Is Jesus God?

Jesus claims that He is the First and the Last. "And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever ..." (Rev. 1:17) Compare this to what Jehovah God speaks in the Old Testament: "Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, and apart from Me there is no God." (Isa 44:6)You are in unbelief. I am in belief. "Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!

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Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:28,29) I am in belief. You are in unbelief. It is blessed to be in belief. And I also say of Jesus, "My Lord, and my God."That is all the time I have right now. I may get to your other comments latter today.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I understand the complaint of some that passages seemed more aimed at Cyrus, or Hezekiah, or Solomon, or David, or Zechariah, etc should not be applied to Jesus Christ.Critics with this reasoning cry "Dual Meaning" as a protest. However, ALL of the promises of God find their ultimate Yes and Amen in Jesus Christ.So Paul wrote: "For as many promises of God as there are, in Him [Christ] is the Yes; therefore also through Him is the Amen to God, ..." (2 Cor. 1:20) All of the positive promises of God find their ultimate fulfillment in the Son.This is why Jesus said that He was the greater temple, and the greater Jonah, and the greater Solomon. " ... behold something more than Jonah is here." (Matt. 12:41" ... behold, something more than Solomon is here." (Matt. 12:42)"But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here." (Matt. 12:6) Based on this priniciple, as good as Hezekiah may have been, Jesus is the greater Hezekiah. As great as Solomon may have been, Jesus is the greater Solomon. All that came before Jesus may have been more or less good. But none were perfect as the Son of God.So while I do acknowledge that some prophecies had an immedient referent that was prior to Jesus Christ, they were the imperfect referent. He is the ultimate AMEN to the promises of God.Look at Hezekiah for example. When it was time for him to die, he wept and requested a little longer to live. God was merciful and granted him 15 more years.Immediately after we have the record of his boasting to the Babylonians about his treasures which led to the downfall of Hezekiah's kingdom. His pride was exposed and became the undoing of his people.What was the good king's response ? It is telling. He said in essence "Well, as long as there is peace in my time, it is OK".So much for the Wondeful Counselor. He only cared about his own reputation in the end. He fell short. Jesus was the only Man absolute for the will of the Father. And Jesus completed that which Hezekiah lacked.You have to grasp this truth in the Bible, that ALL who went before the Son of God, though many times good, nonetheless fell short. None could qualify to be the Savior of mankind.Jesus is therefore the REAL Hezekiah who cared nothing for Himself in the end. He was totally absolute for the will of His Father.Probably, Hezekiah just should have died when God told him it was time to go. God probably knew that the wise king could not take any more temptation. His imperfection was thus exposed.But Jesus Christ, God incarnate is the greater Solomon, the greater David, the greater Hezekiah and the reality of all the positive promises of God in the OT.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Thankyou brother.I do not like to neglect to give credit where it is due. My main teacher is brother Witness Lee. And I am greatly enfluenced by Lee's footnotes and study notes of the Recovery Version Bible.The Holy Bible Recovery VersionThey are outstanding for study and I recommend them highly. And when you get his footnotes you are likewise often getting the cream of the ministry of others who have gone before him. He was very good at consolidating some of the best understandings of Bible teachers and incorporating their labors as study notes in this Recovery Version Bible.We thank the Lord for His light in these last days,
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Who else would you submit and why ? It is true that the Bible makes it crystal clear the there is distinction between the Father and the Son. For afterall, we see the Father sending the Son. We see the Son petitioning the Father, obeying the Father, doing the Father's work and will, speaking the Father's words, etc.But we also notice that when the Son comes the Father is not left but seems to come with the Son. We see the Father and the Son mutually indwelling one another. And we see the Son Who is given being called the Eternal Father in Isaiah 9:6.Jesus in John 14 confirms this. So this is quite mysterious that both are made "crystal clear".We are not asked to be able to explain God. We are commanded to believe in God.We are not asked to figure out the Holy Spirit. We are charged to Receive the Holy Spirit.Christ is called "the mystery of God" in Colossians2:2 - "That their hearts may be comforted, they being knit together in love and unto all the riches of the full assurance of understanding, unto the full knowledge of the mystery of God, Christ." This passage is full if subjective experience. Yet Christ is still the mystery of God. This passage speaks of comfort, knitting together in love, assurance, understanding and all kinds of subjective enjoyment. Yet that which is enjoyed is still "the mystery of God, Christ".I cannot explain to you the inner triune nature of God. This is too difficult for me to explain. And human pride often bulks because man in general does not want ANYTHING to remain a mystery.But Christ being a mystery does not mean that Christ cannot be experienced and enjoyed. The child and the Son is given the name Wonderful in Isaiah 9:6. Anything wonderful is not easy to explain.Though the child and the Son is Wonderful, - full of wonder, He is still "unto us" . Our inability to explain Him does not interfere with our ability to enjoy and experience Him. Our part is to believe and to receive.So I confess I cannot explain how Father and Son are distinct yet they are one another too. This is too Wonderful for me to explain. But I urge you not to let that bother you in the enjoyment of this God.Now