What constitutes matters of Brotherhood and Fellowship?

Of course they live here as well, they are human too, but when they die they will go to heaven. The rule hasnt changed, humans will continue to be born and live on earth as they always have done. if you look at vs 7-8 you'll see he's speaking about christians who recieve holy spirit only
7For God called us, not with allowance for uncleanness, but in connection with sanctification. 8So, then, the man that shows disregard is disregarding, not man, but God, who puts his holy spirit in YOUThose who are born again have recieved holy spirit and they are the ones that Jesus identified as entering the kingdom of God when he explained it to Nicodemus. The passage in Matthew is refering to the 'last days' and the people who live at that time. Any who remain defiant of God at that time will certainly not be saved and these are the ones who Jesus says will be cut off into everlasting destruction....but there are literally billions of people who have never had the opportunity to know God because they died before these last days.Those people are the ones who will be given another opportunity to come to know God and make an informed decision. They are the ones who will recieve a resurrection to life on earth again. "The hour is coming in which all those in memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgement"Thats right, his blood is for everyone...but that does not mean that everyone has to give up their life on earth to benefit from it.Paul also showed that there is a difference in the group of christs brothers and the rest of the world of mankind whom he calls 'the creation'. Notice in the following scripture that he specifically says that the creation is eagarly awaiting the revealing of the sons of God that they too may become children of God The apostles were Jesus chosen few who recieved Gods holy spirit. The total number of them according to revelation is 144,000 so no, its not only his 12 apostles. However, the number of chosen ones had to eventually amount to 144,00 so over the centuries there have always been chosen ones who would make up the 'bride' of christ. As a collective group they are the called the bride....but not all christians are part of this bride class. The memorial is celebrated every year on the date corresponding to Nisan 14...the anniversary of Christs death.The purpose is to commemorate his death, to remember the value of his sacrifice and what it achieved. During the evening we pass around the bread and wine, but only those who claim to be of the annointed will partake of those emblems and the rest of us are observers.We dont decide who partakes. The partakers make that decision themselves based on their annointing by holy spirit. I used to ask this question myself...how do they know they are annointed. One of the annointed told me that if you have to ask if you are annointed, then you are not annointed.Paul explains why this is the case in romans 8:16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.So they have an overwhelming sense that they are going to heaven. There is no doubt in their mind that they have been chosen because God puts the desire into their heart and it becomes their driving force. Back in the first century, the gathering of the 'firstfruits' was the goal so of course Pauls words could be taken to mean all christians at that time. But 144,000 is a very small number relative to the number of actual christians so we do not take his words to apply to everyone...only to those who are 'joint heirs with Christ'. Absolutely. Its imperative that we get it right because if we deliberately mislead Jesus sheep, then we will be held accountable.

Sorry double postEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

I agree, but at an earlier date you stated: So does he want humans in heaven, yes or No Us and You means someone different than those to which he is speaking???? Whaaaaa? You specifically said earlier that everyone will eventually be saved. How do you come out of everlasting punishment to be saved? Dont these verses just show what I and the rest of the Nt teaches that one is either in Christ or outside of Christ, depending on whether one has been saved or not? Do you see a distinction here between all members and a select few, I dontYou conclusions seem to be counterfactual to the words and imagery the NT gives for the Bride and the Chruch. You conclusions may only be valid, if one starts with the idea that 144,00o is to be taken literally in the first place.the rest of the scriptures do not support the idea that this number should be taken literallyconsider this fact. At an earlier date you inferred that Peter was one of the 144,000. Yet revelations says they are virgins. yet we know Peter was married. How could he be one of the 144,000 if this is a literal number and desigantion of people The division of the lay church and the one you are contending seems to be forced into the scriptures to the point that you are forced to make the following comment But its not just Pauls words in this passage that could be taken literally but nearly all his words concering the body of Christ and the bride of Christ. Consider the following passages: You cant be member of the body with out recieveing the Spirit."WE were ALL baptized into ONE BODY by ONE SPIRIT" Since there is only ONE body by one spirit, it would follow that the same Spirit was given to ALL members of the same body, which is the Church or the BrideThe distinction you are trying to make is not in scripture, in fact it says just the oppositeEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

