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Author Topic:   Entropy in Layman's Terms
Taq
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Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 13 of 51 (557182)
04-23-2010 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by purpledawn
04-23-2010 7:32 AM


Re: Bucket, Fridge, Engine
Kinda like when I'm relaxing in my chair and then grandson spills his drink on the floor. I now have to leave my relaxed position and expend energy to clean up the spill. Once done, I will go back to my relaxed position. The spill is the disparity. Once cleaned up, balance is back and I don't have to expend that energy.
The ATP (the main energy molecule in your cells) you use to stand up is forever gone. Your body must use ingested food to replace it, and the food will contain less energy than it did to start with. The mere act of sitting down does not replace that ATP. There is no machine or system you could use during the act of sitting down to replace all of the energy used in standing up (i.e. no perpetual energy machine).
IOW, "wasted" energy. Not used for the work at hand.
For the most part. For example, an internal combustion engine is fairly ineffecient. It pumps out hot air that is not used and it creates a lot of sound waves that are not used.
Refrigerators are another good example. They actually produce more heat than they do "cold". A refridgerator works by insulating the cold area from the heat it produces. However, overall there is an increase in heat due to the activity of the refrigerator. Hypothetically, if you opened all of the refrigerators in the world for a month it would actually heat the atmosphere, not cool it.

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 Message 11 by purpledawn, posted 04-23-2010 7:32 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by purpledawn, posted 04-23-2010 2:11 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 23 of 51 (557297)
04-24-2010 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by purpledawn
04-23-2010 2:11 PM


Re: Bucket, Fridge, Engine
As I was explaining to Percy, don't take lay analogies so literally. I was afraid someone would do what you just did. I'm the heat, the spill is the ice cube.
If that were the case then in the analogy you would leave part of yourself in the spill and take part of the spill back to your chair. That is what happens in thermodynamics, energy is exchanged so that it spreads evenly through the system.
IOW, it's not a very good analogy to begin with.
So it is the heat generated that is wasted. Heat that is not available to be used for anything else.
With regards to the system (the engine), it isn't useable. It is also worth noting that some of the earliest work in thermodynamics was done on steam engines and based on the Carnot Cycle principle. A google search should find all the info you need if you want to read up on it.
So entropy can be wasted energy or it can be unusable energy for a specific job.
Another way to put it is that there is no engine that is 100% effecient. All engines waste energy somewhere within the system. That is why a perpetual motion device is thermodynamically impossible.
But in the case of Percy's waterwheel, the water at the bottom is unusable energy in its present position for that specific job.
Yep, that's correct. Also, if the waterwheel were connected through an axle to another waterwheel going in the opposite direction you would not be able to move the same amount of water up the same elevation. You could move smaller amounts of water though.

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Taq
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Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 24 of 51 (557298)
04-24-2010 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by purpledawn
04-24-2010 9:56 AM


Re: Bucket, Fridge, Engine
I would think the water wheel would be more like the bucket that Rrhain mentioned. The water not available for work is the water that stays attached to the buckets, splashes, leaks or soaked into the wood if they are wood. The water at the bottom is still available for work. It just has to be returned to the top.
Getting the water back to the top would require you to pump energy into the system. You would wind up putting more energy into the system than you get out. In real life, the sun provides the energy input for the waterwheel system by evaporating water and moving it to higher elevations.

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Taq
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Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 25 of 51 (557299)
04-24-2010 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
04-24-2010 8:32 AM


Your assumption, of course is that from a purely natural viewpoint, there is no ID working in the universe.
We also assume that Santa Claus does not radomly thaw ice cubes either.

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Taq
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Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 26 of 51 (557300)
04-24-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by purpledawn
04-24-2010 8:08 AM


Re: Bucket, Fridge, Engine
From a laypersons standpoint equilibrium is balance, not lack of movement. That's why the water wheel doesn't give me a visual of balance. At the beginning the top is full and the bottom empty, then the top is empty and the bottom is full.
Perhaps this analogy will help. Try to balance a pencil on the tip. It doesn't like that position does it? It's unstable. The eraser side of the pencil has potential energy (gravity) which makes it unstable. When the pencil falls over that potential energy is converted to kinetic energy and the pencil winds up in a stable position (on its side). That is how the waterwheel system works. Water at a higher elevation is unstable. It has potential energy.
Is the water wheel supposed to be an analogy for heat flow?
It is a real example of potential energy being converted to kinetic energy. This results in less total energy (potential energy + kinetic energy + work done) at the end than at the beginning. The loss of useable energy is entropy.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 28 of 51 (557314)
04-24-2010 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by purpledawn
04-24-2010 2:39 PM


Re: Stable vs Unstable
I understand what you're saying about the pencil, but the water wheel doesn't provide that picture. I wouldn't view the water as unstable.
If the water were in a stable position then it wouldn't flow downhill through the wheel. It does flow downhill and through the wheel.
You're using words that mean something very different to me than they do to you concerning the situation. I wouldn't view potential energy as unstable. Potential energy has positive impression to me and unstable has a negative from my perspective. The pencil is visually unstable on a sharpened tip.
In order to have a discussion with anyone but yourself you may need to change the way you view things a bit and get out of your comfort zone.
So with the water wheel, you're talking about entropy concerning movement. The boiling water deals with entropy concerning heat.
Both deal with kinetic energy. Hold on to your hat for just a second. Temperature is the average kinetic energy of an group of molecules, be it in a solid, liquid, or gas. The easiest to visualize is a gas. As you probably know from high school physics and from your own experience, when you increase the temperature of a gas you increase it's pressure. This is because as you add energy to a gas you make the gas molecules go faster and faster making them hit the sides of a container harder and harder. Temperature is the movement of molecules. Heat is transferred by one molecule banging into the next. In this process one molecule loses velocity while the other gains velocity. This is why temperature reaches an equilibrium.
It is the same as water banging against the water wheel.

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Taq
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Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 38 of 51 (557417)
04-25-2010 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Buzsaw
04-25-2010 10:55 AM


No ID is allowed by your definition but 2LoT does allow for work effected decrease in entropy.
Can you name one instance where a human has been able to violate the 2LoT? Humans, like all other natural processes, are subject to the 2LoT. All processes that humans are involved in result in less work availabe at the end than at the beginning. All processes that humans are involved we observe that heat disperses through the system towards equilibrium. The only way we can make this go into reverse is to pump energy into the system in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics.
So what are you on about?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 46 of 51 (557498)
04-26-2010 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by purpledawn
04-26-2010 5:44 AM


Re: Entropy and the Layperson
Why would a layperson need to understand entropy?
In order to know when creationists are misusing the term.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 48 of 51 (557643)
04-27-2010 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Rrhain
04-26-2010 2:34 AM


Each step of this process is its own reaction and thus has its own options to bleed energy out of the system, but that's fine so long as the energy of the original photons is enough. If the excited chlorophyll is energetic enough, there will be enough energy in the system such that even though we lose some to entropy, heating up the cell, there is enough energy to drive all the reactions and deliver the electrons back to the chlorophyll to be used again.
You can also find examples of the reverse reaction in biology, ATP to excited photons:
The reaction:
Luciferase + Luciferin + ATP + O2 -------------------> oxyluciferin + AMP + emitted photon
This reaction is actually used quite extensively in the lab.

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