Is Jesus God?

God also identified Himself as the One who would be pierced and mourned for as an only son: "And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplications;
and they will look upon Me, whom they have pierced; and they will wail over Him with wailing as for an only son and cry bitterly over Him with bitter crying as for a firstborn son." (Zech. 12:10) The book of Revelation refers to this passage when it discribes the visible return of Jesus Christ to the tribes of the holy land in His second coming: "Behold, He [Jesus] comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him. Yes, amen." (Rev. 1:7) The pierced God refered to in Zechariah is the incarnated Jesus who was crucified for our sins in the New Testament. By this time He is God-man.He exalted the Father to the uttermost. And in turn the Father exalts the Son to the uttermost. "Therefore also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, And every tongue should openly confess that JESUS CHRIST is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:9-11)Compare this exaltation of the God-man Jesus with what Jehovah says in Isaiah 45:23,24:

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"I have sworn by Myself; A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness And will not return, That every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall swear. And it shall be said of Me, Only in Jehovah is there righteousness and strength ..." (Isa. 45:23,24a) The Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, is therefore Jehovah God from the Father.The Trinity is truth. I have shown you the Jesus is the Jehovah God who says He is pierced and mourned over as an only son.I have shown you that to Jesus as to Jehovah of the OT every knee shall bow and tongue confess.Numerous times I have had Jehovahs Witnesses to come to my doorstep. When I got down on my knees before them and gladly confessed Jesus Christ as Lord, I invited them to join me. Not once have they done so.You have never explained why Jehovah would change the name of the angel Michael to be Jesus Christ.I do not believe the angel Michael is the Lord and Savior or that we all will bow the knee to Michael and confess his lordship. Rather I believe that to bow the knee to Jesus and to confess Jesus as Lord is to also fulfill Jehovah's promise that all will bow to Him in Isa, 45:23.Jehovah does say that He will not give His glory to another (Isa. 42:8). So Trinity is a reality and the glory of God is in the face of Jesus.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The passage I quoted simply said that they would look upon Me [Jehovah] Who they have pierced. And they will mourn for Him as an only son.The "Him" must be Jesus.It is understandable that human logic would ask "Well, if Jesus if God, and God died, then who raised God up from the dead ?"God did. Who else ?
We are not commanded to be able to explain. We are commanded to believe into Christ. And that is what I have done though I could come up with many good questions just as you could.Did you ever come across the passage which reads "And the peace of God, which SURPASSES every [mans's] understanding, will ruar your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus." (Phil. 4:7)Receiving Christ into my spirit brought the peace which surpasses every man's understanding. The surpassing PEACE within convinces me that I can trust the statements of the Bible even though some of them are hard to logically reconcile.I don't think the Bible ever says "God died". But it does speak of His blood, Him being pierced. So this is very mysterious to us. But the peace of His indwelling surpasses any troubling brought about by the limitations of our ability to explain the eternal and uncreated Divine Being. Above I wrote to you that I don't think I can find a verse saying "God died". However, you know that it says Jesus died many times.Once again. I am not commanded to be able to explain. I am charged to BELIEVE and RECEIVE Christ. And the peace of God surpasses every man's understanding.Like it or not, our human minds are simply limited. But the Triune God can still impart His life and His Spirit into our being. And it brings great peace that transcends every man's limited understanding or ability to answer every question. The Bible says that the Father is God. It also says that the Son is God. It also says that the Holy Spirit is God. I say "Amen".You accuse me of lying. God will be the Judge. We will see if I am lying or not because I say that the word of God says the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God. Regardless, you should still be HAPPY to bow the knee to Jesus and confess Jesus as Lord according to (Philippians 2:9-11)Did you not read it? " ... that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." (John 5:23) There must be other reasons why you JWs cannot honor the Son. Your ploy to make Him an archangel, tragically, I consider as hypocritical as the kiss of Judas.You pretend honor. But your intention is exposed as a fighting against Jehovah incarnate as the man Jesus. First He is called Emmanuel which means God with us.
