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Author Topic:   Entropy in Layman's Terms
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 16 of 51 (557278)
04-24-2010 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by purpledawn
04-23-2010 1:57 PM


Re: Bucket, Fridge, Engine
Hi Purpledawn,
When the water is in the water tank the system is not in equilibrium because the water can flow down the sluice and water wheel and do work. When the water is in the pool at the bottom of the wheel the system is now in equilibrium because the water can flow no lower and has no more potential to do work. It is in it's lowest energy state.
Of course, if the pool at the bottom of the wheel isn't really the lowest point then the water has the potential to do more work. For instance, if the pool is actually a river shore then the water can flow further down stream and do more work along the way, including flowing down another water wheel that might be present at the river's edge.
When Rrhain mentioned an ice cube and boiling water he was giving a heat flow example of thermodynamics, where it's heat that is flowing from hotter to colder instead of water flowing from higher to lower. Heat can only flow from hotter to colder, not in the opposite direction, so heat will flow from the boiling water to the ice cube. When the ice cube and the boiling water are the same temperature then heat can no longer flow and the system is in equilibrium, just as in the water wheel example where when the water is all in the pool at the bottom of the wheel it can no longer flow and the system is in equilibrium.
The reason the example with you in the chair is not analogous to heat or water flow is that you start and end in the exact same position. In the water wheel example the water began in the tank at the top and ended up in the pool at the bottom. In the heat flow example the heat began in the boiling water and ended up evenly distributed throughout the water, including the ice cube which melted and joined the water in the pot. But you started in the chair and ended in the chair.
If you like you can try and refine your example, but it feels like you're headed in the wrong direction. Part of the problem may be that when Rrhain uses the word "disparity" he only means difference, as in the difference in heat between the boiling water and the ice cube, while you're thinking of "disparity" as a disturbance, as in your nephew spilling something.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by purpledawn, posted 04-23-2010 1:57 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by purpledawn, posted 04-24-2010 8:08 AM Percy has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 17 of 51 (557283)
04-24-2010 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Percy
04-24-2010 7:11 AM


Re: Bucket, Fridge, Engine
quote:
When Rrhain mentioned an ice cube and boiling water he was giving a heat flow example of thermodynamics, where it's heat that is flowing from hotter to colder instead of water flowing from higher to lower. Heat can only flow from hotter to colder, not in the opposite direction, so heat will flow from the boiling water to the ice cube. When the ice cube and the boiling water are the same temperature then heat can no longer flow and the system is in equilibrium, just as in the water wheel example where when the water is all in the pool at the bottom of the wheel it can no longer flow and the system is in equilibrium.
From a laypersons standpoint equilibrium is balance, not lack of movement. That's why the water wheel doesn't give me a visual of balance. At the beginning the top is full and the bottom empty, then the top is empty and the bottom is full.
With the boiling water image, I can understand balance because the water eventually reaches the same temperature.
From what I've learned so far, I now understand Rrhain's statement: There are many pithy sayings regarding the Second Law and entropy, but the problem with them is that they wind up being used in places where they make no sense. The reductions are accurate, but can only be understood within the concept of thermodynamics, not other areas. So if we're going to explain it in layman's terms, we have to start with making the point that entropy is a statement about energy. It isn't about "information" or "order" or "disorder."
So I take it the concept of entropy was born in thermodynamics.
Is the water wheel supposed to be an analogy for heat flow?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 04-24-2010 7:11 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Percy, posted 04-24-2010 9:08 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 26 by Taq, posted 04-24-2010 12:04 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 51 (557286)
04-24-2010 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rrhain
01-23-2010 3:33 AM


