Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,419 Year: 3,676/9,624 Month: 547/974 Week: 160/276 Day: 34/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Air Force Academy creates worship area for Pagans, Druids, and Wiccans
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 91 of 244 (556745)
04-20-2010 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
04-20-2010 11:31 AM


Re: The Constitution is OLD
You are suggesting that I take a court judgment as the authority over the view of one of the founding fathers? Clever.
The views of a founding father will do quite nicely.
quote:
"The bill for establishing religious freedom," says the author, "I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. It still met with opposition; but with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that it's protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of it's protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination." (Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:67)
Thomas Jefferson viewed the First Ammendment as protecting every religion, and the lack thereof.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 11:31 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2010 2:26 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 95 of 244 (556750)
04-20-2010 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Buzsaw
04-20-2010 8:51 PM


Re: The Constitution is OLD
The president said something to the effect that he wanted judges who have an empathy for the people. The problem is which people.
The little guy. You know, me and you. As in the opposite of big corporations, lobbyists, and billionaires.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Buzsaw, posted 04-20-2010 8:51 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 96 of 244 (556752)
04-20-2010 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
04-20-2010 9:52 PM


Re: The Constitution is OLD
Buz's point was that the Supreme Court is to serve the law, justice and truth, not people, and anyone who reduces their obligation to being sensitive to people has already trashed justice.
Then why don't we appoint robots or computers? The very basis of law, justice, and truth is empathy, being able to put yourself in another person's shoes.
No, judges are to be about justice, not people. You know, that lady with the blindfold on holding the scales? That's to symbolize the impartiality of justice, that it's not to be a respecter of persons. The exact opposite of what Obama wants.
Egads. You do want computers to run this country. How sad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 9:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 109 of 244 (556867)
04-21-2010 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
04-21-2010 12:45 PM


Re: How America is/was Christian and how it is not
Freedom to practice any religion is only guaranteed BECAUSE this nation was originally Christian in principle and law and government.
Since when? The Pilgrims fled a country based on Christian principle and law because of religious persecution. Christianity has had a long history of persecuting other religions, as well as establishing theocracies that outlaw differing religious beliefs. Have you not heard of the Inquisition? Did you know that people were even burned at the stake by the Catholic church for simply owning a Bible (only the clerics wer allowed to read from the Bible)? You really need to read up on your history. One of the earliest christian governments was the Holy Roman Empire and they converted people at sword point. It was either convert or die.
The religious freedoms we enjoy today are based on secularism which is not a christian principle or law. Even atheists such as Locke and Voltaire factored in heavily in the writing of the Constitution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 12:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 1:19 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 115 of 244 (556885)
04-21-2010 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
04-21-2010 1:19 PM


Re: How America is/was Christian and how it is not
Catholicism had long since stopped being a Christian institution and the people the Inquisition most severely persecuted were the true Christians.
Yes, christians persecuting christians in a country ruled by christian principles and law. Go figure.
No, if you read any of writings of leaders of the founding generation of America -- read them, letters, documents, etc., or if you're going to read only cherry-picked quotes which is the situation most of us are in by necessity, then read those that show their Christian mindset, rather than the few that seem to support this false idea of secularism, you will see how wrong you are about this ever having been a "secular" nation in the sense you all mean it today.
I said that the constitution was based on secularism, as is our government. It is a government based on common ground exclusive of religious beliefs, the very basis of secularism. If you read the writings of the Founding Fathers they based the government on Reason, not on scripture. Many of the Founding Fathers were deists and did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, including Thomas Jefferson. How can you be a christian and not believe that Jesus is the son of God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 1:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 175 of 244 (557032)
04-22-2010 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Buzsaw
04-22-2010 8:16 AM


Re: Again And Again, Promoting Not Establishment
Well then, you are implying that the founders of the US of A republic and our Constitution were unfair, promoting the Christian religion and encouraging the usage of the New England Primer, the Bible and Watts Hymnal etc exclusively in the schools.
The founders did a lot of things incorrectly. Your point? They weren't demigods for Pete's sake.
You keep on keeping on ignoring the valid point that in a republic the representatives of the republic determine to what extent anything should be promoted or excluded.
The powers given to Congress by the Constitution do not include stripping people of their constitutional rights. It sounds to me as if you don't want a constitutional republic. You want anarchy where might makes right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Buzsaw, posted 04-22-2010 8:16 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Buzsaw, posted 04-22-2010 1:11 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 176 of 244 (557035)
04-22-2010 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Faith
04-22-2010 2:27 AM


Re: Freedom of religion
but as far as any of them wanting a theocracy that's just being read into their upholding Christian principles as the best standards for the country. You argue for your own standards don't you? Why shouldn't they be allowed to?
The problem is that their argument for putting these standards into law is because "the bible says so". In our government you need a better argument than this.
Also, if we were to codify the Ten Commandments into law we would lose religious freedom in this country. How does that make sense? The very first commandment is "thous shalt have no other gods before me". So much for "worship as you please".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 2:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 1:06 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 200 of 244 (557166)
04-23-2010 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Buzsaw
04-22-2010 1:11 PM


Re: Again And Again, Promoting Not Establishment
A lot of things, Taq? How about some specificities.
Others have mentioned the more obvious ones.
One of those rights is the free exercise of religion and the Constitution does not limit that free exercise in government buildings or functions.
But according to you Congress should have the right to strip people of their right to freely exercise their religious beliefs if a majority of Congress votes in support of such an idea.
Also, free exercise is a right of the individual. The government, as an entity, does not have this right. The government does not have the right to allow one faith to be allowed while excluding others, the whole point of the OP.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Buzsaw, posted 04-22-2010 1:11 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 201 of 244 (557167)
04-23-2010 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Faith
04-22-2010 2:27 PM


Re: Again And Again, Promoting Not Establishment
Interesting. At least you're honest. And you'd have stood up and heckled George Washington when he gave his farewell address too I suppose, all those references to God,
A search of the document finds no mention of God.
George Washington's Farewell Address
Perhaps you were thinking of something different?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 2:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 202 of 244 (557183)
04-23-2010 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
04-22-2010 7:10 PM


Re: separation of church and state etc.
Separation of church and state is fine by me if understood as it was originally understood, not as a club to be wielded against religion.
How is the first amendment being used as a club against religion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 7:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024