Jesus was not only called God with us. He acted like God with us. And I do not expect anyone else to come along to testify more strongly that God is with us than the human life of Jesus. This is simply wrong.At the end of the book of Revelation, after Jesus has ascended to Heaven, He says "I JESUS have sent My angel to testify to you these things ..." (Rev. 22:17)He refers to His name there, Jesus.In similar manner, AFTER His ascension He tells the persecutor Saul - "I am JESUS, whom you persecute" (Acts 9:5) Jesus is not "another" as in "another God". Jesus is, however, the Word who was God become flesh.This is the Trinity. The Three are distinct but not separate. And none of the Three is "another" God. There is no other God.But in the move of God to impart and dispense Himself into man, the Triune God passes through these "becommings" in order to arrive at being the life of man.1.) The Word became flesh (John 1:14)
2.) The last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)None of these becommings represent "another" God for there is only God.

That is fine. John has already told us that the Word that was with God and was God became flesh (John 1:1,14). You can ask all the questions you want. I have no problem in replying "I don't know." You are just being clever now. Is it not true that no passage says that God died?Yes or no?Is it not also true that according to Acts 20:28 spoke of the church of God "which He obtained theough His own blood"?We can speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent.Where does it say Michael the angel died and rose for the redemption of sinners ? We do not ignore. We participate, partake, and enjoy.I participate and enjoy the Triune God as the Bible instructs me to do. That does not mean that my limited mind can explain everything about the Triune God. If you were a partaker and enjoyer of God's life in Christ you would not spend so much time confused and confounded. We do not ignore. We confess our limitations and we receive the Holy Spirit and walk by Him. The enjoyment of God subjectively can be thwarted not only by wrong doctrines but even by right ones.You need to touch your innermost being, your human spirit in prayer and obey the command - "Receive the Holy Spirit".But in your pride you are obsessed with "Figure out the Holy Spirit"I know that Jesus is God and is man.Like Thomas, I view His resurrectred body and respond "My Lord and my God."Philosophical musings, I enjoy just as much as the next person. But I want to experience the resurrected Christ and fellowship with God. I do not let deep philosophical musings about God dying interfere with that.Jesus said "Come unto me and drink". A glass of water is also actually a very profound thing. Suppose I spent days just discussing the chemical make up of the water and refused to drink? I may boast myself on being an intellectual powerhouse. In the mean time I die of thirst.I want to receive the Triune God and live by Him. I do not want human pride to distract me with the challenge of being able to explain everything about the Triune God before I receive Him and live through Him.I think the truest understanding comes through living Christ. basically, the belief in trinity is the confession the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. That is what the Bible says. So it does not contradict Scripture at all.It may contradict human pride. I agree. But in the spirit of believing ALL that the Scipture says He had the authority to lay down His life AND the authority to take it up again (John 10:18).And He also challenges "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up."So we learn ALL that the Bible says. Furthermore the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the died is identical with the Spirit of Christ and Christ Himself in the experience of the believers: "Yet you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the SPIRIT OF GOD dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is not of Him. But if CHRIST is in you, ... And if the SPIRIT OF THE ONE WHO RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD dwells in you, He who raised Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Rom. 8:9-11) The Spirit of God is interchangeable with the Spirit of Christ. And the Spirit of Christ is interchangeable with Christ. And Christ is interchangeable with the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead.Each one is said to be indwelling the disciples. Each is a matter of God dwelling in man. So those who have been regenerated in the new birth can discern NO DIFFERENCE between these. To us Christ is the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.And to us who have received the Spirit of God, He is Christ. And He gives divine life. "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) I am not commenting further because I do not acknowledge when you write something wrong. You talk about ignoring. But you ignore when you say Jesus after ascension took on the old name Michael and I proved beyond a shadow of doubt that you were mistaken.You ignore and continue with a "business as usual" attitude. If you do not have the decency to admit you made an error I feel no obligation to further address your issues.Talking about ignoring ?? Admit that Jesus STILL refers to Himself as JESUS after His ascension to Heaven. Do that before you concoct more issues.