if the Son is called Prince of Peace, He must be the Prince of Peace. If He is called the Wonderful Counselor, He must be the Wonderful Counselor. And if He is called the Mighty God it makes not sense to say that He is called that, but He is NOT that.And if the Son is called Eternal Father, it makes no sense to say He is called that but He is not that.So I agree with you that there are TWO - Father and Son. But I must be enlarged in scope and widened in appreciation of ALL that the Bible says. And it ALSO says that the Son is the Eternal Father.It is not commanded that I be able to explain this mystery. It is commanded that I believe the word of God. So say "Amen, the Son is also the Eternal Father just as He is called."Can you believe this and also embrace those passages which show Son praying to Father, sent by Father, ascending to the Father, doing the Father's will, petitioning the Father, etc?I have learned to believe both aspects. He is "Wonderful". Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I read and quite enjoyed Isaiah 10. But it doesn't matter to Jesus being the Mighty God born as a child. The entire Bible is the larger and more important context.In the larger context of the whole Bible, Hezekiah came short of fulfilling this prophecy and the more perfect recipient is Christ. He is the greater Hezekiah. The larger context is all of human history. And Christ is that child born who is the Jehovah the Mighty God. And He is that Son given Who is the Eternal Father.After His resurrection Jesus went through many Scriptures with the disciples to show that they were talking about Him. I have no doubt you would begin from Moses and all the prophets and argue that they were not talking about Jesus Christ at all. For this is what you are doing with Isaiah 9:6.You would probably see nothing of His death being fortold. You would probably see nothing of His resurrection being foretold. But Jesus illuminated wisdom on all the prophets ... "from all the prophets" demonstrating that He was being refered to.I can hear you arguing "No. No. That is about Hezekiah. That is about Solomon. No that is only about Joseph. Look at the context." etc. etc.But Jesus opened their minds to see that He is the AMEN to all the promises of God in the OT: Though, we do not have a record of all the passages that Jesus expounded "beginning from Moses and from all the prophets" and from the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms, I would bet that Isaiah 9:6 was one of the prophecies He spoke of. You are ignoring the larger context of the whole divine revelation of the Bible.Hezekiah was simply not that pleasing to God. Where he fell short Jesus the Son of God did not.The same could be said of Moses, Aaron, David, and Solomon and every other Old Testament figure. The beloved Son is the one who finally the Father had His full delight.A greater one then Hezekiah is here in Jesus Christ. I found the reasoning weak.None of those figures did the Holy Spirit reserve 27 books on.
Of the 66 books of the Bible 27 are dedicated to one Person, the Son of God. It is more than a matter of a name. It is that He acted in the reality of that name.David may have been called a "darling". But David, God's darling, also had a man murdered so that David could cover up his adultery with the man's wife and steal the man's wife.Now David was very good. But a greater than David is here in Jesus Christ. And the same is true with Hezekiah.These people were figures pointing the way to the Righteous One, the Son of God. The Old Testament is filled with types, shadows, and figures of Christ. And it is also filled with prophecies whose ultimate reference is Christ.You simply ignore that Jesus is unique in the whole Bible. He is in a class all His own. God did not allow Moses to enter into the Promised Land because of his disobedience.Christ is a greater one than Moses. Moses points the way to Christ. Gabriel is an angel. The mention of Gabriel is sparse in the Bible.
(One place does refer to "the man Gabriel"). Gabriel announces something concerning the birth of the Son of God.He is not nearly as prominent a figure in Scripture as Jesus Christ. Ezekiel has a book named after him. And he was shown many things. But in spite of such a good name, Ezekiel does not occupy as prominent place in the Scriptures as Jesus.There is no testament in whole dedicated to the prophet Ezekiel. Elisha is a type of Christ. Other Old Testament figure expressed some aspect which would be more clearly manifested in the Son of God. Elisha was definitely a pre-figure of the Son of God.I would have to review the other two persons. I am not sure what it is you think I am not aware of. Of course I know that the Hebrew names of many OT figures were splendid and exalted God.You have to pay more attention to which ones really LIVED UP to all that their names said. The mention of the names of those people are not as clearly and definitely prophetic as Isaiah 9:6. I disagree from the first verse in the chapter: "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me." (John 14:1)Jesus puts Himself on par with God in the first verse. As we are to believe into God we are also to believe into Him. Yes, but He and the Father as the Divine "WE" will come to make an abode with the lover of Jesus.This is incredible. In in the context of the whole chapter the coming of the Holy Spirit is the coming of the Divine WE of verse 23.Those with whom the Father and the Son have made an abode, through the Holy Spirit, can make absolutely no discernable difference between Them. So the term tri-une has become useful.God is Three - One. When the Holy Spirit came to us believers, the Father and the Son came in His coming. We sense no separation. God became real to me the moment I called upon the name of Jesus as my Lord. In the book of Zechariah, God sends God. And the Lord of hosts is both the Sender and the one sent.The Old Testament then hints of this mysterious nature of God. And we see the same thing in the interchangeable use of the title The Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah in a number of places in the Old Testament. I should hope so. It is blessed to be so wrapped. "Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord AND MY GOD!

