Does Creationisim preclude faith?

Okay Yaro, I'll humor you. When I was a less mature Christian I used to feel threatened by those that said science refuted what the bible stated to be fact. This has changed for me over the years as I've matured in the faith. These days, while I still consider the bible to be the inerrant word of God, what appear to be compelling scientific arguments against creationism now drive me to question my current understanding of scripture. I can give you an example of where this has been the case.For a period of time I was attending bible studies where the teachers were suggesting that the bible clearly illustrates the earth to be only 6k years old. They even offered some scientific reasoning supporting this conclusion. Some time later I was discussing this issue with a Christian friend of mine that has a PHD in Chemistry and veterinary medicine. He offered some of his understanding where the scientific arguments were concerned, but more importantly called into question biblical interpretations concerning the actual duration of the "6 days" of creation.I've since done a bit of research on the topic and have concluded that the bible doesn't even try to tell us how old the earth is. So you see in this example scientific arguments of the earth being 2 to 5 billion years old really didn't do much to threaten my faith, rather they refined it as I think I now have a more accurate understanding of scripture.Respectfully

Buzsaw, thanks for your response. Just curious, are you familiar with interpretations that hold biblical geneologies to be open, rather than closed? With respect to these interpretations mankind may be older than the 6K years. Any thoughts? There are some additional clues elswhere in the bible that suggest the days of creation weren't necessarily 24 hour days.Consider the words of Jesus in Mark 2:20: "But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day."In the beginning of the passage we see "days" being plural, but at the end we see a singular construction of the same period of time indicating "era".In the 4th chapter of Hebrews we see a potential application to the Genesis creation account. Verse 4:4 indicates that God rested on the Sabbath day, while verse 5 indicates that rest is still ongoing by way of the stating that some will not enter God's rest. If this is an accurate interpretation of this passage we're led to believe that the 7th day has exceeded a 24 hour period by far. Therefore, why can't one or more of the first 6 days also be more than a 24 hour period?Respectfully

I don't think it would affect my faith negatively as my faith has endured far more difficult and painful challenges than the theory of evolution poses. Like I alluded to in my initial response, if macro and micro evolution had been proven to me it would first lead me to question whether my understanding of the biblical account of creation was correct. If brought to a point where I couldn't reconcile the biblical account with a scientific explanation that appeared to be a fact, I would still side with the biblical explanation of the issue. I realize this appears to be rather foolish, but I would suggest this faith is evidence that God indeed exists. I can also appreciate that if there isn't a God my faith is evidence for insanity if not something worse. So be it. Also keep in mind that my faith is predicated on an active and ongoing relationship with God. From my perspective, arguments that suggest there is no God are akin to telling a married man that he has no wife. Now, I understand the difficulty here because you can't see my God like you could a married man's wife. Indeed, if I had not seen and experienced what I have over the last 12 years I wouldn't believe in God either.Respectfully

Okay, how else am I to objectively reconcile the repeated changes I've seen in my own life and that of countless others in my church and elsewhere that compliment what I see in the bible. I know some are inclined to dismiss personal testimonies by saying "well, I know of people that left Christianity and are now much happier." But this does nothing offer an objective explanation for the radical personal testimonies some churches are littered with.

Notwithstanding the fact I don't need any external validation or approval from non-Christian sources, I'm not so sure that statistics, sociology or psychology can offer a suitable explanation for the benefits I and many others enjoy within the Christian faith in light of how we view ourselves. Any thoughts on the sociological or psychological take on the fact not only do I have a low self-esteem, but in and of myself I consider myself fallen and depraved, yet I seem to enjoy and thrive in life anyway? How is this rationalized? To me it is clearly evidence that the unseen Christian God is real.Even if I exclude my own personal experience I'm not so sure I could reconcile what I see in my Christian friends without suspecting there may be something to this supernatural God they keep talking about. In other threads I've gone to great lengths trying to explain that I don't think Christianity is for everyone, only those specifically chosen (through no merit of their own) by God. Therefore, I'm in agreement that most people are better off doing something else as they weren't called to the Christian faith by God. Christianity can only be beneficial for those that have been called. Statistics illustrating this don't surprise me.

