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Author Topic:   Spiritual Death is Not Biblical
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 271 of 281 (535959)
11-18-2009 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by jaywill
11-18-2009 4:13 PM


Re: Out of Death Into Life
Hi jaywill,

jaywill writes:

I understand you here to be saying that to be cast into the second death, the lake of fire is to have the human spirit annhilated, pass out of existence. If that is what you mean I think I would not agree.

Read what I said.

I am saying if the second death is a spiritual death then that would mean annhilation.

There is no such thing as spiritual death.

Therefore all those cast into the lake of fire will be there for eternity suffering as John tells us.

There is no such thing as being cast into the lake of fire for a little while.

Those who are in the 1st resurrection will not be affected by the second death as it has no power over them.

All those who stand before the Great White Throne Judgment will be cast into the lake of fire.

jaywill writes:

Think about this ICANT. This letter is written to a church. Now man may be sloppy or mistaken and include unbelievers in a "church". But Jesus Christ would not be sloppy or mistaken. He knows who is a part of His church and who is not. Do you agree?

I did think about it.

Jesus has no control over who is a member of the church.
The church is the one that does the binding and loosing on earth.

Jesus does control who is in the family of God. Only those who are born again.

Hadn't you heard the church is full of a bunch of hypocrits.

I am sorry to say I have to agree, that is true.

Everybody that says Lord, Lord is not born again.

jaywill writes:

The fact of the matter is that we NEED such exhortation because every born again Christian does NOT walk after the Spirit. Sometimes you and I do not walk after the Spirit. Am I right ?

When I was a babe drinking milk instead of the meat. Like Paul when I was a child I did as a child. When I became a man I put away childish things.

Am I perfect? No way just a sinner saved by grace striving every day to let Jesus live through me.

There is such a thing as growing up in the Lord.

jaywill writes:

Can a Christian in the church in Smyrna be hurt of the second death ?

Depends on your definition of a Christian.

If you are talking about a born again child of God sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. NO WAY

jaywill writes:

Do unbelievers constitute a new testament church in any regard ?

Sure they can be members of a new testament church. In fact they can get the church to the point that God will remove the Brideship from the church.

But all this is getting a long way from spiritual death. I enjoy talking about these things. Maybe you should start a thread and we can discuss these things without messing up PD'S thread.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by jaywill, posted 11-18-2009 4:13 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by jaywill, posted 11-19-2009 8:13 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 273 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-19-2009 9:28 AM ICANT has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 272 of 281 (536002)
11-19-2009 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by ICANT
11-18-2009 10:13 PM


Re: Out of Death Into Life
Good morning ICANT,

Read what I said.

I am saying if the second death is a spiritual death then that would mean annhilation.

There is no such thing as spiritual death.

I think I understand you to be saying that the phrase "spiritual death" can only mean the annhilation into non-existence of the human spirit.

Therefore, you say, it follows that there is no such thing as "spiritual death". Therefore also those teachers whoever they may be who define the second death as "spiritual death" are in error.

Is that what you are saying ?


Therefore all those cast into the lake of fire will be there for eternity suffering as John tells us.

There is no such thing as being cast into the lake of fire for a little while.

Is there, ICANT, such a thing as being "hurt by the second death" ?

If your answer is yes, please tell me who in your opinion is in danger of experiencing such a "hurt of the second death"?

I am interested mostly in evidence derived from chapters 2 or 3 of Revelation.


Those who are in the 1st resurrection will not be affected by the second death as it has no power over them.

Here I do concede that Revelation 20:6 may present a question mark to something I wrote. For years I have known that. However, the evidence for temporary dispensational discipline of Christians after the second coming of Christ is entirely too strong to me.

In the spirit of seeking the truth as you yourself desire, I note your reference to Revelation 20:6. At the present time I think it seems a little problematic to my view but not devastating.

Maybe I will demonstrate why Revelation 20:6 is not devasting to the belief that some disciples of Jesus, who are saved forever, may be burned or hurt by the second death.

But this is possibly aside to the issue of "spiritual death". Do you want to discuss it in another thread ?


All those who stand before the Great White Throne Judgment will be cast into the lake of fire.

At the present I would put it this way. I know all those who stand before the great white throne judgment whose names are not found written in the book of life ... will be cast into the lake of fire.

But I get your main point. So ...?


jaywill writes:
Think about this ICANT. This letter is written to a church. Now man may be sloppy or mistaken and include unbelievers in a "church". But Jesus Christ would not be sloppy or mistaken. He knows who is a part of His church and who is not. Do you agree?