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Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:28,29 my emphasis) A careful exposition of John 14 I will not write tonight. We can examine John 14 is greater detail another time. I did both. You are simply "slow of heart" to believe all that the prophets have said, very slow of heart. In fact your heart is desperate to go the opposite direction.You remind me of a young rabbi named Saul of Tarsus. But God had mercy on him and he went from persecutor to writing 13 of the 27 New Testament books.Paul said that when he was opposing the Christian church he was a blasphemer: Paul was a very strict Pharisee brought up under the instruction of Gamaliel (Acts 22:3) who was held in reputation among the teachers of the Law (Acts 5:34).Paul being a God fearing Pharisee would never commit blasphemy against Yahweh. For Paul to now confess that he was a blasphemer while he persecuted the Christian church is for him to indicate that he now believes that Jesus was God.Paul tells Timothy that his former persecution of Jesus included denying that Jesus was God and therefore commiting blasphemy.
I think that you also are in danger of commiting blasphemy by denying that Jesus Christ is God.Why did Jesus not rebuke Thomas when Thomas refered to him as "My Lord and my God" ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Isaiah 9:6 is about incarnation. A child is born. That is a human child. Yet this human child will be called the Mighty God. The Mighty God Jehovah is uncreated. How could a born child be called the uncreated Mighty God Jehovah ? It could only be by incarnation.Of course there are many instances of Old Testament persons whose names included "God." There are not many to whom an entire testament of 27 books is utilized to discribe them.The second line is that the son given will be called the Eternal Father. But if He is a given son how could He be the Eternal Father? It is only be incarnation of God as a man.The Eternal Father is Jehovah God of Israel: "But now, Jehovah, You are our Father ..." (Isaiah 64:8) "For You are our Father, Since Abraham does not know us, And Israel does not acknowledge us. You, Jehovah, are our Father; Our Redeemer from of old is Your name." (Isa. 63:16) That is true. But you should closely examine the lives of these other people and compare them to Jesus.Just one example of what to notice is instructive. God alone can forgive men their sins. Yet Jesus pronounced forgiveness of sins: "And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, Child, your sins are forgiven.