Unmanaged Energy vs Managed Energy, I E Evolution vs Creation (EvC)
Rrhain writes:
So if we're going to explain it in layman's terms, we have to start with making the point that entropy is a statement about energy. It isn't about "information" or "order" or "disorder."
In short, entropy is the energy in the system that cannot be used for work. Thermodynamics works by moving energy around from one place to another.
Thanks for ititiating this topic, Rrhain and thanks to Admin for promoting it. This so succinctly explains why the Buzsaw Hypothesis relative to 2LoT makes sense relative to ID and work. With ID, there is no energy in the system which cannot be managed so as to be used for work. That is not to say that there is not unmanaged energy in the ID system.
Your assumption, of course is that from a purely natural viewpoint, there is no ID working in the universe. That doesn't appear to be the case when you thoughtfully consider a submicroscopic dot expanding into all of the complexity, order and mass that we observe in the universe.
What we observe relative to your laymen's definition is that aside from management, things do tend towards disorder. If we don't keep up the barn roof via work, it begins to leak and sooner or later the barn collapses into disorder. Whatever is not ID maintained and managed via work tends towards disorder whereas managed energy effects order.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Improve upon the wording of the last phrase and add message title.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rrhain, posted 01-23-2010 3:33 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Son, posted 04-24-2010 9:55 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 25 by Taq, posted 04-24-2010 11:58 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 36 by Rrhain, posted 04-25-2010 9:00 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 19 of 51 (557289)
04-24-2010 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by purpledawn
04-24-2010 8:08 AM


Re: Bucket, Fridge, Engine
purpledawn writes:
Is the water wheel supposed to be an analogy for heat flow?
Oh, no, the water wheel is pure thermodynamics, not an analogy. Just as the heat content of water has the potential to do work (e.g., steam pushing against and moving a piston in a steam engine), the potential energy of water in a water tank also has the potential to do work (e.g., turning a water wheel as it flows downhill).
Chemical bonds also store energy that has the potential to do work. ATP is an energy containing molecule used by your muscles when you do work. When you clean up your nephews spill you are converting the chemical energy in ATP molecules into the kinetic energy of the movement of your body. As you clean the spill the energy in the ATP molecules is being distributed more and more evenly into the environment around you in the form of increasing body temperature that is radiated away as heat into the air and in the form of kinetic energy of other things you set in motion like sponges and towels and in the form of increased heat caused by friction as you rub the rug. When you've finished cleaning the spill you have lessened your ability to do work, and the energy of the work you've done has mainly just increased the temperature of your surroundings.
By the way, whether a clean or dirty rug is higher or lower in its potential to do work (lower or higher entropy) is probably impossible to figure out. Because of the analogies that are often used when explaining thermodynamics to laypeople, it is a common misconception that a dirty room has higher entropy than a clean room. In reality, if we define our original system as the dirty room with you in it, then after you've used all that energy putting things away and dusting and cleaning and so forth, you and the now clean room have higher entropy because of all the energy you used that was at one time concentrated in your body and is now more evenly distributed into your surroundings.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by purpledawn, posted 04-24-2010 8:08 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by purpledawn, posted 04-24-2010 9:56 AM Percy has replied

  
Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 20 of 51 (557291)
04-24-2010 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
04-24-2010 8:32 AM


Did you actually read the thread? What you said had nothing to do with what the participants said. The op you quoted even said that 2Lot wasn't about order, disorder , etc.... so why are you talking about order again?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 04-24-2010 8:32 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Buzsaw, posted 04-24-2010 3:14 PM Son has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 21 of 51 (557292)
04-24-2010 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Percy
04-24-2010 9:08 AM


Re: Bucket, Fridge, Engine
quote:
Oh, no, the water wheel is pure thermodynamics, not an analogy. Just as the heat content of water has the potential to do work (e.g., steam pushing against and moving a piston in a steam engine), the potential energy of water in a water tank also has the potential to do work (e.g., turning a water wheel as it flows downhill).
I would think the water wheel would be more like the bucket that Rrhain mentioned. The water not available for work is the water that stays attached to the buckets, splashes, leaks or soaked into the wood if they are wood. The water at the bottom is still available for work. It just has to be returned to the top.
quote:
By the way, whether a clean or dirty rug is higher or lower in its potential to do work (lower or higher entropy) is probably impossible to figure out. Because of the analogies that are often used when explaining thermodynamics to laypeople, it is a common misconception that a dirty room has higher entropy than a clean room.
See that doesn't give me a visual since a rug or room doesn't do work. They are viewed as work to be done. From my perspective that is like the ice cube. The heat has no work to do until the ice cube is dropped in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Percy, posted 04-24-2010 9:08 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Percy, posted 04-24-2010 10:28 AM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 24 by Taq, posted 04-24-2010 11:55 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 22 of 51 (557295)
04-24-2010 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by purpledawn
04-24-2010 9:56 AM