I did think about it.

Jesus has no control over who is a member of the church.
The church is the one that does the binding and loosing on earth.

Hold on here.

The church is the body of Christ. No one comes to the Father except through the Son. How can you say that Jesus has no control over who is a member of His own Body ?

Secondly, the binding and loosing on earth and in heaven has little to do with who Jesus decides comes through Him to the Father for eternal life and union to His mystical Body.

Thank God, that is not controled by man. Man may discipline a brother and ask him not to attend the church meeting as is the case of a fornicator in Corinth. Man cannot exclude man from believing in Christ to receive the Spirit of Christ unto salvation.

Where do you get the concept that the saints can control who is a member of the church but Jesus the Head of "His Body, which is the church" (Eph. 1:22,23)[/b] cannot control who becomes a member ?


Jesus does control who is in the family of God. Only those who are born again.

Who do you think controls who is born again, someone OTHER than Jesus Christ ?

Thank God, Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone controls who is born again. The regeneration of a man or woman's human spirit is not something left up to man. It is up to God.

" .... glorify your Son that the Son may glorify You; Even as You have given Him authority over all flesh to give eternal life to all whom You have given Him." (John 17:1,2)

Who has been given authority over all flesh to give them eternal life ?


Hadn't you heard the church is full of a bunch of hypocrits.

Let's take the church in Corinth for an example. She represents a typical practical local church on earth. Paul said some of the saints there were more mature than others. He said that some saints were soulish, some were fleshly, and some were approved.

Let us say that among some of the soulish or fleshly ones there were those who were hypocritical. Were they not members of the church in Corinth because of this?

There are tares who are not wheat. They are hypocritical to the point of not being genuine Christians. I grant that. But we cannot say all immature or soulish brothers who are in some way hypocrits are not members of Christ's church because of this.

Am I right ?

Very interesting. But i have to leave right now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by ICANT, posted 11-18-2009 10:13 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by ICANT, posted 11-19-2009 12:48 PM jaywill has responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 273 of 281 (536015)
11-19-2009 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by ICANT
11-18-2009 10:13 PM


Re: Out of Death Into Life
ICANT writes:
But all this is getting a long way from spiritual death. I enjoy talking about these things. Maybe you should start a thread and we can discuss these things without messing up PD'S thread.

God Bless,

Given your position on this topic, could you explain what the expression, "Follow me and let the dead bury the dead" and "they are dead while they yet liveth", means, if it is not speaking about spiritual things.

here is what I mean specifically. God the Bible, bible related topics, issues and doctrines and teachings are all about spiritual matters.

Jesus said in John 6:63 "The words that I speak unto you they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE."

So as in the above verses, to not follow Christ or his teaching would be to be spiritually dead, in every sense of the word. In other words to argue that there is no spiritual death because a spirit cannot go out of existence would be a matter of semantics, correct?

Further what verses would you use to suggest that a spirit cannot go out of existence? Would this not imply that all spirits are immortal along with God himself? If they are not, would it not suggest that they could go out of existence if they were brought into existence inthe first place. Hebrews suggests that God is the "father or all spirits"

Just a few thoughts here dont mean to interupt your ongoing discussion and if you have already addressed these questions simply point me to that post

EAM

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by ICANT, posted 11-18-2009 10:13 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by ICANT, posted 11-19-2009 12:09 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 275 by ICANT, posted 11-19-2009 12:38 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 274 of 281 (536038)
11-19-2009 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Dawn Bertot
11-19-2009 9:28 AM


Re: Out of Death Into Life
Hi EMA,

EMA writes:

Given your position on this topic, could you explain what the expression, "Follow me and let the dead bury the dead" and "they are dead while they yet liveth", means, if it is not speaking about spiritual things.

Anytime we try to understand God we need to remember what He said:

quote:
Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We think in human earthly terms which God does not.

God has abilities we can not even dream of.

One of those abilities is that He is not bound by time as we are. He exists in an eternal now, seeing the beginning and the end at the same time.

As far as He is concerned the Great White Throne Judgment has taken place and all those who did not trust Him have been cast into the lake of fire.

The wages of sin is death. Rom 6:23.

Sin is disobedience to God.

The man formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed God and reaped the wages of death. He was immediately separated from God as the voice of God is what came to him after his sin not God Himself.

As far as God was concerned that man was dead in his trespasses and sins.

That is the reason the sacrifice was prepared, offered, and accepted before the foundation of the world.

That said you are referring to what Jesus said in:

quote:
Mat 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Every person that has not been born again of the Holy Spirit is dead though his flesh body is alive.

