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Author Topic:   Are The Historical Respective Roles Of The Genders Relevant Today?
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 106 of 116 (558589)
05-02-2010 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Buzsaw
04-30-2010 9:47 PM


Slavery
The topic of slavery is a non-sequitur to the OP.

But I don't think it is. If you are going to try to justify your ideas about gender by appealing to what is traditional and Biblical, then I think we get to point out other things that are traditional and Biblical and ask if they are justified by the same means.

When you write about sexism:

How about the system which has served most cultures of humanity for nearly all of of human history.

and you write about slavery:

nearly all cultures practiced slavery

... then I think the question of slavery is fair game.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Buzsaw, posted 04-30-2010 9:47 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Coyote, posted 05-02-2010 6:12 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 107 of 116 (558590)
05-02-2010 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Dr Adequate
05-02-2010 5:49 PM


Re: Slavery
... then I think the question of slavery is fair game.

And I am still waiting for Buz to affirm that slavery is wrong.

I'm betting he won't, because slavery is approved in the bible.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-02-2010 5:49 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 108 of 116 (558597)
05-02-2010 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Buzsaw
05-01-2010 5:44 PM


Re: Becoming Blessed, Wise & Mature
1) Anyhow, PD, FYO:
Online Dictionary #1 definition of company:

Online Dictionary writes:

1. A group of persons.

That, madear is the #1 simple definition of company. So much for that.

Fallacy of equivocation much?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 05-01-2010 5:44 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
IchiBan
Member (Idle past 3221 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 109 of 116 (558700)
05-04-2010 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Coyote
04-29-2010 12:50 AM


Its obvious that you worship Heinlin but I for one find his writing's rather shallow.

You dont do science here, science is just a facade for your crusade against the Bible as it is for a lot of the folks here. At least be honest about your agenda.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Coyote, posted 04-29-2010 12:50 AM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Coyote, posted 05-04-2010 1:05 AM IchiBan has not yet responded

  
IchiBan
Member (Idle past 3221 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 110 of 116 (558702)
05-04-2010 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by purpledawn
04-30-2010 3:43 PM


Re: Becoming Blessed, Wise & Mature
The Bible talks about slavery because that is a part of mans history but it does not approve of it. Moses led his people out of slavery.

It is a non sequitur for this thread, and all it is is a tool for pretenders like coyote want to use to leverage you against the Bible. I wonder if they know whos work they are doing.

Like I said it is a non sequitur for this topic, but the coyotes here seem to always get a pass on that sort of behavior. And that is what makes this place look like an evolutionist echo chamber to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by purpledawn, posted 04-30-2010 3:43 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Huntard, posted 05-04-2010 4:29 AM IchiBan has not yet responded
 Message 113 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-04-2010 11:30 AM IchiBan has not yet responded
 Message 114 by purpledawn, posted 05-04-2010 12:40 PM IchiBan has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 111 of 116 (558704)
05-04-2010 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by IchiBan
05-04-2010 12:25 AM


Crusade against the Bible...
Its obvious that you worship Heinlin but I for one find his writing's rather shallow.

To each his own.

You dont do science here, science is just a facade for your crusade against the Bible as it is for a lot of the folks here. At least be honest about your agenda.

No, I don't do science here. I do science elsewhere and report some of the results of my work, and that of others, here.

And if you note, I only contradict the bible when it makes specific claims that can be checked against empirical evidence.

The claim of a global flood about 4,350 years ago is one that is particularly amenable to investigation by archaeology, which is what I do.

I have excavated probably 100 or more sites which contained soils of that age. I failed to find evidence of a flood. What I did find was continuity, continuity of human cultures, fauna and flora, mtDNA, and sedimentation. What was occurring before that date continued after that date. There is no evidence for a massive flood in any of the excavations have done.

One particularly telling bit of evidence: I have found evidence of genetic continuity from before to after the date of the flood. One Native American lady I worked with had direct lineal ties to a skeleton well over 5,000 years ago. (Other archaeologists have found much older lineage ties, but that is the oldest one I have.)

If there was a massive flood those ancient people would have died, and been replaced by people with mid-eastern mtDNA, kin to Noah. That did not happen.

No flood, and continuity of everything we can see. That suggests to me that there was no massive flood at about 4,350 years ago. Certainly not in the area in which I work.

Now, I don't see this as a "crusade against the Bible" but as pointing out where the claims in the bible are not supported by the evidence all around us.

How is it you can accept these claims of the bible when they are contradicted by so much empirical evidence?

If you want to discuss the flood further, please respond on one of the flood threads and we can continue there.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by IchiBan, posted 05-04-2010 12:25 AM IchiBan has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 579 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 112 of 116 (558729)
05-04-2010 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by IchiBan
05-04-2010 12:59 AM


Re: Becoming Blessed, Wise & Mature
IchiBan writes:

The Bible talks about slavery because that is a part of mans history but it does not approve of it.


Yes it does, it even has rules in it for the beating of one's slaves, what sacrifice should be made when one rapes a slave, how to hand them down as inheritance, and how one can buy his brother as a slave. If that is not condoning it, I don't know what is.

