'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible

But what about Jesus' other statements that indicate the end was near? Take both of the following together and they make sense together and are consistent ... but make Jesus a false prophet.

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[Jesus said,] For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

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Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.
(Matthew 24:27, 30-34)

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Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with the angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.’
(Matthew 16:24, 27-28)

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spam deletionEdited by AdminAsgara, : spam deletion

Peepul, these two verses are a direct lead-in to the Transfiguration which begins in the very next verse, Matthew 17:1-13. The Transfiguration is a blatant picture of the coming of the kingdom in power. Moses and Elijah are the two prominent figures of the Old Testament--two who very clearly prefigure Christ as pale reflections of the greatness that was to come.

I have recently become interested in trying to understand the beliefs of creationists. I think that many evolution/creationist debates go around in circles because the two sides have different methods of debating and that people's worldviews can be so disparate.It is difficult for me to imagine basing all of my beliefs about life on one book (which was written by a number of (fallible) human beings, in my opinion.)I know it is kind of silly to think about this because it is such an extreme hypothetical- but imagine that the Bible had never been written, or imagine you were alive before Jesus and before the Bible had been written. How do you think you would go about creating your belief system? Where would you look for answers to explain life?Thanks for any feedback and reflections! Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Very interesting verses...can anyone unlock the mystery of it beyond reasonable doubt?

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Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with the angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.’
(Matthew 16:27-28)

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[Jesus said,] For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.
(Matthew 24:27, 30-34)

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Gragbarder, you are quite right to quote this. It reinforces the sense of my original quote. It is actually more explicit than my original quote!Later on there is also this in Matthew :-

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Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

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But nothing has happened for 2000 years. Generations of people have been told to keep watch but Christ has not appeared. Generations of people have been misled into thinking Christ could come in their time.

Nope.. not entirely.There is this little factor of 'collaborating evidence'. The one thing about encyclopedias is they provide their sources. .. and it is the original source that matters, not the summation by the encylopedia.It is a matter of primary vs secondary vs Tertiary sources. An encylopedia would be far down the food chain, while primary and secondary sources would be given higher

Yep. Some Christians try to say that Jesus' failed prophecy is not a failure because it pertains to the Transfiguration. That attempted counter fails. One trenchant reason is the first quote I gave, which is clearly not talking about the Transfiguration.*************************
[Jesus said,] For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.
(Matthew 24:27, 30-34)
*************************Nope. That's not the Transfiguration .... nor is it Pentecost, or Jesus' Resurrection, or any of the other failed attempts Christians offer up.I've not had any Christian yet successfully defend Jesus from being a false prophet, as demonstrated by His failed prophecies on how quickly the Son of Man would return.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.

"For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."Maybe this is a message for Judas and any other followers looking to cash in on their association with Jesus - and maybe the 2nd death is the death they alone will "taste" for being ashamed of the son of man. If the others were faithful till the end they would not share this fate.Scripture reports Peter was restored and forgiven, but Judas was not so fortunate.

Gragbarder, you left out a little bit of Matthew 24:27-34.27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.A couple of things here. First of all, the vv. 28-29 absolutely are talking about the crucifixion, which you left out, and they absolutely did happen. Secondly, "coming" in Greek is the same word as "going," so it could easily refer to the Ascension (but it does not need to, either, as I will show). Thirdly, I don't think it could be defended that v.31 was fulfilled in the lifetime of that generation in Jesus' time, but again the Greek word does not only mean generation. It also means "race," "age," or "period of time." Go grab a Greek lexicon.
In summation, vv. 28-29 are clearly talking about the crucifixion event, and vv. 30-33 are most likely speaking of what is repeated in Revelation on the Eschaton.

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29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, , and the heavenly bodies will be shaken"

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First of all, the vv. 28-29 absolutely are talking about the crucifixion, which you left out, and they absolutely did happen.

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Hi DPowell,you can't possibly be correct. The stars have not fallen from the sky, nor have the heavenly bodies been 'shaken'. These things absolutely did not happen.it's also not right to separate the timing of v28-29 from v 30-33. You can see that because verse 30 starts 'at that time' - this is clearly happening at the same time as v28-29.Are you saying that we should interpret 'coming' as 'going'? If so, doesn't that undermine the whole concept of the second coming?

