Is Jesus God?

Jaywill,Can you show me a verse in scripture that states Jesus was god and man?Why would Jesus beg to not be killed, cry out on the cross for god to save him...if he was god?Using the excuse that it was his "man" aspect just doesnt work. It lacks evidence and makes little sense.Why does Jesus pray to god, claim he has a god..if he is god?You want to believe Jesus is god, preaching that he is god, but yet runs away when confronted by those trying to stone him? God runs away?Reve. 3:12 "‘The one that conquersI will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine. 13 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’Here, Jesus has shed he motal frame, he is a spirit. Yet he claims once again, he has a god.There are so many verses in the NT that clearly show Jesus is god. He is a man, sent by god. The messiah with a message. He is not equal to god, he is not all powerful, he is not all knowing, he prays and cries out to god.Those that do "show" Jesus to be god are few and could easily have other explanations, backed by evidence as to why Jesus is not god.

Can you show me a verse in scripture that states Jesus was god and man? First two state the opposite, as covered already. Not sure what you are refering to with Revelation. Sorry. Is it Ema or Eam? You often give both! LOL!

Ema,You're still giving the same few verses which time and time again have been shown to be mistranslated or out of context.A simple question:Exodus 7:1 1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee elohiym to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.Moses is clearly called elohiym, which is god. God made Moses this way.Is Moses god? Yes or no?John 9:9 (King James Version)9Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, ego eimi (I am).Is the blind man in this verse god? Yes or no?Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

Interesting that the quote you give is lower case (as are the earliest translations) yet you turn around and capitalize it to show Jesus is god.Nowhere in the gospels dpes anyone exclaim that Jesus is god after this. Nowhere. Now, if this was meant as such a revelation, why is that? Surely from that point on the Jews, authors would have exclaimed that he was god. But they never do.Even more interesting, Jesus is taken before the high priest and the chief priests. They are looking for a reason to kill him. They even ask: "Are you the Christ?"? Mark 14:61. Wouldn't they have asked "Do you claim to be God?"? They brought in accusers and even false accusers, yet no one ever claimed Jesus stated he was god!"Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus in order that they might put him to death; .... And the high priest said to him, 'I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.'" - Matt. 26:59Here they invoke gods name, but not in relation to Jesus. Again they call him the Messiah, the SON of god.Seriously, if Jesus was thought of as god, why didnt they accuse him of that?On top of that, it does not even make sense to claim I AM is god (when Jesus is speaking) bc it would read:"Before Abraham came into being, god." How does this mean Jesus is god? Doesnt it make more sense that Jesus was stating before Abraham existed, Jesus did.John 9:9 (King James Version)9Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, ego eimi (I am).Is the blind man in this verse god? Yes or no?Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

A simple question:
Exodus 7:1 1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee elohiym to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.Moses is clearly called elohiym, which is god. God made Moses this way.Is Moses god? Yes or no? What is embarrassing is your rant. My question has NOTHING to do with your initial question. God calls Moses god. From your words, why is that? My question has NOTHING do with with Hebrews 1:8. This has been covered already quite a few times. It references back to Pslam 45, which if read in context, Hebrews 1:8, it clearly shows its not about Jesus. But again, my question has NOTHING do with with Hebrews.Now, if you're done with your rant, can you answer a simple question?Why did god call Moses god?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John 9 has NOTHING do with my initial question. You're very confused, arent you? As I have already pointed out last time we debated, they picked up stones for a few reasons. He claimed to be the messiah. He also called the Jews children of Satan.Now to get back on topic, you claim is that since Jesus said "I am" it MUST refer back to Exodus? First, it does not even make sense to state: Before Abraham, god. How does this show Jesus is god? It would only make sense if Jesus stated, "Before Abraham, I have always been god" or something of the sort. You lack any evidence whatsover to show Jesus is refering back to Exodus. All you have done is take the word "I am".Its the exact word that I have shown is used elsewhere. If your logic is that "I am" means god, then the blind man in the example I gave is also god! Same words. I AM.