Re: Bucket, Fridge, Engine
Oh my.
I think I maybe shouldn't have said anything. I'm really sorry, I think I've only made things harder for you. Ignore my posts and continue working with what Rrhain said.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by purpledawn, posted 04-24-2010 9:56 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 23 of 51 (557297)
04-24-2010 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by purpledawn
04-23-2010 2:11 PM


Re: Bucket, Fridge, Engine
As I was explaining to Percy, don't take lay analogies so literally. I was afraid someone would do what you just did. I'm the heat, the spill is the ice cube.
If that were the case then in the analogy you would leave part of yourself in the spill and take part of the spill back to your chair. That is what happens in thermodynamics, energy is exchanged so that it spreads evenly through the system.
IOW, it's not a very good analogy to begin with.
So it is the heat generated that is wasted. Heat that is not available to be used for anything else.
With regards to the system (the engine), it isn't useable. It is also worth noting that some of the earliest work in thermodynamics was done on steam engines and based on the Carnot Cycle principle. A google search should find all the info you need if you want to read up on it.
So entropy can be wasted energy or it can be unusable energy for a specific job.
Another way to put it is that there is no engine that is 100% effecient. All engines waste energy somewhere within the system. That is why a perpetual motion device is thermodynamically impossible.
But in the case of Percy's waterwheel, the water at the bottom is unusable energy in its present position for that specific job.
Yep, that's correct. Also, if the waterwheel were connected through an axle to another waterwheel going in the opposite direction you would not be able to move the same amount of water up the same elevation. You could move smaller amounts of water though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by purpledawn, posted 04-23-2010 2:11 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 24 of 51 (557298)
04-24-2010 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by purpledawn
04-24-2010 9:56 AM


Re: Bucket, Fridge, Engine
I would think the water wheel would be more like the bucket that Rrhain mentioned. The water not available for work is the water that stays attached to the buckets, splashes, leaks or soaked into the wood if they are wood. The water at the bottom is still available for work. It just has to be returned to the top.
Getting the water back to the top would require you to pump energy into the system. You would wind up putting more energy into the system than you get out. In real life, the sun provides the energy input for the waterwheel system by evaporating water and moving it to higher elevations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by purpledawn, posted 04-24-2010 9:56 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 25 of 51 (557299)
04-24-2010 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
04-24-2010 8:32 AM


Your assumption, of course is that from a purely natural viewpoint, there is no ID working in the universe.
We also assume that Santa Claus does not radomly thaw ice cubes either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 04-24-2010 8:32 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 26 of 51 (557300)
04-24-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by purpledawn
04-24-2010 8:08 AM


Re: Bucket, Fridge, Engine
From a laypersons standpoint equilibrium is balance, not lack of movement. That's why the water wheel doesn't give me a visual of balance. At the beginning the top is full and the bottom empty, then the top is empty and the bottom is full.
Perhaps this analogy will help. Try to balance a pencil on the tip. It doesn't like that position does it? It's unstable. The eraser side of the pencil has potential energy (gravity) which makes it unstable. When the pencil falls over that potential energy is converted to kinetic energy and the pencil winds up in a stable position (on its side). That is how the waterwheel system works. Water at a higher elevation is unstable. It has potential energy.
Is the water wheel supposed to be an analogy for heat flow?
It is a real example of potential energy being converted to kinetic energy. This results in less total energy (potential energy + kinetic energy + work done) at the end than at the beginning. The loss of useable energy is entropy.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by purpledawn, posted 04-24-2010 8:08 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by purpledawn, posted 04-24-2010 2:39 PM Taq has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 27 of 51 (557311)
04-24-2010 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Taq
04-24-2010 12:04 PM