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It is extremely mysterious to me. And not to me only but to the New Testament writer who spoke of "the mystery of God, Christ" ( Col. 2:2) Let's grant you for a moment that Jehoavah God did not die. I cannot think of a verse saying Jehovah God died. But look at the facts. The man who said that before Abraham came into being, He was the I AM, identical to Jehovah of Exodus 3.That fact is not changed by you or I asserting that God never died.Further, we may say "Jehovah never died". It does not change the fact that the Word who was God became flesh.I don't think it is too dangerous to say that Jehovah died. We may say that. Or we may simply be silent about that and confess that Jesus died.Regardless of what we feel in our conscience we can say, we do have to receive the life of God. And this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life of God. He who does not have the Son does not have the life of God (1 John 5:12)To receive the life of God is to receive God Himself. Jehovah is a God who wants to impart Himself into man that man might live God, live through God, live out God, live unto God ... have God live through him.Not only is Christ called the mystery of God. But Christ indwelling the believers is also the mystery (Col. 1:27).There is something beyond 144,000 going to Heaven. And there is something beyond Jehovah setting up a great kingdom on the earth. There is the Triune God dispensing Himself into man as divine and eternal life that man may live God. And you think that means that the angel Michael was crucified and resurrected for our salvation ? Here is does say that the prince Michael will arise. And we do see the phrase "at that time" and "until that time". That time seems to be the time of the end of the age. We see in Daniel's book that the princes spoken of are angelic messengers.How do you reason that at that time, the time of the end of the age, also means the time in which Jesus was born, lived, crucified, and resurrected ?You also quoted your version: Do you believe that the Spirit of God is the spirit of Michael the angel ?Romans 8:9-11 talks about the indwelling Spirit of God and uses some names interchangeably: This passage is not much about God establishing a physical kingdom on the earth. At least not directly is it about this.It is about man RECEIVING God that God may indwell the saved man. God does this through the Spirit of God. And that incidently is the Spirit of Christ. And that incidently is the same Person as Christ Himself. And that incidently is the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.All are spoken of in terms of indwelling the Christian, living in the Christian, being imparted into the Christian.Is Michael the archangel living in you ?Is the Spirit of Michael the archangel living in you ?Where else in the whole Bible are we told of the Spirit of Michael anyway? There are plenty of verses on the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Jesus Christ.This is a most malicious and pernicious deception that has obsessed you. The new covenant economy is Jesus Christ dwelling in the believers as the hope of glory: "To whom God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory." ( Col. 1:27) It is Christ in the believers that is the hope of expressing God in His glory - Christ in you the hope of glory. Jesus Christ is the life of God meant to be imparted into the saved that God may be lived out: "When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory. ( Col. 3:4) The New Testament is all about the indwelling of God. That is the indwelling of God in Christ and the dispensing of Christ as the Spirit into the saved that they may be born of God and live through an "organic" union with God.Where does it say that God's plan is that Michael the angel would live in me ? Tragic deception.I don't see us doing anything but going around in circles.To the question of WHICH of the angels has God said "You are My Son" your answer is "to Michael". But this is against the whole spirit and tone of Hebrews 1:5. The point of the passage is undisputably that to NO ANGEL has God said what He has said of the man Jesus. The point is that the Son of God is not an angel. There are only mentioned in the Bible the names of two angels - Gabriel and Michael. Perhaps the Latin Lucifer - "Daystar" is a third candidate for a biblical identifiable angel. "To which of the angels?" is asked as a challenge to refute. The answer is that, to no angel, either to Gabriel or to Michael, or to any other angel was it pronounced that He was Son of God.Do not make excuse that "sons of God" in Job were angels. That challenged of Hebrews 1:5 still invites the reply that NO ANGEL was designated as Son of God.Your theology totally contradicts Hebrews 1:5. And your reply to the questions is "To Michael the angel. He is Jesus the Son of God."These are the extremes you must go through to deny the incarnation of God. Around in circles.This passage does not mean that the Lord's voice is that of an archangel. How can you prove that those in heaven know Jesus as Michael ? Your Jehovah's Witness literature only teaches that. Point me to one single passage, or any passage proving that in heaven Jesus is called Michael.On the contrary. In Heaven it is the name JESUS to which every knee will bow: It does not say that the tongues in Heaven confess Michael and the tongues on earth confess Jesus. It says that the universal confession of every tongue EVERYWHERE is to the name"Jesus." Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't feel the need to further discuss Col. 2:2, firstly because your New World "translation" will not disclose the credentials and identities of the "translators". And secondly, because the English translations which you sited who do publish the credentials of their scholars were not much different from the what I quoted. "The mystery of God, Christ." . And in the same book Christ is called the mystery (Col. 4:3).Since the born child who is called Mighty God and the Son given who is called Eternal Father is also called [pehleh] - "Wonderful", to say He is the mystery is just another way of saying Christ is "Wonderful" - hard to comprehend, beyond one's powers, etc.Since Jesus says no one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and whoever the Son reveals the Father to, it stands to reason that Christ is the mystery of God. And God is a mystery unless He is revealed to us by Christ.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I will not be going over John 8:58 because the large number of Bible scholars that agree that this was Jesus identifying Himself as Jehovah God in Exodus I find more persuasive then arguments to the contrary. Jehovah the Mighty God was also in the womb of a woman for 9 months being born as indicated by Isa. 9:6.Christ is God incarnate. And Christ died and rose. That is the New Testament message. It means that Michael the prince will fight for Israel. Michael the angel was there in Daniel fighting for Israel in captivity by helpiong Daniel get messages from God. These messages were being resisted by the evil prinicipalities in the air, evil angels who have jurisdiction over nations. Michael has jurisdiction over the Israel nation.That he stands up at the end times means that he will do much of the same that he is doing in the book of Daniel in standing against the spiritual advasaries in the heavenlies.Nothing is said about Michael being born a man, living, dying, and resurrecting. Stating that an angel will stand up for his national jurisdiction does not prove that Jesus is the angel Michael or vica versa. The angels our the ministering servants of the redeemed Hebrews 1:14 - "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation"The angels are therefore the ministering and serving servants for the saints of God. In Revelation 12 when the corporate overcomers are raptured to the throne of God, the ministering angelic servants lead by Michael drive Satan down from the heavenly realms (Rev. 12:7).As the saints of God overcome through Christ, the ministering servants are empowered to fight on their behalf. This is basic to spiritual warfare. The angelic ministering servants are limited in what they can do for the saints based upon the spiritual overcoming of the saints by their obedience to God.In Joshua we saw the angelic hosts marching in the heavenlies against the evil angels in coordination with Joshua's army being one with and obedient to Jehovah.Christ's army in Revelation consist of His saints who are human - Revelation 19. Michael and his angels are angelic spirits serving the human saints. This is basic to spiritual warfare.You are confusing Michael in Revelation 12 with Jesus Christ. You have to concoct this confusion to deny that the Word who was God became flesh.You actually are in rebellion against Jehovah. I will spend more time to study this. However, the book of Daniel is unique among Bible books. In this book the viel is opened in heaven. And to a greater degree we on earth can see the angelic and spiritual warfare going on on behalf of God's people on earth. In Daniel the curtain is parted, the heavens are revealed and we see these angelic "princes" standing for various nations.And two angels are mentioned in Daniel - Gabriel and Michael. I really do not like to get distracted from Christ the Son of God by having to elaborate about angels.But for truths sake I will go back to review these matters. NO ANGEL should distract men from Jesus Christ. Paul warned of that in Colossians.This does not mean that the saints do not need the angels. It means that the centrality of the Bible is the Son of God. And the Son of God is the Word who was with God and was God become flesh.Eternal life is life beyond the typical limitations. It is not only endless in duration. It is powerful and extensive in quality. And the fact of the