Thank you for your thoughtful response Rrhain. While I would agree that utlimately it is my faith and your lack of it that will keep us from coming together on much, I think I can offer some additional insight into some of what you've detailed. I think this is partly true in that I do associate with a community that fosters this, although I've not always lived within the Christian community. When considering this assertion against some of the details of my testimony I think it becomes inaccurate and or too simplistic.When I first became a Christian there were a number of internal and external factors that brought me saving faith in Christ. Part of it was seeing some positive things in others that were sharing their faith with me. Another significant part was a feeling inside me that said I needed something greater than myself to make it through life. Certainly it is possible that some have had a greater and more extended exposure than I did and yet ended up rejecting the faith.Another thing to consider about my faith is that I am clearly in the minority concerning some doctrinal issues within my church. I adhere to them anyway because I think they are scripturally accurate. Winning the praise of my fellow Christian's does very little for me compared to the peace my heart experiences when I stick to that which I discover to be doctrinally sound.Now, I can appreciate that you might be inclined attribute this to some sort of peer or external pressure as well, but considering what a long, twisted, and painful road was involved in getting to the point where I valued scripture more than the praise of my fellow Christian's, I don't think that to be a sound explanation. My first inclination (for many a year) was to seek the praise of others, but this didn't do much to satisfy what was going on inside me. Good point. Now I don't even entirely agree with what I wrote. A more generic statement is probably more appropriate. Namely, as a holder of a particular faith I should say I think this indicates there is something supernatural or spiritual behind what we all believe. Now, from the biblical perspective I hold, I think other faiths and belief systems (including atheism) are inspired by "the god of this age" as Jesus described Satan. Now I understand that this is not unique to Christianity. Muslims certainly hold that their God is bigger and better than my God. Which is fine.As a side note, I have a nephew that will someday be a missionary in Syria. Therefore, from my perspective, some Syrian's are destined for redemption. The apostle Paul, who penned two thirds of the New Testament, is an example of one in the sense that hearing what Christian's had to say did nothing except make him want to beat the crap out of them for their blasphemy. It was the encounter on the road to Damascus with the risen Christ that made him change his tune.That Christianity spreads through word of mouth certainly doesn't contradict scripture as Christian's are exhorted to share their faith for that very purpose.Are there any Atheists making claims about Atheism that weren't introduced to the concept of Atheism by other Atheists? I don't know that this is entirely true. A friend I've been mentoring in the Christian faith was, in his words, liberated from 40 years of homesexuality when he prayed to receive Christ two year's ago. As he describes it, after praying to receive Christ he was suddenly liberated from the internal feelings that consumned him for much of his life. The thought of engaging in that behavior suddenly began to disgust him. This, I think, is unique to those that experience the spiritual birth Jesus describes in John 3. To my knowledge, other faiths offer nothing more than repression of such feelings rather than the internal elimination and transformation my friend experienced.Respectfully[This message has been edited by kevstersmith, 09-18-2003]

I understand accepting this as evidence is a product of my faith, and I'm okay with that. As I menitoned to Rrhain, I think there is something to or rather behind these other belief systems including Atheism. That being the biblical perspective that they are all of the realm of "the god of this age" as Jesus described Satan. I am a monotheist as I believe this is what scripture indicates. However, in the Commandment and elsewhere there are implications that there are other gods that can be worshiped. But as I stated earlier I think they are all of the inferior demonic realm. This perceived unfairness is hardly unique to Christianity. Do not many Muslims believe that the Christian infadel is doomed? Where Christianity is concerned I am more concerned with relaying biblical accuracy than fairness. It is what it is.Respectfully

Sorry, bad assumption on my part. Allow me to restate it:While I would agree that utlimately it is my faith in Christ and your lack of it that will probably keep us from coming together on much.. In the United States. Consider the following verse:Matthew 7:13-14: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. "The "only a few" part is not indicative of the majority you're asserting. Contrary to popular belief authentic Christians make up a pretty small albeit unknown percentage of the people in the US. In addition to this verse consider the following.Matthew 7:21-23: "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' "This further indicates that "many" that claim to bear the name of Christ aren't Christian's where Christ is concerned. While many, if forced to choose, would say they are Christians this does not match the numbers expectation given in scripture. My own observations over the last several years has reinforced this. I disagree, I think you're missing the point. It is an internal thing independant of outside sources. In John 3 Jesus talks of being born of the spirit. He is not talking about some inner commitment or a new way of thinking or sublimation, he's referring to the person of the Holy Spirit taking up residence in you and changing your perspective. Once this happens, and not unless or until, you begin to have the inner conflict of the two natures (spirit and flesh) Paul describes in Romans 7. It is the spirit nature, that I didn't know prior to conversion, that leads me down the path I go, not external approval. Now, having the support of my fellow Christian's is nice, but this is hardly what drives me. When the apostle Paul said, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me, he was literally talking about the Spirit of Christ that was born in him.Now, keep in mind, I'm not expecting you to believe this as I think it is impossible to reconcile or accept what I'm saying without God himself choosing you to be a part of his family. To this point it doesn't appear that he's done that.John 3:8: "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." I'll concede your point that, since other faiths and or belief systems proliferate it is pointless to use the spread of Christianity as evidence for the veracity of Christianity.That Christianity doesn't generally to spread without word of mouth may lead some to question its validity is just fine. Christianity isn't supposed to appear valid to those that aren't Christians:1 Cor 2:14: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. "I know, how convenient? First, all authentic Christian's become Christian's because they were not satisfied with what not being a Christian had to offer. The sense of need God puts on the hearts of certain people is what makes them respond in faith and become a Christian. Considering your ignorant of the Spirit of God, you can't reconcile this as being anything more than peer influence.Although I like Crashfrog's answer better: The first one presumably.From a biblical prespective I don't think there is any difference between a theist that calls themself a Christian, that hasn't been born of the spirit, and an Atheist.Your remark also brings me to the predestination issue, at least where Christianity is concerned.Consider John 6:44: "No one can come to me unles the Father who sent me draws him."With this I think it is certainly possible, if not likely, that the Atheists that used to consider themselves Christian but are now Atheists weren't invited to Christ to begin with. So their educated rejection of Christ really made no difference to Christ as he never knew them anyway. Therefore, that they are now Atheists doens't do anything to dispell the validity of Christianity as they were simply trying something that wasn't available to them. You need to do more research. He mentioned to me the other day he was watching a show on TBN where a guy was giving the same testimony. If there are two, could there be three?On numerous occasions he's remarked about being in a situation where he asked himself, "geez, shouldn't I be attracted to this guy?" Weird huh? He actually talks about finding woman attractive which he asserts never happened prior to the spiritual birth.Incidentally, there is a group called Exodus International which is a Christian organization of people that used to be gay. Now, if my understanding is correct, some in the group have been liberated in the sense that my friend has, while others still struggle with temptation.Concerning other faiths or beliefs offering nothing more than repression... Please elaborate. Are you suggesting that other faiths or belief systems can offer something more than sublimation, but Christianity can't? Okay, you're certainly free to.Respectfully[This message has been edited by kevstersmith, 09-21-2003]