I'll ask for a third time:Your claims are that there are clear cut examples in the gospels that Jesus is god. This is a capital offense to the Jews.Yet when before the High priest and the council, not one person made this claim. Not one. They brought in witnesses and even had false witnesses....to find ANY evidence against Jesus.Not one person made the claim that he claimed to be god.Why is that? Peg and I have easily shown in the gospels that the few verses which you assert show Jesus as god have other explanations once the context is examined.Now, if Jesus went around claiming to be god and he was going to be stoned for this, why wasn't this brought up at the trial?There really is a simple explantion. Jesus NEVER claimed to be god.He was the son of god. Not god the son. He made it clear the message he spoke was NOT his, but god. He made it clear that the father was his father and his god. He made it clear when he prayed and begged to god. He made it clear god gave him powers and abilities, made him divine to carry a message, to set examples.Jesus never once in the gospels ever stated he was god. Nor did the Jews ever assume this.

A simple question:
Exodus 7:1 1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee elohiym to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Moses is clearly called elohiym, which is god. God made Moses this way.
Is Moses god? Yes or no? Sigh.... Another rant, another non-answer. Its a simple question. Actually, if you wish to be taken seriously: stop jumping to conclusions, stop creating strawman arguments, stop avoiding questions and stop the insults.Case in point: My question has nothing to do with Hebrews as you assumed. My question has nothing to do with "if' god can be created. All I did was take scripture and ask YOU what it meant. Thats it.Its an actual quote from the Bible. I'm asking you to tell me what it means. Why is that so difficult?The scripture Trinitarians use in the gospels is so flimsy (except John 1:1), that its very damning that the High Priest and the Council would have easily brought up the fact Jesus claimed to be god...if thats what he did. They wanted evidence to put Jesus to death. Claiming to be god is a major offense. Yet they didnt make the claim, the actual witnesses to Jesus didnt make the claim nor did the false witnesses make the claim.So I asked (now for the fourth time) why is that? Does it make more sense that Jesus never claimed to be god hence why they didnt use that as evidence or that he did claim to be god, but they decided not to mention it?I also asked why the blind man is not god since he also claimed "I am"? You are adamant that since Jesus in John 8, said "I am", it MUST refer back to Exodus. You refuse to accept any other possibility. This is a perfect example of context.First, it makes no sense to state "Before Abraham, god" to answer the question how he new him, since Abraham existed 2000 years earlier. It makes perfect sense to claim "Before Abraham, I existed".I'm going to throw on a fourth question. If Jesus was divine, the messiah, the son of god, but NOT god himself, how would this change anything regarding salvation?

Jay,I've asked Ema a few times to no avail. I asked you once but I guess you missed it.If Jesus was walking around claiming to be god, why didnt the High Priest and the Council accuse him of this?To state one is god, is a huge offense. The High Priest and Council were looking for evidence against Jesus.All they had to do was claim he made such a statement. They never did.All the witnesses brought forth should have made this statement. They never did.Even false witnesses were brought forth. They never did.If Jesus was claiming to be god, why was it never mentioned?Even at the trial before the High Priest and Council..he is called the "son of god", the "messiah", but never god.Why?

