Spiritual Death is Not Biblical

Hi jaywill, Read what I said.I am saying if the second death is a spiritual death then that would mean annhilation.There is no such thing as spiritual death.Therefore all those cast into the lake of fire will be there for eternity suffering as John tells us.There is no such thing as being cast into the lake of fire for a little while.Those who are in the 1st resurrection will not be affected by the second death as it has no power over them.All those who stand before the Great White Throne Judgment will be cast into the lake of fire. I did think about it.Jesus has no control over who is a member of the church.
The church is the one that does the binding and loosing on earth.Jesus does control who is in the family of God. Only those who are born again.Hadn't you heard the church is full of a bunch of hypocrits.I am sorry to say I have to agree, that is true.Everybody that says Lord, Lord is not born again. When I was a babe drinking milk instead of the meat. Like Paul when I was a child I did as a child. When I became a man I put away childish things.Am I perfect? No way just a sinner saved by grace striving every day to let Jesus live through me.There is such a thing as growing up in the Lord. Depends on your definition of a Christian.If you are talking about a born again child of God sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. NO WAY Sure they can be members of a new testament church. In fact they can get the church to the point that God will remove the Brideship from the church.But all this is getting a long way from spiritual death. I enjoy talking about these things. Maybe you should start a thread and we can discuss these things without messing up PD'S thread.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Good morning ICANT, I think I understand you to be saying that the phrase "spiritual death" can only mean the annhilation into non-existence of the human spirit.Therefore, you say, it follows that there is no such thing as "spiritual death". Therefore also those teachers whoever they may be who define the second death as "spiritual death" are in error.Is that what you are saying ? Is there, ICANT, such a thing as being "hurt by the second death" ?If your answer is yes, please tell me who in your opinion is in danger of experiencing such a "hurt of the second death"?I am interested mostly in evidence derived from chapters 2 or 3 of Revelation. Here I do concede that Revelation 20:6 may present a question mark to something I wrote. For years I have known that. However, the evidence for temporary dispensational discipline of Christians after the second coming of Christ is entirely too strong to me.In the spirit of seeking the truth as you yourself desire, I note your reference to Revelation 20:6. At the present time I think it seems a little problematic to my view but not devastating.Maybe I will demonstrate why Revelation 20:6 is not devasting to the belief that some disciples of Jesus, who are saved forever, may be burned or hurt by the second death.But this is possibly aside to the issue of "spiritual death". Do you want to discuss it in another thread ? At the present I would put it this way. I know all those who stand before the great white throne judgment whose names are not found written in the book of life ... will be cast into the lake of fire.But I get your main point. So ...? Hold on here.The church is the body of Christ. No one comes to the Father except through the Son. How can you say that Jesus has no control over who is a member of His own Body ?Secondly, the binding and loosing on earth and in heaven has little to do with who Jesus decides comes through Him to the Father for eternal life and union to His mystical Body.Thank God, that is not controled by man. Man may discipline a brother and ask him not to attend the church meeting as is the case of a fornicator in Corinth. Man cannot exclude man from believing in Christ to receive the Spirit of Christ unto salvation.Where do you get the concept that the saints can control who is a member of the church but Jesus the Head of "His Body, which is the church" (Eph. 1:22,23)[/b] cannot control who becomes a member ? Who do you think controls who is born again, someone OTHER than Jesus Christ ?Thank God, Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone controls who is born again. The regeneration of a man or woman's human spirit is not something left up to man. It is up to God. " .... glorify your Son that the Son may glorify You; Even as You have given Him authority over all flesh to give eternal life to all whom You have given Him." (John 17:1,2)Who has been given authority over all flesh to give them eternal life ? Let's take the church in Corinth for an example. She represents a typical practical local church on earth. Paul said some of the saints there were more mature than others. He said that some saints were soulish, some were fleshly, and some were approved.Let us say that among some of the soulish or fleshly ones there were those who were hypocritical. Were they not members of the church in Corinth because of this?There are tares who are not wheat. They are hypocritical to the point of not being genuine Christians. I grant that. But we cannot say all immature or soulish brothers who are in some way hypocrits are not members of Christ's church because of this.Am I right ?Very interesting. But i have to leave right now.