My goodness this is endless... Then your interpretation of what a Christian is does not match what the bible indicates a Christian is. If you think it does, prove it. Such things have an effect on the elect. Its certainly plausible that the effect on the unelect may not be all that fruitful. Again, if you can establish your belief in what a Christian is from a scriptural standpoint then do so. The simple acknowledgement your asserting runs contrary to scripture.If you don't think you need to, understand that I don't need you to accept the scriptural arguments that I've shown illustrating that most aren't Christian's. So, such things aren't supposed to bring the unelect to Christ. Only the elect. This is superfluous.If I were born in Syria it would ultimately depend on whether I was one of the elect. If I wasn't, then probably not. Negative. I'm a Christian because I was chosen, albeit certainly not on merit.Romans 8:30: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. "That many claim to be Christian's certainly is a product of all the exposure concerning the Christian faith, but as I've established scripturally (that you have yet to counter)this doesn't make them Christian's. Considering your statement that you don't believe in my God, who I consider to be The God, I think it reasonable to infer that whatever God's that have spoke to you aren't of the same superior realm that mine is. I understand this comes off as snooty, but understand I don't think my being a Christian is to my credit. Furthermore, the "my God is bigger than god's that appear to contradict him argument" is a reasonable deduction from scripture. If you can prove otherwise then do so. Otherwise I think your thinking this view to be arrogant is akin to being shooting the messenger. Which is fine if that's what you want to do. That not all authentic Christian's understand the dynamics behind their faith is understandable, but it doesn't make the dynamics any less valid. For most of Christian life I didn't understand this either.That I could easily have been indoctrinated elsewhere is something I am aware of. There but for the grace of God... First, I didn't say you didn't believe in any God. Your ignoring my self correction of this in the last reply. I'm saying, from a scriptural perspective that you believe in or know the God of the bible as I understand Him to be. This doesn't imply you don't believe in any God's as your set on asserting. Again, if you have a different understanding of scripture or don't believe in the bible as being then say so.Furthermore, no disrespect is intended. I understand that only God knows for sure who is and isn't saved. I'm content to wait out the verdict. Your assertion that 2 billion people are Christian contradicts the verses that I gave you. Fortunately, authentic Christian's don't need your approval. In fact, they should expect you to consider what their doing to be dumb.Again, 1 Cor 2:14: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. "Christians that do expect you to understand and appreciate Christianity ignore this. What makes you think you're supposed to be able determine which argument is valid when they involve the spiritual discernment of Christianity. That may be true. Because I've been born of the spirit. The double standard is hardly unique to Christianity. That it may not seem fair is fine, I'm just trying to be scripturally accurate. It is what it is. Its not supposed to appear relevant to those that haven't been born of the Christian Spirit. I'm simply proclaiming what I see in the bible, which God has given me the authority to do. I'm not acting as judge, just offering a biblical explanation for the fact that not all that claim to be Christian's are Christians no matter how bad you want them to be. Its not a product of me not liking it. I agree that only God knows for sure, and as I stated already, I'm content to wait the verdict.More later...