I told you to stop jumping to conclusions and just answer the question. You STILL keep jumping to conclusions. Is answering a question without your silly rhetoric that difficult? I NEVER said god told Moses he was actually god!!! What part do you not understand? I asked YOU a question. I asked you to explain it to me! I never once made any claim whatsover with the above scripture. NONE.All I asked is for you to explain it to me. What challenge???? All I did was join this debate by asking a question! You asked Peg this question, not me.God made Moses like god. You finally, in between all your assumptions and rudeness, stated he will "appear" as god.Well, what does that mean then? I'd be more than happy to address this if you could actually answer my question in detail. Wow. Another example of you saying I said something when I did nothing of the sort. I said, every verse in the gospels is flimsy EXCEPT that one. I did not say it was a clear cut example. Without the proper context, it appears to state Jesus is god. Peg covered this quite well. Jesus never calls himself "I am". Not once. Feel free to present said scripture. Son of god, son of man do not imply Jesus is god. Yes, they wanted to kill him, not for calling himself any of those names. So you're wrong on both accounts. Feel free again to present scripture that they wanted to kill him for calling himself for those reasons. You've jumped to conclusions once again. I reject all three that he was killed for those reasons. I also reject that all three means he was calling himself god. God gave Jesus the power to forgive sins. The power ultimately is still god.If I said a General can only give order to move against X and a Sergeant gives the order from the General, both actually gave the order. BUT...its the General who is ultimately in charge. ONLY the General can give the order, but he can give the power to another to pass the order along. Same applies for Jesus. God gave him the power (which the Bible clearly states over and over). Amazing, the answer is right in front of you and you ignore it. Regarding John 5:18: Did Jesus call himself god? No. Did the Jews accuse Jesus of being god? No. What did they accuse him of?Being equal to god. They did NOT accuse him of being god! What does Jesus say in response??? Not that he is god, but god GAVE him the power!This is another clear cut example of Trinitarians taking scripture, not understanding it, going in another direction, when the answer states the oppposite! Wrong. You STILL refuse to actually address the issue. The blind man, states "I am". Yet you admit he is not addresing himself as god. Yet when Jesus states "I am" apparently it MUST be god he is calling himself. Let alone the fact it makes no sense in light of the question."Before Abraham, god". How does this make any sense. If "I am" is the name of god, then that it the exact response Jesus made. Its a loaded question. Lets assume that no angel or man is equal to Christ. What exactly does that prove? Where did I ever state someone was equal to Jesus? No he doesnt.And for the fifth time (wonder why you keep ignoring this question, why didnt the High Priest and Council, the witnesses and the false witnesses accuse Jesus of being god?What did they accuse him of?

I believe you asked Peg that. You are making excuses. You're saying its MORE important that they condemned Jesus for claiming to be the son of god, then god himself?????? Thats absurd! We are all sons of god. They were looking for an excuse to condemn him! All that had to do was claim that he called himself god. Yet no one did. Not the High Priest. Not the council. Not those who witnessed Jesus preaching. Not the false witnesses.Why? Easy. Jesus never claimed to be god. Not once. They didnt stone him for saying "I am", as much as you want to twist scripture.It makes no sense that Jesus stated "Before Abraham, god". Absolutely no sense at all. It makes perfect sense for Jesus to claim before Abraham, he existed. Neither has anything to do with Jesus. Context. Unless you want to throw out the usual "dual meaning", the safety net when context rears its ugly head.

I also asked why the blind man is not god since he also claimed "I am"? You are adamant that since Jesus in John 8, said "I am", it MUST refer back to Exodus. You refuse to accept any other possibility. This is a perfect example of context. I am (no,I'm not calling myself god) in disbelief. There are hundreds upon hundreds of uses of "I am" throughout the Bible! By hundreds of speakers. Its how one talks when referencing themself! "I am" the first and last does not mean the "I am" is god, its god describing himself. I cannot really believe you just stated this.Before Abraham, god". How does this make any sense. If "I am" is the name of god, then that it the exact response Jesus made. So you admit, its another way of saying god. So then, yes-I am means god. Which again makes no sense. God calls himself I AM in Exodus. Therefore, god =I AM.So it would read, "Before Abraham, god".Have you also noticed the earliest translations have it in lower case? Apparently they didnt believe it refered to god either.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------God made Moses like god. You finally, in between all your assumptions and rudeness, stated he will "appear" as god.
Well, what does that mean then? I'm not sure what you are claiming. God clearly calls Moses god. You admit he is "like" god. So you're not actually addressing the question.Why? What makes Moses like god?-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------So now its six times I have asked the same question...each time ignoring it.Why didnt the High Priest, the Council, the witnesses and the false witnesses claim that Jesus called himself god?What are you afraid of Ema? Six times I have asked you. Is this how you conduct yourself when debating? Are you being honest here?