Triune God is evidence that the Bible is NOT the work of the human imagination. No one would ever invent such a puzzle and expect it to become a world religion.It should be obvious to the reader of the Old Testament that sometimes the Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah Himself were spoken of in an interchangeable way. And in the New Testament the Logos Who was God became flesh. Correction. The New Testament talks alot about the indwelling. You as a Jehovah's Witness IGNORE all those passages because all you see is an outward kingdom set up outside of man on the earth.It is the New Testament that talks a lot about the indwelling of the Triune God. You are speaking as an outsider to whom the experience of the indwelling is perhaps foreign to you.You are interested only in the objective kingdom as a political entity outside of man. Not that there is no physical kingdom. But there is quite a lot written about God dispensing His life and nature into man that man might LIVE through God. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)The regenerated man's spirit has become organically united with the Spirit who is the Lord. The two spirits mingle to be one spirit.Space and time do not allow me to elaborate on this this morning. But Paul (not me) is emphatic that the true test of the believer is to realize that Jesus Christ is living in them: "Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved ? ( 2 Cor. 13:7)Perhaps you are disapproved and cannot understand WHY the New Testament speaks so much about the indwelling of Christ. It is no wonder, because you are distracted with making Christ an angel. I do not deny that unity and harmony are an issue. But the unity and harmony are brought about by the indwelling of God's life which He dispenses into the saved. They are born with that divine life and must learn to walk in it. It is a mingling of God with man.Paul said that he longed for the saints in the inward parts of Christ Jesus. This means that his inward parts had been transformed, saturated and invaded by the Spirit of Jesus within him. Paul was being saturated with another life being dispensed into his inward parts. "For God is my witness how I long for you all in the inward parts of Christ Jesus." (Phil. 1:8) Paul's tender inward emotions, his bowls, so to speak, had become the inward parts of Christ Jesus. For Paul to live was Christ.And Paul spoke of Christ being magnified in his body (Phil. 1:20). He furthermore spoke of the treasure of God's life in the earthen vessels of his humanity: "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us." (2 Cor. 4:7).God had dispensed the treasure of His divine life into the vessels of the apostles humanity. The excellency of the power to endure and manifest Christ was of this dispensed divine life. They only learned to absorb Christ, be saturated with Christ, and to live Christ. This Christ is the hope of glory in the saints.Satan is distracting you from this dispensing of the Triune God into your human vessel by pre-occupying you with an outward political kingdom you are expecting and an angel called Michael.The most dangerous lie is the lie which has some element of truth in it. Sure, there is a kingdom to be established. Sure, there is a couple of angels mentioned in the Bible. You are being led astray from the central lane of God's revelation by these distractions. It means exactly what it says. The Christians being saturated with the Triune God is simultaneously their oneness with one another.By virtue of the fact that the ONE Christ lives in them all they are PERFECTED (v. 23) into a oneness with one another. That is precisely why the indwelling of the Triune God is the structure of the church. And that is why Satan is fighting against the indwelling so much.Notice that Jesus said that there must be a process of PERFECTING into this oneness as far as the saints are concerned: "I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that you have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (John 17:22,23)This "perfecting" is not instantaneous. It is not accomplished by men being born again alone. It is accomplished by the new life saturating, filling, permeating those reborn with Him.Thousands of us are in this process. Perhaps millions. The Lord knows. But Paul speaks of the climax of this perfecting in this way: "Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

