Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 83 (8942 total)
27 online now:
Faith, LamarkNewAge, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), Percy (Admin) (4 members, 23 visitors)
Newest Member: John Sullivan
Post Volume: Total: 863,719 Year: 18,755/19,786 Month: 1,175/1,705 Week: 427/518 Day: 45/58 Hour: 0/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Richard Dawkins vs The Pope
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 31 of 47 (555589)
04-14-2010 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Hyroglyphx
04-14-2010 7:07 AM


Re: A Determinative Question at the Very Root of Morality Itself
Hi Hyro,

I think you are going too far here;

I want to vomit when I see all the gold in the Vatican, when I see how it operates more like a corporation than a community, etc. But Dawkins takes it to another level where all religion is unilaterally attacked.

Has Dawkins called for any other religious leaders to be arrested? Or just the one who has personally aided and abetted paedophiles within the ranks of his church?

But are they protesting pedophilia in general or priests who perform pedophilia?

I can only speak for myself, but what really appals me is that the Vatican has actively covered up for the paedophiles within its ranks. They have shuffled paedophiles away to new parishes. They have sent them to vulnerable communities such as those in remote parts of Alaska. There, they have offended again. Add to that the fact that they simultaneously claim ultimate moral authority.

What could be worse than raping children?

Covering up for the rapist.

At least we can have some inkling of understanding about what motivates the paedophile to commit such appalling crimes. He is fucking sick in the head. Now that's not an excuse, but at least it is an understandable motivation.

What is the reason for the cover up? Protecting their asses. These people are not sick. They are just evil. That, in my opinion, is inexcusable.

Mutate and Survive


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-14-2010 7:07 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by hooah212002, posted 04-14-2010 12:37 PM Granny Magda has responded
 Message 36 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-14-2010 1:27 PM Granny Magda has responded

    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 110 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 32 of 47 (555600)
04-14-2010 12:35 PM


"I was forced to masturbate him in his room on the second floor. A foster child doesn't dare to say no in such a situation," the man, whose name was not given, told daily Dagens Nyheter (DN).

Source

Damn you Richard Dawkins!!!!!! How dare you use your name to attempt to bring these wonderful men to justice. If you just shut the hell up, the smoke screen will blow over and we can forget about this.

/s (as if it's necessary)

I still ask the question to those who think Dawkins (His Lordness in High Command for you Creo's) is only doing this as a sort of political ploy: who else is doing a fucking thing besides talking about it? It only appears to be a "ploy" because he HAS a name and people undoubtedly hear about it because he IS famous.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 110 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 33 of 47 (555601)
04-14-2010 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Granny Magda
04-14-2010 10:21 AM


Re: A Determinative Question at the Very Root of Morality Itself
These people are not sick. They are just evil.

No. Fags, are evil. These men are cursed by fags and the homosexuality. The devil made them do it.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Granny Magda, posted 04-14-2010 10:21 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Granny Magda, posted 04-14-2010 8:57 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 8097
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 34 of 47 (555603)
04-14-2010 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Hyroglyphx
04-13-2010 7:43 PM


Re: Effective or ineffective
The problem is his tendency to equivocate. The priests did this, therefore, the Catholic Church is bad. The Catholic Church is Christian, which therefore makes Christianity bad. Christianity believes in God which makes God bad. People that believe in God are therefore bad.

As with many crimes in our society, the cover-up is usually more damning than the actual crime. In this case we see the church applying pressure to its followers using religious authority. We see religious belief clouding peoples judgements.

As an atheist I am more than willing to say that religious people are just as flawed as atheists. I don't view christianity as bad because there are christians who are pedophiles. What I view as bad is the use of threats/pressure from higher ups under the guise of religion. Something to the effect of, "You will ruin the church if you reveal these secrets, and God might not look kindly on this." Or, "If you make the church look bad just imagine all of those souls that will be lost."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-13-2010 7:43 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 35 of 47 (555607)
04-14-2010 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Taz
04-14-2010 8:33 AM


Re: A Determinative Question at the Very Root of Morality Itself
I keep hearing this sort of thing from you. From what I have read and heard from the guy, I don't think he's attacking religion at all.