simply put, no.However, due to mankinds need for redemption, his plan was to establish a kingdom to guide people back into unity with himself. Part of that plan includes taking a small group of mankind to help govern the people of the earth thru that process. These ones are a fixed number though, so there is not a continual flow of humans into the heavenly kingdom. the scripture is directed to those who God has 'put his holy spirit into'We know that this is a small number of christians, therefore Pauls words in this instance are directed to them. i just explained what i meant when i said "Any who remain defiant of God at that time (last days) will certainly NOT be saved and these are the ones who Jesus says will be cut off into everlasting destruction"'Everyone' who has ever lived before this time will be saved thru the resurrection. They will be given an opportunity to decide based on accurate knowledge of God. provided you acknowledge that there are only a small number of these ones called 'christs brothers' for revelation puts their number at 144,000. That number is much smaller then all the christians in the world today.But with regard to those who are saved, i think we have a different idea of that. We dont view anyone as 'saved' until that time arrives and the person has actually been saved. Salvation hasnt happened yet becuause it doesnt happen until Armageddon arrives.After armageddon we will see who has actually been saved. You may recall Jesus words at Matt 7:22 Here Jesus is speaking about christians...those who were performing powerful works in his name. So this is why i say that we really dont know who will be saved until after armageddon. Being a baptized christian is NOT a guarantee of salvation. It puts us in line for salvation but it certainly doesnt guarantee it. lol its funny how you look at one verse and deny that its literal but then another and claim that it is literal.Let me put it to you this way. If these 144,000 are not a literal number but the 'virgins' are literal....then you must be saying that only those who are virgins will be with Christ in heaven.Tell me why you think a specific number is given in revelation? the fact that some are going to rule as kings and priests with christ does not mean that the church should be divided into two groups. Lets not forget Jesus words
"and i have other sheep i also must bring and they will become one flock one shepherd"Dont make the same mistake that churchs have made. They beleive there is a distinction of two classes among jesus sheep... but Jesus did not see them as two classes. They are ONE flock under ONE shepherd. the other sheep are also a part of the members of christ...they just are not going to heaven. Its really not that complicated. You still need to explain why there are so many teachings of Jesus about living on earth in paradise.Also, you have to be able to explain what will come of the earth if there are no people living here because they've all gone to heaven. Dont forget that the scriptures show that Armageddon will be Gods war to end wickedness and take over rulership of the earth....if there are no people down here, whats the point?

Armageddon, thats funny PegIn a manner of speaking you are correct,but there is certainly the sense in the scriptures that we may know we are presently saved.heres why In 1 John he says "if we (Christians) walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin" That presently and I can know that presently There is not a specific number given in Revelations, it is a figurative number to represent a metaphor, meaning a great number or incalulable in nature.Let EMA demonstrate it to you. The number is figurative, the illustration of virgins is figurative, the whole thing is figurative in the passage, because it refers to the number of those that have recieved Christ through the centuries.Peg watch this, 144,000 is not a specifc number, 144,321 is a specific number. the fact that the number is rounded off to 144,000 should clue you in.the entire context should clue you into the fact that you are dealing with the figurative.Here are some illustrations from scripture.Samson slew 1000 philistines with the jawbone of an ass. Do you really think that only 1000 or even exacally 1000 philistines attacked Samson? Or do you think when he got to 998 that he said Ill stop at 1000, that s nice even number and Im tired anywho.Or would you say he killed a large number of those seaside dwellers and this is what the writer is trying to conveyChrist will reign 1000 years. Satan will be locked up 1000 yearsthe children wandered in the desert for forty years. Was it really exacally to the minute 40 years, when they were one minute in the desert, the in the promise landMoses was 40 years old when he left Egypt. Do you think Moses left Egypt on his birthdayYou get the idea, its figurativeThe 144,00 are those collectively (and figuratively) that have purified themselves in Christ through the centuries, they are represented as pure or virgins. They are virgins or pure because of Christ, not due to their actions or behaviorIf EAM, from across the Pond says Ill see you in a month and I show up in 26 days, did I lie because a month is 30 or 31 days? You would you understand me to mean around that time or time frame Possibly my friend Armageddon is simply a figurative war between good and evil, when God will with a simple thought bring into collection the forces of evil and restrain them as desribed in Revelations Your a riot sometimes Peg.Also, I was not aware that Bertrand Russell, (you keep saying Mr. Russell) was a Jehovahs Witness, I thought he was a hard line atheistIf its ok with you I would like to begin with Jaywills initial post in conjunction with yours concerning fellowship as we discuss these other issues.EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