ICANT writes:Given your position on this topic, could you explain what the expression, "Follow me and let the dead bury the dead" and "they are dead while they yet liveth", means, if it is not speaking about spiritual things.here is what I mean specifically. God the Bible, bible related topics, issues and doctrines and teachings are all about spiritual matters.Jesus said in John 6:63 "The words that I speak unto you they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE."So as in the above verses, to not follow Christ or his teaching would be to be spiritually dead, in every sense of the word. In other words to argue that there is no spiritual death because a spirit cannot go out of existence would be a matter of semantics, correct?Further what verses would you use to suggest that a spirit cannot go out of existence? Would this not imply that all spirits are immortal along with God himself? If they are not, would it not suggest that they could go out of existence if they were brought into existence inthe first place. Hebrews suggests that God is the "father or all spirits"Just a few thoughts here dont mean to interupt your ongoing discussion and if you have already addressed these questions simply point me to that postEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

Hi EMA, Anytime we try to understand God we need to remember what He said:

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Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

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We think in human earthly terms which God does not.God has abilities we can not even dream of.One of those abilities is that He is not bound by time as we are. He exists in an eternal now, seeing the beginning and the end at the same time.As far as He is concerned the Great White Throne Judgment has taken place and all those who did not trust Him have been cast into the lake of fire.The wages of sin is death. Rom 6:23.Sin is disobedience to God.The man formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed God and reaped the wages of death. He was immediately separated from God as the voice of God is what came to him after his sin not God Himself.As far as God was concerned that man was dead in his trespasses and sins.That is the reason the sacrifice was prepared, offered, and accepted before the foundation of the world.That said you are referring to what Jesus said in:

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Mat 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

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Every person that has not been born again of the Holy Spirit is dead though his flesh body is alive.Paul put it this way talking to born again children of God:

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Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

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Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

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The Greek word transliterated syzopoie translated as quickened means to make alive.As far as God is concerned everyone who has not been made alive by the Holy Spirit in the new birth is dead even though his physical body is alive..Thus Jesus told the disciple let the dead bury the dead. In other words you got more important things to do.God and His Work is the most important thing that there is. We are to put God first and that is the lesson Jesus is teaching. Nothing is more important God.As far back as I can remember, more than 60 years I have heard this death refereed to as "spiritual death". Man in this condition is spiritually separated from God but his spirit is not dead just as his physical body is not dead.Since a spirit can not die there is no such thing as "spiritual death".

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Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

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The spirit will return to God who gave it to mankind. In the resurrection that spirit will receive an eternal body. That body and spirit will have the sentence carried out. If the spirit has been born again it will spend eternity with God. If that spirit has not been born again it will spend eternity in the lake of fire.Again spirits do not die.There can be no spiritual death.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi EMA, Posted before seeing edit.PD requires the plain text.The plain text of the entire Bible does not mention spiritual death.The spiritual separation of man and God has been called spiritual death.Which would imply a spirit could die.There are many who would love that. In fact all those who teach total destruction of body, mind, and spirit when one is cast into the lake of fire would probably shout with joy if it were true.But alas the spirit must return to the giver of that spirit. Ecc 12:7God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Thanks for your response, you really didnt answer my questions directly but I will not clutter up the discussion, I am enjoying watching your, PDs and Jaywills comments. Shhhhhhh. Did you read your email
\EAM

Hi jaywill, Why don't you start a thread with this post in which we could start a discussion of Bible Doctrine. We could start with the definition of a church and go from there. When we finish the Church we could go on to something else. That way we won't be so off topic in this thread.God bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

