Are The Historical Respective Roles Of The Genders Relevant Today?

quote:

---

For nearly 6 milleniums most cultures understood that families function better with one having the leadership role rather than two presiding ones with equal authority.

---

Authority to do what?
What do you feel men need authority to do?

quote:

---

One area I see in modern culture is the discipline of children. It is the manly commanding lower voice, the physical strength and the relatively larger sized male that is most capable of handling the ultimate discipline of the children. We've lost much of that today with so many of the families without a male leadership role in the household. Obviously we're paying a hefty price for it culturally.

---

I guess the men who don't have low commanding voices are in big trouble. The voice is irrelevant if appropriate discipline is not administered. It doesn't matter if it's corporal discipline or non corporal discipline. Deep voiced threats without action are useless. Your children knew you would follow through with a spanking. If you hadn't followed through with the spanking, they wouldn't listen to you either because then you are all bark and no bite.IMO, that is also part of the problem today. Parents threaten discipline but don't follow through. Parents aren't on the same page when it comes to disciplining children. Parents are afraid the children will be upset with them. Schools have the same problem. Everyone seems afraid to upset the children.It has nothing to do with gender Buz, it has to do with parenting skills.The only impasse my husband and I might have is money. Not very often though. We are pretty well matched. I don't defer to him because he is the boss, I defer to his decision because he brings home the money and handles the finances. He has a better handle on what we can afford.Right now I handle my mother's finances, so she defers to me when it comes to difficult issues.Deferring to keep peace is not unusual. My guess is that your wife would not give way so easily if you were going to do something very unwise or hazardous to the family. Deferring just because you're a man is unreasonable.Why do you assume a man will always have the right or better answer?

quote:

---

I'll quote from the prophet Isaiah in the third chapter relative to the end times. This prophecy, as are all Biblical prophecies, so on the mark with our times:

---

The judgment in Isaiah 3 was for Jerusalem and Judah. It has nothing to do with the United States today. I know you feel otherwise, but the text doesn't agree with you.

---

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

---

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

Sure, but then, what is supposed to be the women's role? You still didn't say explicitely, and how is it better than the current system? You haven't shown it, you didn't even say what criteria you used in order to determine which system is better. ( the people's welfare? the country's economy?) And what evidence do you have for your position? (like statistics, examples are not enough by themselves)

How many sheckels did you pay for her, Buz?

---

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

But you're referencing a time when women weren't allowed to be in leadership roles. How do you or anyone else know how well they would have done had they been given a chance?What you need to determine is if women have done a fair or equal job as leaders in today's world, since today's world is the only time in history when women have held these roles. So, have they done a good job? That's the question.Old people always say things were better before; you're saying it now, your parents said it, and their parent said it too. It's a broken record everytime an old guy speaks about how things were in the past.And to your points about the youth of today:I think kids are just way smarter than most adults these days. I mean that honestly. I see it in my kids and in their friends. The reason why they don't listen to adults? Because I think they've realized it too.Adults are stupid, age does NOTHING for intelligence. The only people claiming adults are intelligent are (not surprisingly) adults! Adults tell kids adults are smarter - it's bias. Kids have realized this, as I did when I was growing up. And really, all they have to do is turn on the TV, especially any news source, and see just how moronic and stupid adults are. They also notice adults ruin everything.It's simple, kids are being raise by hypocrits who know just about as much as them but claim superiority. And they are become very aware of these facts.I run, during the summer, a comedy camp for kids (12-16 years old). I also teach a comedy class for adults periodically throughout the year. Every single class, without fail, of kids "gets" what is being taught to them far better than any adult in these classes. Every time. It's never the other way around. They listen better, apply was is being taught better and complain far less then adults. It's amazing to watch.So I'll say it again, youth is smart, we become stupid as soon as we hit adulthood and feel we're just smart because of it.{ABE} I did want to add this: the only thing women aren't equal to men in is in the field of humor. Sadly, women, for the most part, still aren't funny. And I dare anyone to challenge this. It's anchorMAN, not anchorLADY. And that is a scientific fact!- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

I get a chuckle out of this every time I read it.

Children have always had the capacity for rapid learning and high intelligence. The only thing they lack is life experience. It is just now in modern times, that we give them the opportunity to learn unfettered and utilizing different individualized methods of learning vice one strict totalitarian type of rote learning.Case in point, my daughter. We encourage her learning but try not to push her. She is 5 1/2 and can read 2-3 letter words. She probably could be reading on even a higher level but feel in the long run this does more harm than good by not letting her learn on her own.Every child needs to learn how to learn on their own. Every child has their own learning style and parents and teachers should accomodate these as much as possible. Smarter in that they do not have many of the hang ups and self-imposed impediments that many adults have, yes. Smarter in life experience, no.To get back on track of the OP, there is clear evidence that there is no difference in the average intelligence of girls than boys. Thus they should be treated as equals in all roles in life. JMHO.