You make a couple of comments that are of extreme interest to this discussion. You write: Do you mean by 'today' a time removed from the first century or am i missing a point here?You make a clear distinction between the local and universal church and say one should be out of the local but not the universal church. Am I correct in your implication?By OUT do you mean breaking fellowship with such a person or do you mean that person may be out of the graces of God for persisting in this error or any error concerning the scriptures.In short should a brother that insists and persists in teaching that is contrary to the Apostles teaching be excommunicated from the fellowship?What doctrinal teachings and principles besides Moral principles, would constitue such actions.or should we leave this to the local officials in the person of the Elders to decide these matters?My intentions here are not to be nit picky, but define perhaps when and how disfellowship becomes imparative

fair enough. Do these constitue matters of fellowship with other christians. that is would you fellowship with said individuals if they were a part of your group or not a part of your group, if they practiced such things.I suppose with yourself, i should ask, first, if you believe people outside, that are not JWs, are they christians in the first place.if not why not?besides ourselves, does God make these issues you present ,matters of fellowship for himself? Would you say he believes a persons persistence in these items constitues a wilfull and deliberate disobedience?these and other issues I am presenting and our views on those issues will start to narrow our views down from our different perspectives, I hopeEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

if individual baptized chirstians were practicing such things in the congregation they would be disfellowshiped, so no, i would not have fellowship with those baptized christians.However, there are instances where the congregation will continue to associate with such ones. In my situation my husband is not a christian, yet he and his family celebrate such occasions. As a wife i am obliged to attend such family occasions and this does not constitute a matter of disfellowship for me because my situation is different to a christian who chooses to celebrate such things. My elders know that I attend the christmas dinner, yet it is not a disfellowshipping offence in my circumstances.This is in harmony with the principle about a christian showing reasonablness as Paul advised at Philipians 4:5 "Let YOUR reasonableness become known to all men. The Lord is near."Basically the way Jw's view it is that in this situation my unbelieving mate is entitled to celebrate with his family and my attendence would be as an observer rather then a participant. It would also be wrong of me to demand that he stop soing something just because i dont do it. If it ever becomes his decision not to celebrate christmas then i will not be required to go to the family function anymore and i'll be a very happy lassy. yes of course we view them as christians. But there is a big difference between true christianity and false christianity. As soon as a christian begiins to deviate from what Christ commanded, they will be judged on those actions....not by any human of course, but by Jesus himself.Even Jesus said about some of his followers at Matt 7:21 "Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.According to Jesus words, even though some christians 'believe' they have fellowship with Jesus, they really didnt. This is why its so important that we get it right now....later will be too late. Absolutely.
Remember that Jesus told christians that they must worship God in 'spirit and truth'If we know something is untrue, such as Jesus born on dec 25/christmas, and we continue to make that untruth a part of our worship, then we will be held accountable for that.We really do have to understand and make informed decisions now becuase pleading ignorance later will not help us according to Jesus words in Matt 7. His words show that those christians 'believed' that they were worshiping correctly...but Jesus showed that they were not found approved and therefore not saved. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