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But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, Why is this [man] speaking this way? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins except One, God ? " (Mark 2:5-7) I think you should read through the New Testament Gospels and pay close attention to what Jesus did. You should see that many things set Him apart from other OT saints who had "God" in their names. The accumulated evidence is that Jesus taught and acted as God become a man. I showed you where Thomas called Him God. I showed you where Jesus Himself so closely identifies Himself with the Father that to see Him is to see the Father.I do not think it is necessary to locate a NT passage specifying each particular title used in reference to Jesus. Anytime from then unto eternity will suffice for men coming around to realizing Who He is.The first name He is called in Isaiah 9:6 is Wonderful. This Hebrew word pehleh takes on these meanings: hard to understand,
unusual,
unheard of,
extraordinary,
beyond one's powers,
too difficult,
incomprehensible We see instructive use of the word pehleh in these passages: Genesis 18:14 - Is anything TOO HARD for the Lord?"

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Psalm 139:6 - "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."

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Judges 13:18 - "But the Angel of the Lord said to him, why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful?" Anything Wonderful is not easy to explain. It is full of wonder. It is wonderful that God could become a born child. That means that the Creator of the universe was a little baby in the womb of a woman for nine months. Incarnation is Pehleh - Wonderful.That the Son of the Father embodies, expresses, and manifests the Father in total harmony is also pehleh - Wonderful. Many good saints came and went in the Old Testament. None expressed God so fully as Christ. Jesus had to be a man to be able to die. Yet He had to be God to make the effectiveness of that death have eternal effect and significance.His miraculous birth, and sinless life, miracles, wisdom, signs, death in total obedience, and His victorious resurrection prove that He is God mingled with man .He says that if they destroy His body He Himself will raise it up in three days. Jehovah God kills and makes alive. And God alone is the Giver of life (1 Sam. 2:6; Deut.32:9) . He demonstrates divine authority throughout His minsistry. And His resurrection seals that He is Deity.Another way that Jesus claimed to be God was by his statement that all men should "honor the Son, even as they honor the Father" (John 5:23). In the same way in chapter 14 He says "You believe into God. Believe also into Me" (John 14:1) . The pretensions of this command to a monotheistic people is evident. The Jews know that no man should claim honor and belief with God.But Jesus did not simply make these claims. He had a life which backed up His extraordinary claims.Jesus also applied the messianic prophecies to Himself. He applied Psalm 110:1 to Himself as David's Lord in Matthew 22:43-44.In His trial He applied the messianic passage of Daniel 7:13 to Himself before the High Priest. You can imagine how infuriated they were. They imagined that His life was in their hands to instantly execute or pardon. And in such a threatening environment He says that from now on they will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of Heaven.Thier reaction - "Why do we still need witnesses? You have heard his blasphemy! .Furthermore the Old Testament forbade worship of anyone but God [b](Exodus 20:1-4; Deut. 5:6-9). Men were not to accept worship (Acts 14:15). And even angels refused to be worshipped (Rev.22:8,9). Jesus, however, received worship on at least nine occasions in the NT. I will not specify them in this post.Jesus not only accepted titles and worship due to Deity alone. Jesus placed His words on par with the words of God - "You have heard that it was said to men of old, ... But I say unto you ..." (Matt. 5:21,22). The formula is repeated a number of times placing the words of Jesus on par or even above the words of God in the OT.Jesus says that all authority in heaven and earth is given to Him after His resurrection. His actions displayed divine authority. His talk was not empty talk, but backed up with extraordinary deeds - signs and miracles.And in Revelation the resurrected Christ refers to Himself as the First and the Last. Jehovah God said He was the only God and the First and the Last in Isaiah 42:8. Jesus says precisely the same thing. It is up to us to believe or not.In the Old Testament Jehovah God is the light - "Jehovah is our light" (Psalm 27:1) In incarnation Jesus says "I am the light of the world." (John 8:12) .I could go on much more. These are examples that it was not merely a matter of a name. It was a matter of His life and deeds which manifested the reality of those names. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't know if and how Peg intends this verse to argue that Jesus is not God incarnate. It doesn't show that at all.It does show that John, in his Gospel, did not records Jesus calling His disciples brothers until after His resurrection. He did not refer the God being their Father until after His resurrection.The most intimate term that Jesus used to discribe His disciples before His resurrection was "friends" (John 15:13-14). He said that slave do not know what their master is doing. But He would inform His friends all things that He was doing. So before the death and resurrection of Jesus, He considered His discples as close as friends.After the resurrection He counts them brothers because is God's eyes all regenerated people were regenerated at the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He then became the Firstborn Son of God. He released the divine life that was concealed within the shell of His humanity. And He dispensed this divine life into His disciples, His "friends".On this side of resurrection, the Onlybegotten Son of God is now also the Firstborn Son of God with many brothers. His God is their God. His Father is also their Father. They also particate in the mingling of God and man.This matter is disclosed in John's Gospel more than in the synoptics. Matthew does have Jesus refering to God as the Father of the disciples even before His death and resurrection. John does not. I think it was a difference in what the two evangelists were wanting to emphasize. The time element of when the disciples became born again as children of God is not as important to Matthew's account.I have written this without extensive proof texts. They can be provided. Paul in Romans, John in his Gospel, and the book of Acts reveal that the resurrection of Jesus was a birth and not simply "coming back to life". He was born the Firstborn Son of God and all His believers were considered born with Him on that day.Peter writes that all the saved ones have been regenerated - born again, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. At that time Jesus could now say that His God was their God and His Father was also their Father. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I was careful to note that this matter of intimate terms, from "friends" to "brothers" is perculiar to the Gospel of John.The synoptics, I believe, do not follow this scheme. The passage you refer to is in the synoptics. And I pointed out that Matthew records Jesus speaking of "your Father" before the resurrection.This is not without some problems to me, because on the cross, in John's Gospel, Jesus did seem to bring His mother and the disciple John into a closer relationship. He told John and His mother to behold each other now as family members.But I do think John is attempting to highlight that in resurrection, Jesus entered into a more intimate relationship with His followers.In one or two of the synoptics Jesus implies that those who do the will of His Father are His kin. They form the supportive and sympathetic mother, brother and sister to Him.Those doing the will of His Father are the closest to Him.As for grammer, as long as I remember the rule "Don't use no double negatives" I'm happy.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You misunderstood my post.I never said that is was only after His resurrection that He refered to God as His Father.And your reference from the prayer He taught His disciples is in the synoptic Gospels which I stated did not show this characteristic of elevating His followers from friends to brothers unique to John's Gospel.