heritic writes:
I am (no,I'm not calling myself god) in disbelief. There are hundreds upon hundreds of uses of "I am" throughout the Bible! By hundreds of speakers. Its how one talks when referencing themself! "I am" the first and last does not mean the "I am" is god, its god describing himself. I cannot really believe you just stated this.
Before Abraham, god". How does this make any sense. If "I am" is the name of god, then that it the exact response Jesus made. I have no idea how Peg or anyone else for that matter has the patience to deal with you. You're all over the place.We were discussing "I AM". You the made the claim I AM is in other places to show Jesus is god. I asked you to show me.You then proceeded to throw in I AM THE FIRST AND LAST. How did I dodge anything? I addressed it. Ignorant? I have correct you ever step of the way. Most of the time you refuse to answer questions and most other times you throw around answers which have nothing to do with the question. I AM THE FIRST AND LAST has nothing to do with I AM. Nothing. This is a perfect example. I know all this. I have NEVER claimed otherwise. Its a title for god.Every time you throw out an insult, you have been proven wrong. Do I really need to go post by post to show this? I asked one question earlier WHY MOSES WAS CALLED GOD..and you threw out a ton of responses, scripture...which NEVER addressed the question. You made assumptions and created strawman arguments which never dealt with the issue. Wrong. First, you have no evidence that the Jews believed Jesus called himself god. I have already shown that the High Council, the High priest, the witnesses and the false witnesses NEVER accused him of this when they had th opportunity. This is exactly why you ignored this question SIX times!!!! Which is ANOTHER way of calling the name of god!14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [b] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "Who is I AM??????? God. I cannot believe you are arguing this point. I AM is another name for god! Holy geez. YOU claimed Jesus was calling himself god in John 8. Why? Bc of I AM. Then when I point out its another name for god, you argue with me that it isnt. No, John 8 does not read "god". But its YOU who claims it refers back to god, bc I AM is god.How utterly confused are you? Are you that adamant about winning a debate you'll throw out anything? LMAO! I AM is god!I can go to any Christian site who believes Jesus is god, and they all state I AM is god!You are so confused with your own arguments you contradict yourself.Before Abraham, I am.You want this to mean Jesus claiming to be god. Why? Bc I AM is the name of god.So I show you, it makes no sense to claim Before Abraham, god.You then turn around and claim I AM isnt the name of god.Wow. You still cannot even answer the question! You throw around insults yet avoid every question that would contradict your point. You have yet to show any evidence against my claims. Repeating something over and over does not make it true.I came back on this thread, with one question regarding Moses, we are now how many posts later...and you STILL have not answered it. No you havent answered it as asked. You've assumed why I was asking the question, then built your responses around what you thought I was trying to imply.I'll make it simpler for you.Did Moses gain any special abilities from god? Yes or no? Show me the post where you answered this. MOCK trial???? It was this very sincere trial which paved the path for eveything else! Now you're lying.The trial clearly stated they were looking for a reason to condemn him. No greater excuse to find fault with him then for them to state Jesus claimed to be god. Yet they NEVER brought this up. They even had to bring in false witnesses! LMAO! You throw around insults, yet your very comments make you look the fool. No, they're not the same. Not even close. Heck, your very own words contradict each other. First you claim they're the exact, then you state they're similiar. Similiar does not mean exact.In the Tanach it reads: ego eimi ho ohn (I am the being). In John 8:58 ,absent the words ho ohn (=the Being). Are you serious? Here is a trail, one where Jesus is brought before everyone, to be accused of his crimes. No greater crime exists than to claim one is god. Yet with everyone there, NO ONE brings up the fact, that Jesus is running around claiming to be god? This is a HUGE point. All one had to do was bring up one instance, just one. No one ever did. As for the difference between claiming to be god and claiming to be equal with god..the mere fact you do not understand the difference shows everyone how naive you truly are concering this debate.To claim one IS god...means they are one and the same. To claim one is equal to god, means he is NOT god...but equal to his power. Even more remarkable is the fact that Jesus stated over and over he is NOT equal to god! Didnt Peg and I cover this a few times. Christ never calls himself the first and last. You mean the fact Jesus never calls himself god? That Jesus claims he is not all knowing? Not all powerful? That Jesus has a beginning? That he is a man, the messenger sent by god? That his words are not his own? That he prays? That he cries for god to save him? That in heaven, a spirit, he calls the Father god?Yeah, there isnt any evidence that Jesus is not god. I guess I could start believing Jesus is god based upon a few verses out of context and mistranslated.Peg and I have had some indepth debates, yet neither of us ever insulted the other. No matter how frustrating.If you wish to continue, lose the child like behavior. Act like an adult. This is suppose to be a friendly debate, perhaps heated, but it does not have to fall apart bc you cannot stop with the insults.

