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Author Topic:   Air Force Academy creates worship area for Pagans, Druids, and Wiccans
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 16 of 244 (556488)
04-20-2010 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Meldinoor
04-20-2010 2:06 AM


The idea that the first amendment was ever meant to give space to anything OTHER than the Christian religion in this nation is something you and I are going to disagree on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Meldinoor, posted 04-20-2010 2:06 AM Meldinoor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Rahvin, posted 04-20-2010 2:27 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 18 by hooah212002, posted 04-20-2010 2:35 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 19 by Meldinoor, posted 04-20-2010 2:42 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 21 by Rrhain, posted 04-20-2010 4:23 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 22 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-20-2010 6:11 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 23 by bluescat48, posted 04-20-2010 8:20 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 27 by Jazzns, posted 04-20-2010 10:44 AM Faith has replied
 Message 62 by ZephyrWiccan, posted 04-20-2010 7:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 17 of 244 (556489)
04-20-2010 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
04-20-2010 2:17 AM


The idea that the first amendment was ever meant to give space to anything OTHER than the Christian religion in this nation is something you and I are going to disagree on.
So, the freedom of religion actually means "you're free to worship Jesus however you want?"
That's not a difference of opinion, Faith. That's pure idiocy and bigotry, nothing more or less.
Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 2:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 18 of 244 (556490)
04-20-2010 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
04-20-2010 2:17 AM


Why, then, does the Constitution not specifically mention chrstianity? If the point was for you to be free to worship jeebus however you want, why didn't they put that in there? Why be ambiguous?

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 2:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4809 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 19 of 244 (556491)
04-20-2010 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
04-20-2010 2:17 AM


I'm afraid so. Especially since you apparently don't want to discuss the issue and come to an agreement. Is that how you deal with other topics of discussion? A sort of "I'm right, you're wrong, and if you don't like it you can go *bleep* yourself!" approach?
Oh wait, that's how you want religion to be handled in this country. You'd rather the government restricted people's religious freedoms and became a theocracy.
"Hey! Maybe if we oppress everyone who isn't a Christian they will see the love of God!"
I'm sorry, Faith. I think we're really just going to have to disagree on this one. While some of us are going to reach out and be "fishers of men"* using love, tolerance, and reason as bait, feel free to try scaring fish into your net using a sharp stick.
-Meldinoor
*A term used by Jesus for the early evangelists

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 2:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 20 of 244 (556496)
04-20-2010 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
04-20-2010 1:25 AM


Faith writes:
quote:
I know that the true God won't tolerate that for long.
So when are you converting?
You didn't think you worshipped the true god, did you?
Oh, and please answer my question:
Beetaratagang or clerendipity?
Edited by Rrhain, : No reason given.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 1:25 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Theodoric, posted 04-20-2010 11:04 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 21 of 244 (556497)
04-20-2010 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
04-20-2010 2:17 AM


Faith writes:
quote:
The idea that the first amendment was ever meant to give space to anything OTHER than the Christian religion in this nation is something you and I are going to disagree on.
So we should round up all the Jews and get rid of them, right? It's a First Amendment thing, right? Jews have no right to exist in the United States, right? We're a Christian nation, not a Jewish one, right?
Now, please answer my question:
Beetaratagang or clerendipity?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 2:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 22 of 244 (556502)
04-20-2010 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
04-20-2010 2:17 AM


Faith writes:
The idea that the first amendment was ever meant to give space to anything OTHER than the Christian religion in this nation is something you and I are going to disagree on.
Does this include Eastern Orthodox? Mormons? Jehova's Witnesses? Christian Scientists? Scientologists? Catholics? Seventh-Day Adventists? Unitarians (do not believe in the trinity)? Universalists? Congregationalists? Unification Church? Luthern? Angligan? Assemblies of God? Episcopalian? Presbytarian? Methodist? Independent Baptist? Southern Baptist? Freewill Baptist? Calvanists? Calvary Chapel (Foursquare)? Petacostals? Quakers? Menonites? Amish? Church of Christ? Christian Church? non-afiliated Deists? etc, etc ad infinitim
Faith, I do not want some cliche, unhonest answer. Honestly where do we draw the line in the sand here?

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 2:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 23 of 244 (556515)
04-20-2010 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
04-20-2010 2:17 AM


Christian Religion What's that.?
The idea that the first amendment was ever meant to give space to anything OTHER than the Christian religion in this nation is something you and I are going to disagree on.
It is obvious that you do not know what a Christian is. There are hundreds of Christian Religions. Most of which are not what those individuals who framed the US constitution believed. Many were Deists or even possibly Atheists, why would they make the establishment clause for Christians only?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 2:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 244 (556516)
04-20-2010 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Meldinoor
04-20-2010 2:02 AM