Maybe you're too far in the woods to see the trees or maybe you're a fish and can't see the water you swim in. Many people, even amongst his peers, seem to agree that his method of delivery does more harm than good.

Or are you using the fallacy of the middle ground?

If I was taking the middle ground I wouldn't be criticizing him, now would I?

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Taz, posted 04-14-2010 8:33 AM Taz has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 36 of 47 (555609)
04-14-2010 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Granny Magda
04-14-2010 10:21 AM


Re: A Determinative Question at the Very Root of Morality Itself
Has Dawkins called for any other religious leaders to be arrested? Or just the one who has personally aided and abetted paedophiles within the ranks of his church?

I'm speaking in generalities here. His staunch aversion towards anything religious is well documented.

I can only speak for myself, but what really appals me is that the Vatican has actively covered up for the paedophiles within its ranks.

I agree that these people should be arrested and I agree that they should be held accountable. I was just commenting that Dawkins' choice of coverage is indicative of his hatred for all things religious.

What is the reason for the cover up? Protecting their asses. These people are not sick. They are just evil. That, in my opinion, is inexcusable.

I agree 100%. Lock them up, seek a resolution that they cannot have immunity for raping kids. Throw the book at them.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Granny Magda, posted 04-14-2010 10:21 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Granny Magda, posted 04-14-2010 1:39 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 38 by onifre, posted 04-14-2010 1:45 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 37 of 47 (555610)
04-14-2010 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Hyroglyphx
04-14-2010 1:27 PM


Re: A Determinative Question at the Very Root of Morality Itself
I'm speaking in generalities here. His staunch aversion towards anything religious is well documented.

That doesn't mean that he shouldn't express his opinion when asked it. Remember, Dawkins has not particularly sought this out. He was asked to support it. He was asked his opinion by a journalist. He gave his opinion. I fail to see what he has done wrong.

Many people agree with you that Dawkins is too strident in his general views and demeanour. Now I don't agree with this. He is speaking his mind and saying it as he sees it. There is room for a plurality of opinion here. If you want to argue that he is doing more harm than good, you are entitled to your view, but it's just that; a view. There is no way for us to objectively determine what effect Dawkins rhetoric has. Others see Dawkins' approach as being spot on. It's a matter of personal preference and I don't see why the preferences of others should stop Dawkins or anyone else from voicing their opinions.

I agree that these people should be arrested and I agree that they should be held accountable.

Well then you agree with Dawkins. You appear to be criticising him for agreeing with you.

I was just commenting that Dawkins' choice of coverage is indicative of his hatred for all things religious.

What do you mean "choice of coverage"? Dawkins was asked his opinion. He's not forcing it down anybody's throat.

Mutate and Survive


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-14-2010 1:27 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by dronestar, posted 04-14-2010 4:28 PM Granny Magda has acknowledged this reply

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 38 of 47 (555611)
04-14-2010 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Hyroglyphx
04-14-2010 1:27 PM


Re: A Determinative Question at the Very Root of Morality Itself
His staunch aversion towards anything religious is well documented.

I don't get that from listening to him. To me his point is that indoctrination of any kind, even into atheism, is wrong and abusive when done to a child.

I was just commenting that Dawkins' choice of coverage is indicative of his hatred for all things religious.

I think Dawkins' arguments and position against indoctirination (in this case religious indoctrination) is a bit more detailed and eloquent than, "I just hate 'em." He's against the things we should all be against, that being the manipulation of innocent minds.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-14-2010 1:27 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
dronestar
Member (Idle past 628 days)
Posts: 1379
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 39 of 47 (555634)
04-14-2010 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Granny Magda
04-14-2010 1:39 PM


Re: A Determinative Question at the Very Root of Morality Itself
You appear to be criticising him for agreeing with you.