Stable vs Unstable
quote:
Perhaps this analogy will help. Try to balance a pencil on the tip. It doesn't like that position does it? It's unstable. The eraser side of the pencil has potential energy (gravity) which makes it unstable. When the pencil falls over that potential energy is converted to kinetic energy and the pencil winds up in a stable position (on its side). That is how the waterwheel system works. Water at a higher elevation is unstable. It has potential energy.
Remember this is about layman's terms.
I understand what you're saying about the pencil, but the water wheel doesn't provide that picture. I wouldn't view the water as unstable. You're using words that mean something very different to me than they do to you concerning the situation. I wouldn't view potential energy as unstable. Potential energy has positive impression to me and unstable has a negative from my perspective. The pencil is visually unstable on a sharpened tip.
So with the pencil, where is the energy that is unavailable to do work?
quote:
It is a real example of potential energy being converted to kinetic energy. This results in less total energy (potential energy + kinetic energy + work done) at the end than at the beginning. The loss of useable energy is entropy.
So with the water wheel, you're talking about entropy concerning movement. The boiling water deals with entropy concerning heat.
The visual seems to be different depending on the type of energy being discussed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Taq, posted 04-24-2010 12:04 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Taq, posted 04-24-2010 2:57 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 28 of 51 (557314)
04-24-2010 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by purpledawn
04-24-2010 2:39 PM


Re: Stable vs Unstable
I understand what you're saying about the pencil, but the water wheel doesn't provide that picture. I wouldn't view the water as unstable.
If the water were in a stable position then it wouldn't flow downhill through the wheel. It does flow downhill and through the wheel.
You're using words that mean something very different to me than they do to you concerning the situation. I wouldn't view potential energy as unstable. Potential energy has positive impression to me and unstable has a negative from my perspective. The pencil is visually unstable on a sharpened tip.
In order to have a discussion with anyone but yourself you may need to change the way you view things a bit and get out of your comfort zone.
So with the water wheel, you're talking about entropy concerning movement. The boiling water deals with entropy concerning heat.
Both deal with kinetic energy. Hold on to your hat for just a second. Temperature is the average kinetic energy of an group of molecules, be it in a solid, liquid, or gas. The easiest to visualize is a gas. As you probably know from high school physics and from your own experience, when you increase the temperature of a gas you increase it's pressure. This is because as you add energy to a gas you make the gas molecules go faster and faster making them hit the sides of a container harder and harder. Temperature is the movement of molecules. Heat is transferred by one molecule banging into the next. In this process one molecule loses velocity while the other gains velocity. This is why temperature reaches an equilibrium.
It is the same as water banging against the water wheel.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 51 (557315)
04-24-2010 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Son
04-24-2010 9:55 AM


Comprehending The OP
Son writes:
Did you actually read the thread? What you said had nothing to do with what the participants said. The op you quoted even said that 2Lot wasn't about order, disorder , etc.... so why are you talking about order again?
Obviously, Son, I comprended more from Rrhain's OP than you did from my message. Rrhain's OP relative to 2LoT was (abe: ultimate) disorder, when in fact, what is observed is a long progression of order all the alleged way from a sub-microposcopic dot of disorderly energy to an orderly energetic universe greater than the most powerful telescopes can reach for observation, all attributed to natural and/or random processes by Rrhain, et al.
Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted in context
Edited by Buzsaw, : Add Message Title

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Son, posted 04-24-2010 9:55 AM Son has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by DrJones*, posted 04-24-2010 3:43 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 31 by Son, posted 04-24-2010 3:44 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 30 of 51 (557320)
04-24-2010 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Buzsaw
04-24-2010 3:14 PM


Re: Comprehending The OP
Rrhain's OP relative to 2LoT was (abe: ultimate) disorder
Nope, in fact he expressly states:
we have to start with making the point that entropy is a statement about energy. It isn't about "information" or "order" or "disorder."

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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