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That we be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by very wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error." (Eph. 4:13,14) The PERFECTING that Jesus prayed for and the Father MUST answer is also the maturing of the saints from little children to arrive at this oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge, knowlede not of objective doctrine, but of the living Person of the Son of God.If you want to be in Jehovah's will then you must open up to the indwelling of the Triune God in Christ, for Him to dispense His life into the earthen vessel of your humanity.That is why we are forgiven of our sins in Christ. That is that Christ the Person may make His home in our hearts through faith (Eph. 3:17)The Christians are saturated with Christ in this PERFECTING that Jesus petitioned about. And in virtue of this perfecting Christ becomes their ONE inner life in practicality. They become the habitation of God in spirit, built up into the temple of the living God.This climax we have not yet arrived into. So I can not speak of full experience of it. And neither can you. You cannot deny what this means based on your rejection of the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ: "That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may beleive that you have sent Me... I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one ..." (See John 17:21-23)I can testify that many of us are in the process of being perfected. We are enjoying a foretaste of this perfecting. We are on the way. And we dare not reject the Lord's words based on the unbelief of some Jehovah's Witnesses who long to remain in the Old Testament dispensation. Yes, Jesus is a messenger. Yes, in Revelation Jesus is sometimes symbolized as "Another Angel" .Yes, in one sense Jesus is the sent Messenger. I agree with this. But Jesus Christ is not any angel in the sense of Gabriel or Michael. For Christ is God over all, blessed forever (Romans 9:5). " ... Whose are the fathers, and out of whom, as regards what is according to flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen" (Rom. 5:9 RcV) I do not like to endlessly repeat to the same person who is stubburn. But I believe I showed you before in the book of Zechariah how Jehovah of hosts is both the Sender and the One sent. Jehovah God, in that book sends Himself and is sent by Himself.So also the Angel of Jehovah is often interchangeable with Jehovah. God is the Messenger and God is the Sending of the Messenger. Quite the contrary. God sent God in the book of Zechariah.And the Word Who was WITH GOD also WAS GOD. That Word (God) became flesh. This is the incarnation of the Mighty God as a born child. And this is the incorporation of the Eternal Father into the given Son of God. See Isaiah 9:6. Jesus the Son of God was sent by the Father. In that regard He certainly is the Messenger. But the Father did not leave Him when He was sent. Rather the Father lives in Him and He in the Father. Latter perhaps. That is all the time I have.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This Jesus is available. That means we can meet Him and know Him. And because people all over the world, millions of them, can meet Him and know Him - at the same time, demonstrates that He is unusual.A mere man can relate to one person at a time. But this available Lord and Savior Jesus can intimately relate to people all over the globe at the same moment, caring for their individual situation.Because we have experienced this it is not difficult for us to accept the New Testament's claima about Jesus being God incarnate and the Son of God, the Son of Man. Have you read through one or two of the Gospels for yourself ?
Have you ever set out to completely read the 21 chapters of the Gospel of John? You should try three chapters a day until you finish it. It doesn't take long at all. Everyone should read the Gospel of John for themelves before they die. Or they should do so before Jesus comes again physically. It is good to read the Bible for yourself to see what it is YOU believe from it.Peg is a Jehovah's Witness. If you want to talk to someone who does not believe that Jesus is God, Peg is the person to talk to. But I don't think that the group Peg meets with encoureages people to read the Bible on their own.I don't think they trust people to be able to read the Gospel of John on their own apart from Watchtower literature explaining it in their terms, that they will arrive at the truth.I on the other hand heartedly encourage you not to just accept what I say about Jesus. Read through the Gospel of John and let the Spirit of God teach you directly, personally. And see what kind of impression you get about this Wonderful One Jesus Christ. The creation of the universe preceeded the birth of Jesus. But Jesus is the Man who was God incarnated. And God is from eternity. That, I think, is really what the spokesman was saying.But, again, I encourage you to verify that I speak according to what the New Testament teaches. Do not just take my word for it. While you are participating in these discussions I hope you will read for yourself the Gospel of John.I'll tell you what. When I here that a certain thing is in the Quran, I like to VERIFY it. I have one. And I do verify things people tell me are taught in the Quran.I want to see if such a thing is REALLY there. I do not assume it is there. If I speak with a Moslem about something in the Quran, I want to know that I will not be embarressed when he or she points out that I am in error.Then there is also the matter of interpretation. Read the New Testament for yourself. If you read the Gospel of John you will see what this "mere Human Being" said about Himself. Isn't it important to see what He said about Himself ? This is what the Bible says concerning this: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