I think I would rather take a different angle than the (perhaps) mumbo-jumbo I just threw up there. I really was playing off of v.28, which is a reference to the crucifixion (the corpse), but that clearly should be taken a past reference in the time frame of what Matthew is writing about here.Go to v.3 to get some context. "As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?'"Read from v.4 down through v.34. Jesus does not actually answer the question of "when," which Jesus Himself did not claim to know but which remained only in the mind of the Father (Acts 1:6-8). In fact, skip all the way down to v.36 to see that JESUS HIMSELF in this very passage did not even claim to know the time much less to be answering the question of "when." How, then, could Jesus' use of "genea" (generation, age, race, etc.) have been a time frame qualifier?

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Maybe this is a message for Judas and any other followers looking to cash in on their association with Jesus - and maybe the 2nd death is the death they alone will "taste" for being ashamed of the son of man. If the others were faithful till the end they would not share this fate.
--------------------------Nope, the "Second death" attempt fails too.1) It involves changing what the Bible says. Jesus didn’t say anything about a second death in the passage.2) If for the sake of argument we temporarily accept that Jesus meant a second death to see if that holds, it doesn’t.a. That change would mean that Jesus was saying that SOME of those DISCIPLES standing there with Him would be going to suffer the second death. That’s not consistent with the rest of the New Testament in which only ONE DISCIPLE (Judas Iscariot) would have suffered a second death.b. NO ONE would taste the second death before the Son of Man returned, so it would not make sense to indicate that only SOME would NOT, because that implies that SOME WOULD.

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DPowell: A couple of things here. First of all, the vv. 28-29 absolutely are talking about the crucifixion, which you left out, and they absolutely did happen.

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1) Sorry to inform you of this, but the stars have not fallen from the skies!2) And of course, any Biblical or traditional claims that the sun was darkened or that the heavenly bodies were skaken when Jesus — for which there is no good evidence even existed — was allegedly crucified, are purely religious, with no good independent corroboration.3) Further, even IF we were to accept for the sake of argument that the stars have fallen from the sky (LOL!), how would that show that it was the Transfiguration that was being alluded to by Matthew and not the alleged coming of the Son of Man? It doesn’t.

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DPowell: Secondly, "coming" in Greek is the same word as "going," so it could easily refer to the Ascension (but it does not need to, either, as I will show).

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1) You are trying to change what the Bible says.
I have 6 different versions of the Bible — The KJV, NIV, NASB, AMP, ESV, and NRSV - and they all say coming, not going. The other points explain why.2) Your change doesn’t make sense with the rest.

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30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man ***GOING*** on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

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The original text is talking about a single event (as is clear from other passages in Matthew), but your change would have it being two completely different events, separated by thousands of years.Further, the nations of the earth did not mourn when Jesus WENT up: but according to the Bible, the nations of the world will when Jesus COMES back.3) Your change simply doesn’t work.
Even IF we accept for the sake of argument that the first part is talking about Jesus GOING up instead of COMING down, the rest of it is talking about Jesus sending His angels with a loud trumpet call, and the angels gathering all of Jesus’ elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. And THAT hasn’t happened yet. So the change doesn’t rescue the scriptures from themselves.

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DPowell: Thirdly, I don't think it could be defended that v.31 was fulfilled in the lifetime of that generation in Jesus' time, but again the Greek word does not only mean generation. It also means "race," "age," or "period of time." Go grab a Greek lexicon.

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Go grab a Bible!Jesus and Paul were both apocalypticists, who (quite wrongly) thought that the end was imminent. We all know the several errors Jesus made concerning this (Matthew 24:27, 30-34; Matthew 16:24, 27-28), but also consider Paul’s statements in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (example, we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord).In fact, statements indicating it was the final days are found throughout the New Testament, such as in Matthew 3:1-2, 7 and 10; 1 Peter 4:7; 1 John 2:18; Romans 13:11-12; James 5:8; and Revelation 1:1-3; 22:6-7, 12 and 20.The facts is that taking Matthew’s writing about Jesus’ prophecy for what it actually says in the Bible - this GENERATION - makes perfect sense in light of both the Biblical and the historical context.Christians twist and turn every which way, trying desperately to find loopholes and changing what is said, but to no avail. Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.