Paul put it this way talking to born again children of God:

quote:
Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


The Greek word transliterated syz├┤opoie├┤ translated as quickened means to make alive.

As far as God is concerned everyone who has not been made alive by the Holy Spirit in the new birth is dead even though his physical body is alive..

Thus Jesus told the disciple let the dead bury the dead. In other words you got more important things to do.

God and His Work is the most important thing that there is. We are to put God first and that is the lesson Jesus is teaching. Nothing is more important God.

As far back as I can remember, more than 60 years I have heard this death refereed to as "spiritual death". Man in this condition is spiritually separated from God but his spirit is not dead just as his physical body is not dead.

Since a spirit can not die there is no such thing as "spiritual death".

quote:
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit will return to God who gave it to mankind. In the resurrection that spirit will receive an eternal body. That body and spirit will have the sentence carried out. If the spirit has been born again it will spend eternity with God. If that spirit has not been born again it will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

Again spirits do not die.

There can be no spiritual death.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-19-2009 9:28 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-19-2009 12:40 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 275 of 281 (536042)
11-19-2009 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Dawn Bertot
11-19-2009 9:28 AM


Re: Out of Death Into Life
Hi EMA,

EMA writes:

So as in the above verses, to not follow Christ or his teaching would be to be spiritually dead, in every sense of the word. In other words to argue that there is no spiritual death because a spirit cannot go out of existence would be a matter of semantics, correct?

Posted before seeing edit.

PD requires the plain text.

The plain text of the entire Bible does not mention spiritual death.

The spiritual separation of man and God has been called spiritual death.

Which would imply a spirit could die.

There are many who would love that. In fact all those who teach total destruction of body, mind, and spirit when one is cast into the lake of fire would probably shout with joy if it were true.

But alas the spirit must return to the giver of that spirit. Ecc 12:7

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-19-2009 9:28 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 276 of 281 (536043)
11-19-2009 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ICANT
11-19-2009 12:09 PM


Re: Out of Death Into Life
The spirit will return to God who gave it to mankind. In the resurrection that spirit will receive an eternal body. That body and spirit will have the sentence carried out. If the spirit has been born again it will spend eternity with God. If that spirit has not been born again it will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

Again spirits do not die.

There can be no spiritual death.

Thanks for your response, you really didnt answer my questions directly but I will not clutter up the discussion, I am enjoying watching your, PDs and Jaywills comments. Shhhhhhh. Did you read your email
\EAM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ICANT, posted 11-19-2009 12:09 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 277 of 281 (536044)
11-19-2009 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by jaywill
11-19-2009 8:13 AM


Re: Out of Death Into Life
Hi jaywill,

jaywill writes:

Hold on here.

Why don't you start a thread with this post in which we could start a discussion of Bible Doctrine. We could start with the definition of a church and go from there. When we finish the Church we could go on to something else. That way we won't be so off topic in this thread.

God bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by jaywill, posted 11-19-2009 8:13 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by jaywill, posted 11-20-2009 5:25 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 278 of 281 (536148)
11-20-2009 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by ICANT
11-19-2009 12:48 PM


Re: Out of Death Into Life
ICANT,

I suggest that I revive an old thread on "The Tree of Life as the Life of God" under Bible Study.

We can continue there. I would rather emphaize the life of God anyway. I am kind of tired of talking about death. Further discussion about any "spiritual death" I prefer would be on that thread.

See you there.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by ICANT, posted 11-19-2009 12:48 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 279 of 281 (536267)
11-21-2009 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dawn Bertot
09-16-2009 2:12 AM


Spiritual Death
I suppose it's time to get down to the verses actually specified in the OP.

purpledawn writes:

One example of this issue are the verses Exodus 20:5 and Ezekiel 18:20

Exodus 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

It has been argued that the punishment in these verses may deal with spiritual death and not real time physical punishment or death.

Notice that the Exodus quote doesn't even mention death at all?

Ezekiel is writing as a priest deprived of his temple, among a people who have lost their country and been carried away captive to a totally different culture into which they are forcibly being assimilated. Let's look back toward the beginning of the passage, to get the context

Ezekiel 18:2 writes:

What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?

Ezekiel isn't writing in a vacuum here, having served under King Jehoiachin in the ruins of the "good kingship" of Josiah, one of the most profound influences in his life would have been the prophet Jeremiah

Jeremiah 31:29,30 writes:

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

I wish we knew the source of the "sour grapes" reference, it doesn't appear to be related to Aesop; I expect it is a Babylonian proverb of some kind.