Damn, I need a job where I can sit down and respond in length, with the time needed. I have a few minutes here and there after work (before kids, shower, kids, dinner, kids, tv, bed. Your posts are too long! LOL!No, Im not a JW, I'm an atheist. Wow. You're really reaching here. Heck, Jesus doesnt even admit they're his wings. Both clearly lay out that Jesus is not god. First, it states Jesus was born. Second, notice it states god and father OF our lord Jesus Christ. Which implies Jesus has a god. Sure I do. Its a major issue. Nowhere in the Bible does it claim Jesus is god. No one denies god dwells in Jesus. But nothing you've stated shows god is a man. Nothing. Jesus states over and over his powers are not his own, his message is not his own, his words are not his own, that he can do nothing except through gods power. Yes, Jesus IS an tiem of gods creation. Which again proves Jesus is not god. Which means he was created.It makes no sense that Jesus stated "Before Abraham, god". Absolutely no sense at all. It makes perfect sense for Jesus to claim before Abraham, he existed. Ok. Ok.But Jesus never calls himself what is stated in the OT.In the Tanach it reads: ego eimi ho ohn (I am the being). In John 8:58 ,absent the words ho ohn (=the Being).Also, the earliest translations have it lower case. Obviously they didnt believe Jesus was implying he was god either. First, its a past event. The problem is that Christian use their Bibles instead of the Jewish translation.There is a huge difference if one goes to Jewish sites and reads what the Tanach states. The tense changes if one reads from the Tanach to the KJV.Term
#
Pronunciation
Root
Reference
Jewish14
nee-TANIsaiah 9:5[6]
KJV has been given
TANACH is givenIsaiah 35:2
has been given
shall be givenLeviticus 19:20
had been given
[was ] givenNumbers 26:62
was given
was givenJoshua 24:33
was given
was givenJeremiah 13:20
was given
was givenJeremiah 51:55
was uttered
is utteredEzekiel 15:4
were given
is castEzekiel 16:34
was given
is givenEzekiel 32:25
was given
is putEcclesiastes 10:6
was set
is setEsther 4:8
was given
was givenEsther 6:8
[was] placed
is set2 Chronicles 34:16
was given
was committedOnly by using dual meanings and mistranslations can you make it refer to Jesus. Now let me ask you this:Moses is called god.
Gabriel also means "Strong God".
Ezekiel means "Strong God".
Elzaphan means "God is Protector"
Eliakim means "God raises".
Elisha means "God is Salvation".
HAZAEL means "God sees"Are these all god?These are just a FEW names of many that one could say refers to god. Jesus is NEVER called the Father at all in the NT. In fact, he is the SON of god. Jesus makes it quite clear that he has a Father, god. This alone should tell you its not about Jesus. Nope. This is what I meant about context. Read chapter 9. Read chapter 10. Its about Hezekiah. Christians have a habit regarding prophecy to focus on one or two verses, never the surrounding verses and the context.Chapter 9, focus on the words, yoke, burden, Midian, rod and staff. You'll notice they mirror Chapter 10. Why? Its one story.Also, as Chapter 10 ends:
20 In that day the remnant of Israel,
the survivors of the house of Jacob,
will no longer rely on him
who struck them down
but will truly rely on the LORD,
the Holy One of Israel.
21 A remnant will return, [b] a remnant of Jacob
will return to the Mighty God.22 Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand by the sea,
only a remnant will return.
Destruction has been decreed,
overwhelming and righteous.23 The Lord, the LORD Almighty, will carry out
the destruction decreed upon the whole land.24 Therefore, this is what the Lord, the LORD Almighty, says:
"O my people who live in Zion,
do not be afraid of the Assyrians,
who beat you with a rod
and lift up a club against you, as Egypt did.25 Very soon my anger against you will end
and my wrath will be directed to their destruction."26 The LORD Almighty will lash them with a whip,
as when he struck down Midian at the rock of Oreb;
and he will raise his staff over the waters,
as he did in Egypt.A time frame is given. Time of the Assyrians. Now take a look at 2nd Chronicles, Chapter 30. It refers back to Isa 9.