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All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being." (John 1:1-3) The Word was God it says. Yet the Word was also with God, it says. So this is rather mysterious. But all things came into being through this Word which was God and with God.This Word pre-exist the human birth of the man Jesus of Nazareth. But in verse 14 we are told "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us ...." (John 1:14).Let us interpret. Before the Word became flesh, all things that exist came into being THROUGH this living and eternal Word. Then after all things came into being, ie. the creation of the universe, the Word became flesh. This eternal Person put on human nature.Does that seem a reasonable interpretation to you ?Here is another passage showing all things coming into existence THROUGH this Wonderful Person even before He became a man: " ... the Son, whom He [God] appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made the universe;

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Who [the Son and Heir] being the effulgence of His glory and the impress of His substance and upholding and bearing all things by the word of His power, having made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." (Hebrews 1:2b-3)Notice the similarity here with John 1:1,2,14. Through this Person God made the universe. The Word became flesh in John's gospel. And in the Hebrews passage He had blood to make purification of sins on His cross. Both passages say God processed the creation of the universe through this One before He was incarnated with flesh and blood and bones and a human nature.A third witness to this teaching is Paul's letter to the Colossians - (Colossians 1:15-16)" [Christ the Son] In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins; Who [the Son] is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation, Because in Him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and unto Him.""Firstborn of all creation" here does not mean as the Jehovah's Witnesses take it. They teach that it means that the Son of God was the first item God CREATED before all other things.You will have to decide for yourself. But I say that "Firstborn of all creation" in this passage means that WHEN the Word became flesh, and when the Son of God took on blood and human nature, He was the topmost and important preeminent item in all the universe. He was the Firstborn of all creation importance wise. All creation is through Him and FOR Him. So as an incarnated man He has preeminence among all the items created in the universe.God became a man. And man is a CREATION of God - (Genesis 1:26,27). So we see in Jesus the eternal uncreated God as well as the created man. We see God and man united in one Person.Flesh is no doubt an item of creation. Flesh has not always existed from eternity. Neither has human blood existed from all eternity. Only God has existed from all eternity.So when God became a man in Jesus Christ ("the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us" (John 1:14) The Infinite God united with the Finite Humanity. God is here in Jesus. And Man is here in Jesus as well. And the two natures, Divine and Human, are comingled forever.Here we see Jesus as the Eternal God saying that He died and rose and lives forever: "And when I saw Him [Christ the Son of Man], I fell at His feet as dead; and He placved His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear;

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I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:17-18) We can be certain here that Jesus is saying that He is GOd incarnate because God in the Old Testament, before the incarnation, before the birth of the man Jesus, said that He was the only God - the First and the Last: You are going to find that you will have to choose to believe EITHER the Christian New Testament OR the Muslem Quran. For they oppose one another on this major point.You, in this life, are going to have to decide WHICH one of these books you will believe on this one important point.You have to read what Jesus said about HIMSELF. Now either He was insane or deceived or lying OR TELLING THE TRUTH.Not only must you examine what Jesus said about Himself in the New Testament. You have to examine how Jesus lived and behaved. You have to ask whether or not His living backed up His claims about who He is.Did He act like God become a man ? Okay. But what did His Father do in return ? He was raised from the dead and given the highest name above all names, not only in this age but also in the age to come. That man of whom it says "the Word became flesh" and who made "purification of sins", who died and lives again forever, has been exalted by the Father forever.He served His Father and His Father exalted Him to the peak of all existence - Jesus Christ the Lord. To worship Him is to worship God. And to receive Him into our hearts is to receive God Himself into our hearts.