If I only had a nickel everytime Hyro harshly agreed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Granny Magda, posted 04-14-2010 1:39 PM Granny Magda has acknowledged this reply

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 40 of 47 (555673)
04-14-2010 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by hooah212002
04-14-2010 12:37 PM


Re: A Determinative Question at the Very Root of Morality Itself
Hi hooah,

No. Fags, are evil. These men are cursed by fags and the homosexuality. The devil made them do it.

Oh no. Hadn't you heard? It's a Zionist conspiracy.

quote:
A retired Italian bishop has provoked fury by reportedly suggesting that “Zionists” are behind the current storm of accusations over clerical sex abuse shaking the Vatican and the Catholic Church.

Monsignor Giacomo Babini, the Bishop Emeritus of Grossetto, was quoted by the Italian Roman Catholic website Pontifex as saying he believed a “Zionist attack” was behind the criticism of the Pope, given that it was “powerful and refined” in nature.

Bishop Babini denied he had made any anti-Semitic remarks. He was backed by the Italian Bishops Conference (CEI), which issued a declaration by Bishop Babini in which he said: “Statements I have never made about our Jewish brothers have been attributed to me.”

However, Bruno Volpe, who interviewed Monsignor Babini for Pontifex, confirmed that the bishop had made the statement, which was reported widely in the Italian press today. Pontifex threatened to release the audio tape of the interview as proof.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/...ent/faith/article7095471.ece

Perhaps they used their magic Jew powers to force all those poor priests to molest children.

Mutate and Survive


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by hooah212002, posted 04-14-2010 12:37 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by hooah212002, posted 04-14-2010 9:33 PM Granny Magda has acknowledged this reply

    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 110 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 41 of 47 (555677)
04-14-2010 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Granny Magda
04-14-2010 8:57 PM


Re: A Determinative Question at the Very Root of Morality Itself
GM writes:

quote:
A retired Italian bishop

I'm sorry, given the subject matter, I first read "retard Italian Bishop". I had to do a double take to see if what you wrote was satire lol.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Granny Magda, posted 04-14-2010 8:57 PM Granny Magda has acknowledged this reply

    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 110 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 42 of 47 (555759)
04-15-2010 9:37 AM


Dawkins on CNN
1: So now he's just "a British Athiest"? He's not a scientist or an author any more?

2: Is she REALLY so stupid as to not understand "how this is a crime against humanity" or "how it is unethical"? Is she fucking stupid?

Enjoy!

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Taz, posted 04-15-2010 4:38 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 711 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 43 of 47 (555764)
04-15-2010 10:13 AM


This is probably one area that I actually agree with Dawkins, for the most part....now hooah, what I'm about to say next in no way means I defend his "holiness" and I use that term loosely. I'm not catholic and have always been astounded at what this church is allowed to get away with, throughout history.....BUT, you (the prosecutor I should say) still has to build a case against the Pope himself in this thing. If that can be done, so be it, I'm all for it....if it can't (and it will be difficult given the nature of the case) what's the point in arresting him?

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by hooah212002, posted 04-15-2010 10:51 AM Flyer75 has not yet responded

    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 110 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 44 of 47 (555775)
04-15-2010 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Flyer75
04-15-2010 10:13 AM


Is he (the pope) or his he not, directly responsible for the shuffling around of the priests? Either in his position as pope, or when he was cardinal ratzinger?

I doubt Hitchens or Dawkins are dumb enough to arbitrarily say "fuck it, let's just "blame" the pope." without solid reason. They are scientific people, after all, where evidence is key. I haven't yet read the official testimonies/documents implicating the pope, or what have you, I don't think it's necessary. I also feel as though the whole fucking catholic church should be disorganized. The ONLY positive thing they have done is accept evolution.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Flyer75, posted 04-15-2010 10:13 AM Flyer75 has not yet responded

    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 110 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 45 of 47 (555777)
04-15-2010 10:55 AM


When you see an old man in tears for something that happened years ago, you have a problem.

This needs to be STOPPED!


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


    
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019