Endorsement Not Establishment
Meldinoor writes:
Well, rest assured that the establishment clause of the constitution prohibits the government from endorsing ANY religion. That's why Christian creationism can't be taught in public school science classrooms (beside the point that it's unscientific).
Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on why granting all religions a place to worship equals endorsing any specific religion. It seems to me that what's going on is really the opposite. Now if religion A were prohibited on the grounds that it offended members of religion B, would that not be a tacit endorsement of religion B? Food for thought.
That the founders essentially endorsed the Biblical religion which was the predominate religion in America does not constitute the establishment of any organized religion, such was the case in England and in the Dark Ages, both brutal and oppressive established state churches. The Pilgrims and subsequent Europeans who came to America were escaping the state established official and brutal Anglican Church Of England.
Traditionally, in America the endorsement of Biblical principles and of the Biblical god, Jehovah, has never established any organized religion as was the case in Europe and the Dark Ages. Policy was determined by the representatives of the republic, the military and such.
Now that things have changed in America, it does not surprise me that the AF Academy has accomodated paganism. This is the time of apostacy from truth, according to Biblical prophecy and is to be expected.
Dr Jones is correct, in that my comment was an acknowledgement of reality and not to say that the academy should be forbidden to do as they did. I certainly would not want to limit their right to exercise religion, be it Wiccan or whatever.
I'm saddend and alarmed for America, knowing that Jehovah does exist, that the action has been taken because history attests to the fact that nations like Haiti etc which are rife with such have not fared well culturally.
Obviously, the founder's impetus was that a church/state was not to be established in America but endorsement was exerciseable in or out of any level of government, as determined by elected reprepresentatives of the republic.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Meldinoor, posted 04-20-2010 2:02 AM Meldinoor has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Huntard, posted 04-20-2010 8:57 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 92 by Theodoric, posted 04-20-2010 11:07 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 25 of 244 (556517)
04-20-2010 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Buzsaw
04-20-2010 8:40 AM


Re: Endorsement Not Establishment
Buzsaw writes:
I'm saddend and alarmed for America, knowing that Jehovah does exist, that the action has been taken because history attests to the fact that nations like Haiti etc which are rife with such have not fared well culturally.
Buz, something like 98% of Haiti is Christian. That's more than in the USA. Your comment is nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Buzsaw, posted 04-20-2010 8:40 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 04-20-2010 10:12 AM Huntard has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 244 (556543)
04-20-2010 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Huntard
04-20-2010 8:57 AM


Re: Endorsement Not Establishment
Huntard writes:
Buz, something like 98% of Haiti is Christian. That's more than in the USA. Your comment is nonsense.
My understanding is that the predominant religion in Haiti has, for a long time been a Roman Catholic voodoo religious aborition. Wikipedia alludes to this.
Wiki writes:
Christian-Voodoo relations have been marked by political conflicts and syncretism, especially in Haiti and less so in Louisiana or elsewhere.
Interestingly, Lousiana is implicated in this as well in the Wiki site. Neither have fared well.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Add Wiki quote]

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Huntard, posted 04-20-2010 8:57 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Huntard, posted 04-20-2010 10:45 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 47 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-20-2010 12:41 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 63 by ZephyrWiccan, posted 04-20-2010 7:23 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 27 of 244 (556549)
04-20-2010 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
04-20-2010 2:17 AM


The Constitution is OLD
The idea that the first amendment was ever meant to give space to anything OTHER than the Christian religion in this nation is something you and I are going to disagree on.
The original constitution also only allowed white males to vote, allowed human beings to be owned as property, had Senators be appointed rather than elected, didn't extend federal law to the states, allowed alcohol to be sold in the US, disallowed alcohol to be sold in the US, let presidents be elected perpetually.
Even IF you are right, what does that have anything to do with regards to what we should do NOW as a country to promote religious freedoms? Should we rewrite that part of the 1st ammendment to be more specific to our current values? Or should we just recognize that the vast majority of our population believes in religious freedom above and beyond varieties of Christianity and interpret what is already a pretty broad wording of the 1st ammendment accordingly?

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 2:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 11:08 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 28 of 244 (556550)
04-20-2010 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
04-20-2010 10:12 AM


Re: Endorsement Not Establishment
The bad English used in this article makes me doubt it's validity. I mean, when you concoct sentences like this:
quote:
Haiti mostly had large percentages of Vodou believers. Catholicism was another religion with great influence under Vodou. In other words, Vodou has borrowed sort of 'far-reaching speculation' form from Roman Catholicism. The difference between Vodou and Roman Catholicism is Roman Catholic is more visible and official; However, Vodou was unofficial and secretive. Even though there are great number of Haitian claims their status of being Christian, and however, many of Haitians secretly practice ritual.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't read like a very objctive way to write.
Also, the article says this:
quote:
During the 56 year period Houngans and mambos built up the public religion of Haiti Voodoo. African spirit religion and Catholicism until the 1970's Haiti was nearly 100% catholic. In the 1970's evangelic Protestantism came to Haiti.
Again, it's bad English, but still, according to this until the 1970's 100% of Haiti was Christian. It still didn't fare very well.
The source it gives for the fact that the people of Haiti still practice "rituals" (whatever those may be), is a book called "faces of the gods" I'll research what this book is about this evening, but the fact they can't link to anything on the internet about it makes me suspicious.
In short, I think the article is a load of bullcrap.
{ABE}: Regardless, they're still Christian. But only you know what a real Christinan is, right Buz?
Edited by Huntard, : Added {ABE} bit

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 29 of 244 (556553)
04-20-2010 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Jazzns
04-20-2010 10:44 AM


Re: The Constitution is OLD
Jazzns, the Constitution has provisions written into it for changing whatever subsequent generations want to change, done so that the majority of the people and the states can have their input into it. That is the way to go about it. It isn't right to allow a few fallible judges to interpret it the way they want to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Jazzns, posted 04-20-2010 10:44 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by DrJones*, posted 04-20-2010 11:11 AM Faith has replied
 Message 34 by Jazzns, posted 04-20-2010 11:32 AM Faith has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 30 of 244 (556554)
04-20-2010 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
04-20-2010 11:08 AM


Re: The Constitution is OLD
It isn't right to allow a few fallible judges to interpret it the way they want to.
But thats exactly what the constitution allows. The Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of what is or isn't unconstitutional.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 11:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 11:20 AM DrJones* has replied

  
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