But we do know what the business about how everyone should die for their own iniquity is about. The reforms instituted under Josiah which made Jeremiah's ministry possible were inspired by the introduction into common usage of the book of Deuteronomy. Ezekiel, being a priest, would have been intimately familiar with these words

Deuteronomy 24:16 writes:

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Now that we have gotten a foothold in the actual Torah, it may be tempting to drag Exodus right in and let Moses fight it out with Moses. But we aren't really justified in doing this yet, we have no reason to claim that Ezekiel or Jeremiah had it available to them.

It took Ezra and company 12 years of very rigorous scholarship to compile together the complete Torah in 5 books that we have now. The Exodus passage may have been part of the law that was forgotten during the reigns of King Manasseh and his son Amon; but if so, it was forgotten. What we know was found or restored was simply Deuteronomy.

I would settle for a textual indication that Ezekiel or Jeremiah had the Exodus passage in front of them. Something like a reference to yet a further "generation" would be perfect. But, it simply isn't there.

There are other things that these prophets most certainly were able to read and make reference too, though. In the previous "good kingship" under Hezekiah in the prior century, Isaiah had written extensively about the kingdom that was now their primary problem

Isaiah 14:21,22 writes:

Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

This is one of the prettiest parts of Isaiah, by the way. It's from that wonderful diatribe against the prince of Babylon that Origen highjacked to dress up his brilliantly evocative myth about fallen angels and Jerome subverted into a political attack on one of the enemies of his mentor Athanasius, the conservative bishop Lucifer of Caligari.

Isaiah 14:12,13 writes:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

We don't have any doubt that Exekiel loved it too; he modeled his own poetic attack on the king of Tyre directly after this passage.

Ezekiel 28:14,15 writes:

Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Now, do we have anything in this part of Isaiah to indicate that he may have been familiar with the Exodus text?

Could be

Isaiah 13:19,20 writes:

And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

So, having a gotten us a preponderance of the scriptures, rightly divided, we should be able to settle this question without appealing to any post-Biblical "magic bullet" solution at all.

What is it that Babylon is notorious for; that Ezekiel and Jeremiah had every reason to worry their countrymen were going to fall down into; that Isaiah is certain of the consequences of; that is the subject of the condemnation in Exodus?

Idolatry.

The rule of law is what punishes individual crimes. Fairly applied, it punishes only the individual criminal. But idolatry brings bad consequences down on more than just the individual, it affects whole nations and their posterity.

If I steal something, or kill someone, I'm the one who is at fault. I should accept responsibility for my actions and bear the consequences.

But if you subvert the rule of law and take time and money that should be used to feed the hungry and heal the sick and clothe the poor; and use it instead to set up stone tablets in the courthouse in direct violation of the laws of man and God; or to try to replace the living word of truth that is available in every library in America with some apologetic pseudo-science that you lie about buying and blame on one of your fellow church members; or in short, to try to replace the God of the bible with some idol created by Augustine to help hold a wicked empire together; well then, the consequences of that are going to affect more people than just you, they are going to bring misery down on your children and their children and everyone else who falls under the influence of your hypocritical vain self-righteous idolatry.

But as for the actual application of the justice system, in that sense we are just going to punish you.

Second Chronicles 25:4 writes:

But he slew not their children, but [did] as [it is] written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

Edited by Iblis, : get the message?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-16-2009 2:12 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 280 of 281 (537637)
11-29-2009 10:57 PM


Cleansed From "dead works"
"How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Hebrew 9:14)

The Christian writers says "our conscience", meaning the believers' in Jesus consciences, are cleansed to serve the living God. This is in constrast to worshipping in a spiritually dead religion with "dead works".

The to try to serve God with spirititless and spiritually lifeless "dead works" is a defilement to the conscience. It is an offense against the living God, which needs to be cleansed by His redemptive blood -"purify our conscience from dead works". This testifies the the biblicism of "spiritual death".

In this case, works, deeds, actions, religious activities disassociated with the Holy Spirit are spiritually dead - "dead works". And the stain such spiritually dead works leave on the seeker's conscience must be purified away with sinful deeds, transgressions, and other iniquities.

"... purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God"

While without the Holy Spirit, the relgionists apparantly did not realize the spiritual death inherant in such "dead works". Drawing close to the living God thier consciences were made aware of the difference in the light of spiritual vitality and life.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


  
anthonylau 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 3319 days)
Posts: 20
Joined: 04-24-2010


Message 281 of 281 (557248)
04-24-2010 12:58 AM


spam deletion

Edited by AdminAsgara, : spam deletion


    
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