ICANT,I suggest that I revive an old thread on "The Tree of Life as the Life of God" under Bible Study.We can continue there. I would rather emphaize the life of God anyway. I am kind of tired of talking about death. Further discussion about any "spiritual death" I prefer would be on that thread.See you there.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I suppose it's time to get down to the verses actually specified in the OP. Notice that the Exodus quote doesn't even mention death at all?Ezekiel is writing as a priest deprived of his temple, among a people who have lost their country and been carried away captive to a totally different culture into which they are forcibly being assimilated. Let's look back toward the beginning of the passage, to get the context Ezekiel isn't writing in a vacuum here, having served under King Jehoiachin in the ruins of the "good kingship" of Josiah, one of the most profound influences in his life would have been the prophet Jeremiah I wish we knew the source of the "sour grapes" reference, it doesn't appear to be related to Aesop; I expect it is a Babylonian proverb of some kind.But we do know what the business about how everyone should die for their own iniquity is about. The reforms instituted under Josiah which made Jeremiah's ministry possible were inspired by the introduction into common usage of the book of Deuteronomy. Ezekiel, being a priest, would have been intimately familiar with these words Now that we have gotten a foothold in the actual Torah, it may be tempting to drag Exodus right in and let Moses fight it out with Moses. But we aren't really justified in doing this yet, we have no reason to claim that Ezekiel or Jeremiah had it available to them.It took Ezra and company 12 years of very rigorous scholarship to compile together the complete Torah in 5 books that we have now. The Exodus passage may have been part of the law that was forgotten during the reigns of King Manasseh and his son Amon; but if so, it was forgotten. What we know was found or restored was simply Deuteronomy.I would settle for a textual indication that Ezekiel or Jeremiah had the Exodus passage in front of them. Something like a reference to yet a further "generation" would be perfect. But, it simply isn't there.There are other things that these prophets most certainly were able to read and make reference too, though. In the previous "good kingship" under Hezekiah in the prior century, Isaiah had written extensively about the kingdom that was now their primary problem This is one of the prettiest parts of Isaiah, by the way. It's from that wonderful diatribe against the prince of Babylon that Origen highjacked to dress up his brilliantly evocative myth about fallen angels and Jerome subverted into a political attack on one of the enemies of his mentor Athanasius, the conservative bishop Lucifer of Caligari. We don't have any doubt that Exekiel loved it too; he modeled his own poetic attack on the king of Tyre directly after this passage. Now, do we have anything in this part of Isaiah to indicate that he may have been familiar with the Exodus text?Could be So, having a gotten us a preponderance of the scriptures, rightly divided, we should be able to settle this question without appealing to any post-Biblical "magic bullet" solution at all.What is it that Babylon is notorious for; that Ezekiel and Jeremiah had every reason to worry their countrymen were going to fall down into; that Isaiah is certain of the consequences of; that is the subject of the condemnation in Exodus? Idolatry.The rule of law is what punishes individual crimes. Fairly applied, it punishes only the individual criminal. But idolatry brings bad consequences down on more than just the individual, it affects whole nations and their posterity.If I steal something, or kill someone, I'm the one who is at fault. I should accept responsibility for my actions and bear the consequences.But if you subvert the rule of law and take time and money that should be used to feed the hungry and heal the sick and clothe the poor; and use it instead to set up stone tablets in the courthouse in direct violation of the laws of man and God; or to try to replace the living word of truth that is available in every library in America with some apologetic pseudo-science that you lie about buying and blame on one of your fellow church members; or in short, to try to replace the God of the bible with some idol created by Augustine to help hold a wicked empire together; well then, the consequences of that are going to affect more people than just you, they are going to bring misery down on your children and their children and everyone else who falls under the influence of your hypocritical vain self-righteous idolatry.But as for the actual application of the justice system, in that sense we are just going to punish you. Edited by Iblis, : get the message?

The Christian writers says "our conscience", meaning the believers' in Jesus consciences, are cleansed to serve the living God. This is in constrast to worshipping in a spiritually dead religion with "dead works".The to try to serve God with spirititless and spiritually lifeless "dead works" is a defilement to the conscience. It is an offense against the living God, which needs to be cleansed by His redemptive blood -"purify our conscience from dead works". This testifies the the biblicism of "spiritual death".In this case, works, deeds, actions, religious activities disassociated with the Holy Spirit are spiritually dead - "dead works". And the stain such spiritually dead works leave on the seeker's conscience must be purified away with sinful deeds, transgressions, and other iniquities. "... purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God"While without the Holy Spirit, the relgionists apparantly did not realize the spiritual death inherant in such "dead works". Drawing close to the living God thier consciences were made aware of the difference in the light of spiritual vitality and life.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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