---

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

To make the final decision when/if empasse is reached and to more or less oversee the family affairs. This is very true, PD. Consistency is very important. Neither my wife or I have had a problem in this respect. It appears that you've missunderstood me. My wife's parenting skills were very efficient. However, there were times when she felt that I should deal with a disciplinary problem after I returned home from the business. Traditionally, this has been the case, that the wife kept the house and the husband was the breadwinner. It was so in our family. That is the ideal for the children rather than being cared for by someone else while both work. Perhaps if our material wants were less, and we were more frugal, more could live on one income.I've never claimed that the man always has the right or better answer. We talk most decisions over before deciding. Often I consult my wife on what would be best, etc. The leadership role is not dictatorial in the home by any means. I've already explained that many decisions are left to my wife. She pretty much runs the home. She comes and goes where she wishes without consulting me and that's fine. I know it was, but this phenomenon of oppressive children and ruling women was not contemporaneous to ancient Israel. It's happening pretty much globally now. That the prophecy was addressed to Israel is irrevelant for that reason. It was just another of the end time prophecies.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

He's not just referencing a time when women weren't allowed to hold leadership roles - he's referencing the whole history of human civilisation. He's referencing the time of Boudicca; the time of Aethelfled, Lady of the Mercians; the time of Queen Mathilda; the time of Elizabeth I; the time of Victoria. He's referencing the Empress Isabella, the Dowager Empress Tzu-Hsi and Catherine the Great. He's referencing a vast host of women in leadership roles that don't roll of the top of my Anglo-centric head, including cultures where it was standard practice for certain women to hold positions of responsibility.Nowadays is not the first, nor the only time that women have been able to hold leadership roles. Certainly, it's more common and accepted in many parts of the world than it has been for much of their history; but the 20th century is certainly not 'the only time in history when women have held these roles'.Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.

What do you mean by 'traditionally'? The implication from your previous posts seems to be that it means 'for all of human history prior to the last few decades', but if it does then this is simply not true. Even in cultures where this might have been considered the acceptable way for things to work in polite society, economics meant that women did go out to work in practice. In Victorian Britain, when your idea of 'traditional' would have been touted as the correct way, only the women of the upper-classes stayed home and kept house all the time (well, stayed home while their servants kept house, anyway). Most women were engaged in wage-labour - often as domestic servants in the homes of the rich; but also in textiles, metal-working, pottery, retail etc. etc.Devil's Advocate discussed just a few posts back women working in colonial America, and in prmarily agricultural socieites work is almost always shared by both genders. 'Traditionally'', if anything, women have done more of it.Sorry if it seems like I'm just making the same post over and over again, but a lot of people don't seem to be taking the message on board at all. The traditional roles in the household considered proper in 1950s America were far from universal then, and are not the way societies have been organised for most of human history.

That sounded weird.I'm not averse to three swats on the butt for an egregious offense, but I have found that taking prized possessions away works more effectively to curb the ill behavior.I am curious as to what kind of corporal punishment you employed when your sons were younger. How old were they went it first began and how old when it ceased?

---

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

Buz - You sound like EvCs answer to Tony Soprano. Who could possibly say that women's liberation has passed you by when you display such progressive attitudes? I remain intrigued enough to ask for an example. Can you give a real life example of where you and your wife reached an "impasse" and you had to exercise your manly commanding voice to settle matters?Edited by Straggler, : Fix quotes

quote:

---

To make the final decision when/if empasse is reached and to more or less oversee the family affairs.

---

You say you pretty much leave decision making to your wife, so in what way do you actually lead?Why do you need to know the authority is yours to delegate? Can you give me an idea of an impasse and why you need to be the one to break the impasse as opposed to your wife who makes most of the decisions?

quote:

---

It appears that you've missunderstood me. My wife's parenting skills were very efficient. However, there were times when she felt that I should deal with a disciplinary problem after I returned home from the business.

---

I didn't misunderstand. My statements weren't reflecting on that type of deferred discipline. I was talking about no discipline. Now if you came home and didn't support your wife's decision that discipline was necessary, that also would cause problems. That goes to back to inconsistency.My sister has that problem. She doesn't follow through with consequences and when she does, her husband counters them. Now they have a teenage girl who has just started dating and defying them and they don't know what to do. Would you believe they did nothing when she stayed out past her curfew and she didn't call. Considering my sister was in the Army, I'm surprised. Hard to believe sometimes we grew up in the same household. That's a household that provides no leadership for the children. IMO, the parents lead the children. The parents don't need to lead each other.

quote:

---

I know it was, but this phenomenon of oppressive children and ruling women was not contemporaneous to ancient Israel. It's happening pretty much globally now. That the prophecy was addressed to Israel is irrevelant for that reason. It was just another of the end time prophecies.

---

In the Bible women and children were property. It would be insulting for a man to be ruled by his property. A man bought his wife (bride price). A man could sell his daughter into slavery.Isaiah was telling them how bad things were going to be. It wasn't presenting an evolving phenomenon. It was something God was going to make happen.Now that women and children are no longer property, they have the freedom to grow. Parents have to know how to raise respectful children in this culture. IMO, many parents don't know how to administer discipline, corporal or otherwise.When I was raising my daughter, people got real antsy about spanking. We were on the cusp of change. Parents were afraid to discipline their child in public for fear of being turned in as child abusers. Children now know that teachers can't administer corporal punishment. A lot of rules in our culture have made it difficult for parents to administer reasonable discipline that fits the individual child. As I said before, many parents don't want the child to suffer the consequences of their actions.The difficulties our culture is having are not because women are working or because women can "rule". If you've ever watched "Nanny 911" you'd see parents who don't know how to lead and guide their children with appropriate discipline.

---

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

Come on Buz, how many sheckels? Are you ashamed because she hasn't lived up to the price you paid for her? Do you feel you paid too much for her? Did she not bear enough seed for you? Or did it cost you your favorite goat, now you despise her for it?

---

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

Hi Son. Thanks to you and others who have been patient for responses.I apply the Biblical role of women, which was quite broad. Lydia, in the NT, a maker and seller of purple textile had a home business which afforded her the ability to keep the house, tend any children if she had any and make/sell her goods.The role of a woman is quite well articulated in the last chapter of the wisdom book of King Solomon, chapter 31 beginning with verse 10, (ASV): She diligently does what mostly pertains to the household as her husband is out being the primary breadwinner.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.