herein lies the problem and the crux of our discussion. we have sevearal verses and we will discuss each one of them as time goes by (thats also the name of a british comedy) that concern themselves with fellowship.What Christ commanded and what is simply stated as a martter of fact at times can and is distinquished by individuals as different than that which is to be stricly adheard to in matters of fellowship.While you see a christmas tree as a pagan tradition, Paul seems to want to allow others to participate in ritual days and seasons and the such like and to not to make to many things a circumstance for disfellowship and disagreementSo your view of the scriptures and what is acceptable may be different for others. What you make a matter of fellowship may indeed not be for many othersIm not trying to water down the Word of God, but am trying to define exacally what the scriptures define as a definition for fellowship.As will be demonstrated, even the verse that deal with the 'Doctrine of Christ', etc and how and what they are refering to will be disagreed upon, which is normal but mabe we can make some sense from their context As an example, where are we told directly or indirectly or in principle not to celebrate Christs birth/Did not the Magi worship and celebrate Christs birth. Does not getting the right day really matter and should we make such a thing a matter of fellowship"And away we go" Jackie Gleasonit seems as though, right off the bat your method of determining what are matters of fellowship and how it is to be applied is faulty
no offense intended. The passage in matthew 7 is much like the one in 1 Cor 13, it has to do with the heart and not specific actions or doctrine.In judgement and in matt 7 and 1 Cor 13, God is simply saying your HEART was not in it and doctrine is of little use if your heart is not in the right place. these passages are probably not dealing with the correctness of doctrine specificallyhere is another one. if we misapply the method of what should be considered matters of fellowship and how they are to be applied. that is, if we make rules and guidelines where God did not make such rules have WE now become guilty of the very thingwe are trying to apply.Christ said to the Pharisses "You teach for doctrine the commandments of men"Sometimes we have been taught things so long that we believe they are actually doctrine, when in fact they are notas you can see this is not an easy topic."And away we go" Moving hands forward in a pointy motion while slidding body in the same direction.EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Thats very true. I wonder though if it is because many people simply dont know where some practices originate from. Do you find any account in the gospels of Jesus celebrating his birth? Or do you see any account in the bible, including the Hebrew scriptures, of any Jew celebrating their birthday?The answer to that question is no. The reason is because the only people who celebrated birthdays were pagan worshipers. The reason why they celebrated their birthday was because it was a religious ceremony and the purpose of it was to keep away evil spirits who were said to try and attack a person on the day of his birth. The cake, the candles, the presents and the party was a ceremony which kept those evil spirits away from the birthday celebrant.This is why the Jews never celebrated birthdays. They were not to participate in pagan practices or make pagan religious celebrations a part of their worship. So do you really think that Christ would have asked his followers to participate in that pagan practice?The Magi were in fact pagan astrologers and it wasnt christs birth they celebrated. They didnt see Jesus until jesus was an 'infant' probably around 2 yrs of age. Yes they gave Jesus gifts, but there was not actual celebration involved in that.Jesus told us to worship in 'spirit and truth' so yes, we should base our form of christianity on what we know to be true. We know that Jesus was not born on Dec 25, we know the bible does not state the date of his birth, we know that birthdays are pagan practices therefore to base our worship on 'truth' we would have to ensure that we do not adopt anything that we know to be untrue. this is true to some degree, but we also have to consider that our world has changed a hell of a lot since the bible was written and therefore there are going to be things in our world that are not directly mentioned in the bible. Sometimes we have to use 'principles' to make decisions about our worship and what is acceptable and what is not.One example would be blood transfusions. This is a huge point of contention for many people, i know. The bible specifically tells us that we must not 'eat' blood. But it doesnt say we must not 'inject' blood into our veins to save life. Jw's have taken the stand that we must not accept blood transfusions because the bibilical principle is that blood is considered sacred to God. It represents the individuals life...the life that God gave it. So we take that principle and apply it in our modern world. No, the bible doesnt say we must not use blood to save life, but the principle is that the life of the person from which the blood came belongs to God and we cannot rightly take that persons blood to use for any purpose because it belongs to God alone. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Could you provide a specific passage that says they were required to not celebrate birthdays You are mencing words here. You are sidestepping to avoid an obvious point. yes his birth was a part of the visit and yes there was an actual celebration. If they are Peg you are rationalizing your behavior and you should not participate in event he appearence of evilIf the giving of gifts is a pagan tradition and it can only be associated with that idea, Joseph and Mary and God were breaking their own lawsYou see the fallacy in this in your own life in your attempts to ATTEND a Christmas celebration or birthday, but pretend you are not participating. If these things are actually evil, then you should abstain, because the Apostle said,"avoid even the appearence of evil'The truth of the matter is that birthdays and Christmas are just like eating meat that was served to idols. It is the INTENT and PURPOSE of eating the meat. Are you eating it because you believe it helps you serve the god it was sacrificed to, or you eating it SIMPLY because you bought in the market place."Eat what is put before you asking no question for conscience sake"Likewise, am I celebrating someones birth in conjunction with worshipping a god or am I just celebrating the fact that THAT INDIVIDUAL came into the world in that DAY.Am I celebrating Christmas because it is some pagan gods birthday or am I celebrating like the Magi his wonderful entrance into the world.Funally Paul concludes, look if it is that big of deal, "I will eat no meat offered to idols, as long as the world stands, if it causes my brother to stumble"1 Cor 8 Not because its wrong but because it can become an occasion of offense to a weak brotherwe have a certain amount of liberty in Christ that we did not under the Old Law."Arise peter kill and eat, do not call unclean what God has made clean"In contrast however and to show complete objectivity, I dont think Christians should celebrate Halloween. Due to the fac that its sole purpose is to celebrate the dead, worship through the dead and celebrate evil spirits, human sacrifice and the such like.I can find no justification for its celebration, so many have changed it to a fall festival, with costumes, if that makes any senseMost of the time we do these things so our kids wont feel left outOn the other hand some of us cant win for losing. I have to repeadly and each halloween convince her I am not celebrating Halloween, because she continuoulsy keeps repeating will you please take off that mask. "Sweetie its not a mask"Some poor folk just cant win for losingEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

