.So God saying that He is not a man in Hosea is not a problem to the incarnation. The same applies to this passage of Numbers 23:19.Now on the throne of the universe is a Man who is God. He is God/Man Jesus Christ our Lord.Even if you respect Him as the finest and highest Man who ever lived you have to admit that honesty must be one of His characteristics. There was no lying in His mouth.So we have to examine what this very honest Person said about Himself. And He said that He was God, ie. (Matt. 23:37). God is now a truth speaking Man who says that He is the way and the truth and the life. And no one comes to the Father except through Him - (John 14:6) Isaiah 9:6 has two tracks in its prophecy.1.) the born child is the Mighty God.
2.) The son given is the Eternal Father.Jesus Christ is the best recipient of this prophecy. So we believe that Jesus the Son of God, the Son of Man is Jehovah the Mighty God (Jeremiah 32:18; Psalm 50:1 ) to be born into humanity to be our Lord and Savior. By that time before the incarnation, this was true. There is no contradiction. "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us" (John 1:14) This occured long after the lifetime of the prophet Samuel. You are ignoring Isaiah 9:6. If a child is to be called Mighty God it must be that He is that which He is called. If a given Son is to be called Everlasting Father it must be because He is that One. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.