Jay,Your claim is that Jesus is god. You've tried to use scripture refering to the "son of man". You've gone back to the OT to try to tie Jesus to being god.You missed three very important scriptures though in reference to god being a man.I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not a man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city. [Hosea 11:9]God clearly states he is not a man.God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the Son of Man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? [Numbers 23:19]Not only is god not a man, but he is not even the son of man!1 Samuel 15:29 states:And also the Glory of Israel will not lie nor repent; for He is not a man(lo adam), that He should repent.’God has made it quite clear, he does not change. God also has made it quite clear, he is not a man.

Your claim is that Jesus is god. You're being silly. You claim this. From your interpretation of scripture. The Bible never states Jesus is god. Poor example. Nothing in Isa states Jesus is god. In fact, I have already shown you its not about Jesus. It clearly states this if you read chapter 10. Even more so, simple logic. Jesus is NEVER called the "Father". He is the son.
============================================You've tried to use scripture refering to the "son of man". You've gone back to the OT to try to tie Jesus to being god. Bible never states this. I deleted to save time most of your example of mingling with oil and flour. It really is an awful example. You seem to provide quite a bit of examples from other authors...which lack any evidence from scripture.Oil and flour are two seperate items combined. Your belief is that Jesus IS god. You have 100% god in heaven, with 100% god walking the earth, calling them the same.Do not use symbolism. Use evidence. Your lack of evidence is why you keep resorting to silly comparisons. Symbols can have many interpretations. Stick with the facts.==============================================You missed three very important scriptures though in reference to god being a man.
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not a man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city. [Hosea 11:9]Think for a moment. God does not change. Nor does god lie. Correct? So now you're stating god tells his chose people he is not a man....then appears as one later? Please provide scripture. For if you are correct, you have a serious problem. God flat out lied. Sure it is. God does not change. To state god tells his chosen people that that he is not a man is a huge problem if he decided later on that he would become one. God knows the future, does he not?==============================================God clearly states he is not a man.
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the Son of Man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? [Numbers 23:19]Jay, you're all over the place. We are discussing the OT scrpiture, not the NT. You're ignoring what the OT states by reverting back to the NT.God is NOT a man. Three different places this is stated. He also states he is NOT the son of man.
============================================= You're ignoring my previous post. Its about Hezekiah. Chapter 10 explains chapter 9. Did you even bother to read them? I also gave a list of names in the Bible that one could easily state are also god...in which they are not. I also pointed out Jesus is not the father, he makes the crystal clear. So now you're ignoring the NT scripture. Jesus is the son. He has a father. He states god is the father.
===========================================1 Samuel 15:29 states:
And also the Glory of Israel will not lie nor repent; for He is not a man(lo adam), that He should repent.’ Nope. God does not change. You're making god out to be a liar. You're suggesting an all knowing god, who knows the future, tells his chose people he is not a man, bc man lies...and then later on becomes a man.
============================================== Yes it did. But time is immaterial to god. He states he is not a man, bc man lies. Nor is he the son of man. Is your god a liar? I have ignored nothing. I went into explicit detail at how its not about Jesus. In fact, I pointed out if you read chapter 10, which refers back to chapter 9, it gives you the time frame of the child-the time of the Assyrians.