there is no specific passage stating that you must not celebrate birthdays. But if that is the way you determine what is acceptable to God, then you are going about things the wrong way. There is also no passage stating you should not celebrate a mardigras or halloween....but its pretty clear from knowing what Gods standards are that these celebrations would not be acceptable to him.You first should be looking at the particular celebration, where it originates, what was its purpose, why was it celebrated and then ask if it is in harmony with Gods standards and would he accept it.So with regard to birthdays, did God accept the mingling of pagan religions amongst the isrealites? What was his stand on Pagan religions and false worship? Matt 2:1-11 2 After Jesus had been born in Beth′le‧hem of Ju‧de′a in the days of Herod the king, look! astrologers from eastern parts came to Jerusalem, 2saying: Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance. ...11And when they went into the house they saw the young child with Mary its mother, and, falling down, they did obeisance to it. They also opened their treasures and presented it with gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh. You cant seriously tell me this was a birthday celebration. Birthdays were accompanied by music, dance, cake, candles, wishes.... this was a simple visit by 3 men who gave some gifts to the one they believed would be the next king of Isreal.lol and you say i'm mincing my words. C'mon, dont tell me you've never recieved a gift from anyone apart from at your birthday? Now dont do that... we are talking about 'birthday celebrations'... not gift giving. There is nothing wrong with gift giving. Jesus said we should give freely and be generous with all. But an actual birthday celebration is not about giving...its about recieving AND its a pagan religious ceremony, even if people dont view it that way today. LOL am i pretending not to celebrate??? Ok now you are being funny.I never said they were 'evil' I said they were based on a lie. Jesus was not born on Dec 25, the early christians never celebrated it because they already had a yearly celebration called the 'memorial'Its about keeping ones way of life in harmony with God and truth. I attend only out of respect for my hubby. If i didnt, then it could cause problems between myself and his family because they want to see him and their grandchildren. I certainly dont go there to secretly celebrate christmas. They all know that i dont celebrate so they dont buy me gifts, i dont buy them gifts and the gifts they give to our children they dont wrap in christmas paper because they understand that i dont celebrate christmas. Paul was not talking about christmas or birthdays in this passage.
Do you understand what the slaughterhouses were about in Pauls day?
All the meat at the slaughterhouses was first sacrificed to idols...then it was sold at the markets.This was an issue for some christians and paul was explaining that they could eat of such meat purchased without it affecting their conscience because they were not the ones sacrificing to idols or participating in the ceremony.the prinicple is that there is a difference between 'participating' in a practice and simply eating a piece of food. Bringing it closer to our own day, turkey is a traditional christmas day roast. Could I eat a turkey that a shop sells because it is christmas? Of course I could. To me its just a turkey. Im not eating it because its christmas....this is what paul was getting at.I agree that halloween is very obviously a satanic celebration and christians should not participate in it. I can imagine that it must be a very difficult thing for you as a parent to tackle considering halloween is such a widespread celebration in america. Im not sure i'd compromise with my kids, to them its just an opportunity to get dressed up and have some fun but to me, knowing what the celebration is really about, i'd have to say no. Luckily we dont have halloween in australia as a celebration so i dont have to worry about it.