Yes he was. He was not one of the 12 original disciples. Paul's deception and obsession was not unlike yours. Except for the miracles you also desire to bring the disciples back to the Old Testament dispensation.That is why so many of your important verses are from the Old Testament. Like those on the nature of death and on the name Jehovah.We hope that you also will receive mercy to have your eyes opened to see Who Christ really is.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I can't see how EMA would disagree with any of this.What is noteworthy is that Paul said that as a persecutor of the Christian church he was a "blasphemer" (1 Timothy 1:13). Now as a strict Pharisee, Paul would never commit blasphemy against the Hebrew God. So by saying he was a "blasphemer" Paul means that he formerly denied that Jesus was God become a man.In short, Paul must have blasphemed God by denying that Jesus was God in his persecution of the Christians.It is evident that Paul regarded Jesus redemptive act as the shedding of God's blood. God could ONLY have human blood if God became a man. So by confessing that the church was redeemed with God's blood Paul acknowledges that Christ is God incarnate: "Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit has placed you as overseers to shepherd the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." (Acts 20:28) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

To clarify, I was finding it unlikely that you would disagree (according to Peg's inquiry), not mine.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

No, I expect you to believe in the Deity of Jesus. I am confusing responses possibly in how I am making comments.

Succintly, what is the Paul question ?I've lost track of it.

I was confessing that I was being lazy that night. No. Almost. But no.I think it is really all over for computer programming. I am trying to develop music teaching as a new career.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.