It is a non sequitur for this thread, and all it is is a tool for pretenders like coyote want to use to leverage you against the Bible. I wonder if they know whos work they are doing.

The good moral work of those who realize some things in the bible are completely and utterly evil, while other parts contain some pretty good advice.

And that is what makes this place look like an evolutionist echo chamber to me.

Because we seem to know the bible better than you makes us wrong? You've got some weird views mate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by IchiBan, posted 05-04-2010 12:59 AM IchiBan has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 113 of 116 (558780)
05-04-2010 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by IchiBan
05-04-2010 12:59 AM


Re: Becoming Blessed, Wise & Mature
The Bible talks about slavery because that is a part of mans history but it does not approve of it.

Yes, it does. Paul goes in to great detail about how to treat slaves and how to act if you were a slave. The issue is that people's version of slavery back then is not always the same as how one views it today.

Moses led his people out of slavery.

Which is irrelevant since they were the one's in bondage. The bible has numerous instances of hebrew double standards. For instance, Jews were allowed to charge interest against foreigners but not against other Jews.

It is a non sequitur for this thread, and all it is is a tool for pretenders like coyote want to use to leverage you against the Bible.

If you can't critically analyze the bible then you have no right to view its supposed infallibility. Consider a good thing, otherwise how else would you be able to defend it?

I wonder if they know whos work they are doing.

Perhaps Satan, the ultimate non-sequitur. Whenever you can't prove a point, just state your detractor is working for the devil.

Like I said it is a non sequitur for this topic, but the coyotes here seem to always get a pass on that sort of behavior. And that is what makes this place look like an evolutionist echo chamber to me.

There have been plenty of creationists who have shown up at EvC, get destroyed in debate, and run away with their tail between their legs. If it seems a little unbalanced in here, know that it's not for lack of effort on part of the creationists.

You could also argue the specifics instead of resorting to ad hominem against Coyote too. That's always a plus.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by IchiBan, posted 05-04-2010 12:59 AM IchiBan has not yet responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1741 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 114 of 116 (558787)
05-04-2010 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by IchiBan
05-04-2010 12:59 AM


Gender Roles and Slavery
The topic is about whether the historical respective roles of the genders is relevant today. Buz has said that he applies the Biblical role for women. Message 60

Women were property in the Bible and children could be sold as slaves. The wife was essentially a slave with benefits. She was purchased from her father. Women are no longer property to be bought and sold.

In Message 60, Buz gave his Biblical example from Proverbs 31:

10 A worthy woman who can find?11 The heart of her husband trusteth in her,12 She doeth him good and not evil13 She seeketh wool and flax,14 She is like the merchant-ships;15 She riseth also while it is yet night,16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it;17 She girdeth her loins with strength,18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is profitable:19 She layeth her hands to the distaff,20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor;21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household;22 She maketh for herself carpets of tapestry;23 Her husband is known in the gates,24 She maketh linen garments and selleth them,25 Strength and dignity are her clothing;26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom;27 She looketh well to the ways of her household,28 Her children rise up, and call her blessed;29 Many daughters have done worthily,30 Grace is deceitful, and beauty is vain;31 Give her of the fruit of her hands;

He thinks this means the woman only takes care of the household and feels women today should stick to the household instead of understanding that she is a wise and enterprising woman.

In Message 83, I showed the reality of the Bible times. We find that ancient women weren't confined to their looms and their kitchens, but also took on administering the finances of the family and overseeing the family business.

Their environment and culture determined the roles aside from childbearing. Our current environment and culture now determines our roles. Since life is easier, in the US anyway, a woman can support herself and survive. Women are no longer property.

So why bring forward the one idea of the man being in charge instead of couples naturally deciding for themselves and playing to the strengths of the individuals and what is economically feasible for their situation?

There is no basis for it in this day and age. The man being in charge doesn't guarantee the marriage won't fail. The Biblical value of respecting each other and treating each other well, still applies today; but the man being the authority is not a value. It's a position that made sense then, but not now for all families.

So why only bring forward male authority and the mistaken idea that women shouldn't work outside the home?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by IchiBan, posted 05-04-2010 12:59 AM IchiBan has not yet responded

  
IchiBan
Member (Idle past 3221 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 115 of 116 (558809)
05-04-2010 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Buzsaw
04-30-2010 9:47 PM


Re: Becoming Blessed, Wise & Mature
U2

"And see the bird with a leaf in her mouth
After the flood all the colors came out"

"It was a beautiful day
Beautiful day
Don't let it get away"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Buzsaw, posted 04-30-2010 9:47 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Rahvin, posted 05-04-2010 5:44 PM IchiBan has not yet responded

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 116 of 116 (558813)
05-04-2010 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by IchiBan
05-04-2010 5:34 PM


Re: Becoming Blessed, Wise & Mature
This is a forum for posting song lyrics without adding anything to the discussion now?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by IchiBan, posted 05-04-2010 5:34 PM IchiBan has not yet responded

  
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