That is the reason i asked for a specific verse regarding birthdays. And since there are numerous ways to celebrate birthdays, the broad categorical denunciation of all birthday celebrations is simply misguded.Mardigras and halloween are self explanatory for their purposes I agree, that is why he accepted the Magi's worship regarding his birthThen you should ask yourself, why am I buying and eating this meat. Is it because it was offered to idols or am I worshipping with it and eating it to worship the idol as well, NO. My purpose is different, mine is to provide food for myself and my family celebrating a birthday DOES NOT have to be associated with Pagan Gods and religions, or worship of the same, even if I am using some item that they once used You cant be serious by implying that you believe the word BIRTHDAY means, wishes, cakes, candles, etc. Peg, the word birthday means 'day of your birth'Yes, they, (the magi)in their own way were celebrating the DAY this king was BORN, whether it was 2 years later or on that very dayListen Peg, it is very hard for all of us to remove all of the things we use today that were once associated with Pagan Gods. Let me ask you, do you use the words Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, thursday, Friday, Saturnday, and SUNDAY. YOU DO REALIZE THESE CAME FROM PAGAN GOD WORSHIP , correct?Normally as with birthdays the intent and purpose is waht matters Simply put the magi's visit was both a visit to celebrate him as king and the day of his birth as a king. They did this with gifts and there is no indication God was dissatified with it Now thats a riot Peg. I wont mess with that one. You sound like Archie Bunker. The other day, when in a discussion with Meathead, he said"listen meathead, what the Supreme court has to say, has nothing to do with the law" As with most error today, it is executed with the best of intent. this is very admirable, even if misguided. Im sure the Lord does not hold this inconsistency against you, as neither do I make it a matter of fellowshipI will give you one thing, you do get down to the specifics, especially distinquishing between the gift and whether it is wrapped in chritsmas paper.What about bumping up against or accidently rubbing against the tree? No Im just kidding ofcourse. I hope you take that in the same way it was offered, in fun With regard to 1 Cor 8, I agree, he was talking about a principle. The principle simply is, that I am not applying the day of someones birth, with a Pagan God, I am not worshipping a Pagan Gods birthday, I am celebrating a childs birth, for that reason only, to which there seems to be no aversion or commandment, not to do so in scriptureWhy would the angel tell the sheperds that this day in bethlehem, to you a Savior is born, if he did not want them to celebrate that event? I couldnt agree more. However, be very careful that your involvement in practices, which you deem as Pagan and unacceptable to God are not compromised by rationalization and a desire to not offend your family and friends This gets really close to splitting hairs concerning Pagan practices and your aversion to them. So the turkey is there, what is the purpose for the turkey being there, (its to celebrate Christmas)and are you technically involved or associated with a practice in that instant, that your really should not be.Are you rationalizing your behavior, when at other times, condeming the practice of Christmas. You seem to be getting dangerously closeEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

its completely your choice and you dont have to take the view that Jw's take on the matter. We take this view because birthdays were originally a pagan religious ceremony. I guess we could carry on the tradition and put a different spin on it, but the fact is that it wasnt something Jesus did and if we want to be his 'followers' we need to do things as he did them.The bible tells us to become 'imitators' of christ... are we imitating his way of life if we practice things that he did not practice? i dont participate.
We go there for dinner and there isnt much more too it. i dont know how you managed to agree with Pauls words in corinthians, but then once again go down this path.You do realise that Pauls words were saying the opposite to what you've just stated here? Eating a turkey is not a pagan practice if one is not eating it for the purpose of celebrating a pagan practice...thats the crux of pauls argument about eating things sacrificed to idols. LOL.
perhaps if i was decorating my house, singing carols and proclaiming the birth of christ you might have a point.

Ill repeat this one more time. If one celebrates the 'Day of their birth', not in connection with any pagan God or Pagan cerimony, there is simply nothing UNSCRIPTURAL about that practice.The angel gave instruction to the sheperds to celebrate the birth of Jesus. If there was to be no celebration, there would be no reason to announce his birth.You have mistakenly confused to two ideas that dont apply to eachother EXCLUSIVELY. you have carried the principle to farBirthdays are not worship I agree Peg and that is my point. Had we not had this instruction by Paul, JWs, today would be instructing us that this turkey was non consumable due to the fact that it was offered to idols in a pagan cerimonyYou are the modern day people Paul was speaking to back then. Dont you get that?Because there are no instructions on birthdays one way or another in scripture, youve taken the course that those people back then had taken on eating of meat offered to idols.If there was a verse by Paul or Christ saying it was ok to celebrate a birhtday as long as it was not done in connection with Pagan cerimonies, you would then jump on that ban wagonYou are the very people he is instructing?If we were to take the time and could lay it all out. It would be to easy to demonstrate that we as modern people use and apply so many things today that were once a part of pagan practicesThe practices that God condemed had mostly to do with what they did as and in worship, for worship1 Cor 10Look at the first three words Peg in this passage. "Everything is permissible", unless it directly violates scripture, as we know. We do have certain freedoms that the old Law did not allow Peg. Now read the whole passage and apply it to Christmas and birthdaysYour principles are admirable but misguided and unscripturalEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.